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Look, it might be a good decision to keep Adobe's tools away from the iPhone OS.

Then why not just say so? "We believe that it is not in our best interest to approve Adobe's tools". How hard can it be?

Why all the arbitrary changes in TOS and the arguments against layers between the developer and the platform, which most developers can tell you are bogus? Why refuse to acknowledge the other frameworks not associated with Adobe? That behavior just creates apprehension among devs at best