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There's no such market. I can't buy anything from one seller in the market and use it on a phone from another seller. You might as well say that Apple controls 100% of the iPhone app market, and declare a monopoly based on that. Similarly Apple controls 95% of the market for white USB cables with dock connectors on one end. So what. It's not a "market" within the meaning of the Federal anti-trust laws.

I am not going to claim that I am an expert on these matters. However, I highly doubt that the notion of "market" is well defined in the law in a first place (just look at the history of litigation against Intel - "market share" vs. "market segment share"). Next, if I am a software developer, I can develop apps for any platform. My market is mobile apps on all platforms. I do not think you will be arguing against the fact that there is a lot in common between mobile apps on all platforms and that with proper tools most applications can actually be developed to target all platforms. So, Apple actions affect all mobile software developers (and not just the white ones as is the case with the connectors ;))
 
Look, if CS5 becomes THE platform(which I don't think it will), it means that it's providing a need that Apple's own SDK isn't. So if Apple wants to convince developers to use its own, it needs to fill the niche that other SDK is providing. Competition will ultimately benefit the users.

Case and point: the reason why Unity3D is popular is because it's a good 3d/game framework that Apple's own SDK doens't full fill.

I think it's less of a scenario where Xcode isn't "fulfilling the need" and more of a scenario where places can downscale and say "We can use CS5 and suddenly our dev team produces one lowest common denominator version" - that LCD version will be feature dependent on the platform with the least features. So for example Apple puts all this time into Game Center in OS4, well since MS and Google obviously aren't going to be using Game Center any game made using this CS5 tech wouldn't have access to Game Center. Adobe wants to be the middleman between all mobile platforms and the developers behind them. The problem is that users will see an inferior experience on all platforms. Then the "killer apps" that make an iPhone a must have are suddenly all watered down and neutered to be on Android, WinMo, etc...

It's not a scenario Apple wants to see as a hardware vendor, nor as an App store vendor. It's certainly not a scenario I want to see as an iPhone user either.
 
Blah, blah, blah ... the license agreement impacts far more than that "*particular* way" which is what I ALREADY SAID. There are other competitive ways that Apple can protect its user experience, but Apple chose to be anti-competitive.

What part of invest more heavily in did you not read?!?!?! Apple should not be dictating what tools developers/companies choose to invest in, that is inherently anti-competitive.

Apple can dictate whatever they want for their hardware, it's not up to developers to choose what they want to code for Apple's hardware. This isn't a democracy, it's pure business.

If a company wants to make money to develop applications for Apple's app store, they have to invest their money to make money. It's not up to Apple to please them. Neither is it the government's business to dictate what can or can't Apple do for their hardware as long as Apple maintain proper business conducts.
 
I am not going to claim that I am an expert on these matters. However, I highly doubt that the notion of "market" is well defined in the law in a first place (just look at the history of litigation against Intel - "market share" vs. "market segment share"). Next, if I am a software developer, I can develop apps for any platform. My market is mobile apps on all platforms. I do not think you will be arguing against the fact that there is a lot in common between mobile apps on all platforms and that with proper tools most applications can actually be developed to target all platforms. So, Apple actions affect all mobile software developers (and not just the white ones as is the case with the connectors ;))

Argue with a Patent Attorney and start off that argument with, ``I am not going to claim that I am an expert on these matters...''

Good show.
 
I think you are wrong. You simply can not define a market without using revenues and profits. The chart that you posted, on the other hand, has nothing to do with the market. It does not actually explains what it shows but as I understand it shows how often different app stores are "used". And it does not define what "used" means. It could be just a number of unique visitors which would be totally irrelevant for commercial software developers. What matters is how much revenue respective stores generated.

From the FTC.
http://www.ftc.gov/bc/antitrust/monopolization_defined.shtm

Revenue is not relevant.

Bonus: A description of some of the issues in the Microsoft case.
 
Argue with a Patent Attorney and start off that argument with, ``I am not going to claim that I am an expert on these matters...''

Good show.

I do not see a problem with that. If I went to litigate the issue in court and started with such preamble that would be a totally different matter :D I am just trying to contribute to discussion and I am not going to pretend who I am not.
 
That's your definition of "A-ok" and the "right" way. There are certainly other valid approaches, potentially better approaches and opportunities for further innovation in those directions in the future (if this restriction from Apple was not in place).

This is clearly nothing more than an anti-competitive move to drive companies and developers to invest more heavily in the Apple APIs and tool chain.

A drive to write native applications for the platform using it's native APIs.

You're the guy in Ghostbusters asking for the plug to be pulled from the containment grid, in the Mayor's office.
 
I think FlexBuilder is pretty cool actually. C# has a cleaner look than Obj-C and can be done in Xcode. IntelliJ Idea is superior to Xcode.

Real competition is good for everyone. Apple's decision is based on wanting absolute unopposed control over the platform. I think that is a bad decision but I also think they are entitled to make that decision. In a few years we'll see if the more open mentality around Android will be superior.

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your opinions as fact.
 
From the FTC.
http://www.ftc.gov/bc/antitrust/monopolization_defined.shtm

Revenue is not relevant.

Bonus: A description of some of the issues in the Microsoft case.

I am not sure one can conclude this from the article that you referenced. The article actually says this: "Courts look at the firm's market share, but typically do not find monopoly power if the firm (or a group of firms acting in concert) has less than 50 percent of the sales of a particular product or service within a certain geographic area." It looks to me that the market is defined exactly in terms of revenues. (Also, from Wikipedia: "Revenues from a business's primary activities are reported as sales, sales revenue or net sales.")
 
No. The difference is that Adobe was actively planning a transition (32 to 64, for something like Photoshop, was seriously unlikely to have been a matter of simply re-compiling), and instead of working on a sane transition (to Cocoa) the waited around hoping that they'd be able to take an easier way out using a tool that Apple had announced their attention to be a temporary stopgap SEVEN YEARS AGO.

That's got nothing in common with Apple still slowly but surely working their way through transitions to Cocoa.

And Apple is not banning cross-compilers. That's not the point. If you really wanted to, you could probably manage to coerce Xcode into using Compiler Foo (as long as it were just acting as a C-foo compiler). And the license wouldn't necessarily bar that (at least not the parts that people are currently up in arms about). They are specifically trying to stop other companies with a penchant for underhanded lock-in tactics from getting their proprietary languages and translation/compatibility layers into Apple's own proprietary device ecosystem. Which is totally reasonable, given that Apple is the one who put the R&D into it. It may or may not be a good idea (I think it is, given the examples of history), but that's not relevant to a question of whether it's "fair" or legal.

People keep framing this like Adobe is some sort of open paragon of virtue. Nothing could possibly be further from the truth, particularly in their current incarnation. Adobe used to be about creating really interesting and useful tools; now their management (though I doubt the engineers like it) are about enhancing lock-in and embrace-and-extend.


Perhaps I wasn't being as specific as I should have been when I said apple banning cross-compilers. Yes you are correct that I could probably substitute another complier with the one from xcode and be acceptable under the new agreement, but I was talking about in context of the Flash cross-compiler, and yes it is banned.

I am not claiming Adobe is a open paragon of virtue since it is a for-profit company, but I certainly think that people rag on it more than it deserves. I am not sure how Adobe is all about enhancing lock-in, embrace and extend (like Microsoft), if they are, Apple would be guilty as such too.

Adobe was actively planning on Carbon 64 transition from CS3 to CS4 because Steve Jobs had said there would be Carbon 64. Adobe simply made their roadmap with knowledge of there being Carbon 64, and eventually it would transition to Cocoa. Is that so bad? Did Steve Jobs at the time say transition to Cocoa now or else?

When Apple killed off Carbon 64, Adobe scrapped their plan and deliver CS4 as a 32bit binary, but they still managed to go full cocoa by CS5 before other Apple pro apps. Meanwhile, Steve Jobs is calming that Adobe is being lazy. To me, that's just low.
 
Companies have the right to dictate what development tools can be used on their products. If people have a problem with it, then don't develop for it, move on, and let that platform/company die.
 
Apple can dictate whatever they want for their hardware, it's not up to developers to choose what they want to code for Apple's hardware. This isn't a democracy, it's pure business.
The problem is they aren't dictating what, they're dictating how. By telling companies they have to write original code in specific languages, they are forcing a process, not just the product on companies/developers. A company's process has significant value in both short and long-term investment.

Up until now, a development company's investment in Objective-C and Apple's tool chain was a choice, and there was potential for innovation and change from both 3rd parties and internal tools toward reducing the cost level needed for this investment. Apple has now specifically written into their license terms (in most cases changing it on top of the existing agreed to terms) that other processes are no longer a choice, and is now using their market position to force that continued investment on mobile developers. That action is clearly anti-competitive. It's up to the government if Apple has the degree of marketshare for such action to warrant antitrust-related action.
 
I think it's less of a scenario where Xcode isn't "fulfilling the need" and more of a scenario where places can downscale and say "We can use CS5 and suddenly our dev team produces one lowest common denominator version" - that LCD version will be feature dependent on the platform with the least features. So for example Apple puts all this time into Game Center in OS4, well since MS and Google obviously aren't going to be using Game Center any game made using this CS5 tech wouldn't have access to Game Center. Adobe wants to be the middleman between all mobile platforms and the developers behind them. The problem is that users will see an inferior experience on all platforms. Then the "killer apps" that make an iPhone a must have are suddenly all watered down and neutered to be on Android, WinMo, etc...

It's not a scenario Apple wants to see as a hardware vendor, nor as an App store vendor. It's certainly not a scenario I want to see as an iPhone user either.

I am glad that Apple is introducing Game Center, this allows hope of unify a game center experience. That said, Apple could work with Adobe AHEAD of time on implementing these changes, but Apple just have to be so secretive. And ultimately, Game Center also has to prove that it's awesome.

If Adobe doesn't want to follow and implement these new features, that's fine, Apple can publicly rag on them. We can rag on them. If Game Center is so awesome, people will leave Adobe for it. Darwin wins.
 
The 99% red harring

Mobile applications are not a monolithic market. The number of apps sold for the Apple platform has no effect on the number of apps sold for any other mobile platform. Apple controls 0% of the Andriod app market.
 
Companies have the right to dictate what development tools can be used on their products. If people have a problem with it, then don't develop for it, move on, and let that platform/company die.

It's not so easy for small companies to change direction when they've established their business in a certain way in which they were able to develop for multiple platforms. Suddenly, the rules change, and because the Apple app store represents 80% of their revenue, all they can do is abandon development for other platforms and stick to Apple. They don't really have a choice...
 
I think you are wrong. You simply can not define a market without using revenues and profits.

Well, if you go by revenues and profits, that drops Apple's share of the iPhone app market down to 30%. 70% of the revenues and profits are NOT Apple's. They are MINE (oh, plus about 50k other app developers as well...), because we app developers get 70% of App store revenues, not Apple.

A small number of apps in the App store (iWorks and a few others) are Apples, but not enough to boost their share of revenues much above 30%.
 
Apple making statements like they are the largest mobile manufacturer certainly don't help.

Still, a marketing statement doesn't make something a fact now does it?

Apple is by no means the largest smartphone manufacturer by units sold, only by revenue. So it kind of makes the oppositions who point rather moot.
 
The problem is they aren't dictating what, they're dictating how. By telling companies they have to write original code in specific languages, they are forcing a process, not just the product on companies/developers. A company's process has significant value in both short and long-term investment.

Up until now, a development company's investment in Objective-C and Apple's tool chain was a choice, and there was potential for innovation and change from both 3rd parties and internal tools toward reducing the cost level needed for this investment. Apple has now specifically written into their license terms (in most cases changing it on top of the existing agreed to terms) that other processes are no longer a choice, and is now using their market position to force that continued investment on mobile developers. That action is clearly anti-competitive. It's up to the government if Apple has the degree of marketshare for such action to warrant antitrust-related action.

Those companies can easily drop Apple and move on to Android, RIM, and Microsoft. Android by itself will have a much large market share by the end of the year due to the massive number of carriers it can be on. The companies have to choice to maintain their current process or adjust it to support Apple's devices.

Secondly, the company's investment becomes locked in by that third party cross-development tool. Do you not understand the problem here? By allowing other companies to develop a "compatibility or intermediate layer", it'll be up to the third party companies to dictate what features will be included for the next update. The companies will NO longer have access to the latest and greatest APIs that could be related to security issues as well as bug fixes.

Instead, any applications that were not developed with Apple's SDK and tools, the companies will risk getting rejected because their application does not have the latest API or outdated due to security risk. The companies will simply lose more time and development time by relying on the third party cross-compilers to get updated. It makes far more sense to just use the actual compiler given by Apple. And who will the companies blame for getting rejected? Apple of course, Apple still have the main choice of allowing which application to be on THEIR app store.

Apple does not have a monopoly here, nobody here can prove that, and even the in the eyes of the law, it's not a monopoly. The market share must be sustainable, Apple only have 25% of the handset market in US. The mobile app market is not an established market yet, how can you say Apple is a monopoly when it was them who expanded it greatly? Over time, Android is going to have a larger market share due to the amount of handsets being sold with it on various carriers.
 
It's not so easy for small companies to change direction when they've established their business in a certain way in which they were able to develop for multiple platforms. Suddenly, the rules change, and because the Apple app store represents 80% of their revenue, all they can do is abandon development for other platforms and stick to Apple. They don't really have a choice...

It's their choice to create applications for multiple platforms, there's no obligation for companies to be cross-platform by default. If the company want to create applications for different markets, they need to invest their money and time to do so. If Apple doesn't want to make it easy for companies to cross compile their applications, it's their choice, not the developer.
 
The same arguments could be made for Microsoft's case against the EU, which they lost.

Not really the same at all. Microsoft's almost 100% market share gave them total control over the desktop operating system MARKET.

The iPhone isn't a market, it's a device retailing within the smartphone market. No way does Apple have market share influence over the smartphone market. You only have to look at the figures quoted by the likes of Nokia, RIM and the rest to see this.

Apple is only number one in the smartphone market based on revenue. Anti-trust would require that Apple could exert such control and influence (such as Microsoft did, even though the spineless US government determined otherwise) as to force competition from the market.

This is obviously not the case as other handset manufacturers seem to be doing just fine. Apple does not ship anywhere near the most handsets, so has nothing like the power of Microsoft.

While this pathetic lawsuit is doing the rounds maybe we should include Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo in the mix too, for only allowing development of console games using their SDKs and tools.
 
The problem is they aren't dictating what, they're dictating how. By telling companies they have to write original code in specific languages, they are forcing a process, not just the product on companies/developers. A company's process has significant value in both short and long-term investment.

Yes. And if you know anything about quality manufacturing, many companies with stringent quality requirements enforce strict process requirements on their vendors.

Just try to supply a sub-component for medical devices or military avionics using just any old undocumented design or manufacturing process. You can't (in the U.S.). Often, it's a violation of some FDA or FAA regulation to not follow the dictated process, and document that you did so.

App developers are essentially vendors for sub-components of Apple's iP* device ecosystem, and thus must follow stricter development process requirements than when developing for lower quality toys, PCs and such.
 
It's their choice to create applications for multiple platforms, there's no obligation for companies to be cross-platform by default. If the company want to create applications for different markets, they need to invest their money and time to do so. If Apple doesn't want to make it easy for companies to cross compile their applications, it's their choice, not the developer.

That's fine, if they do it from the start. But not after 3 years of development and investment. I think that's where the real issue is, the rules change this late in the game...
 
Over time, Android is going to have a larger market share due to the amount of handsets being sold with it on various carriers.

Nice response and for the most part I agree, although the Android and multiple carriers thing is by no means a certainty. I mean look at how many music stores the "generic MP3 players" could use (including iTunes). That went really well for them didn't it.
 
Apple is said to have over 95% of the mobile device application sales -- which can certainly be considered a monopoly, and a huge one at that.

Get it through your head. Apple has 95% of the mobile market selling apps to their iPhone customers. You don't see apps for android phones being sold on the AppStore do you? All this shows is that iPhone/iPad/Touch owners buy more apps than users of other platforms do. So, if Apple wants things a certain way, IN THEIR STORE, then they should be allowed to.

This all boils down to (referring to the haters) they want to make money using Apple, but don't want to play by Apple's rules. If you don't like it, I'm sure Google will have no problems with you (and your app.)

My 2¢
 
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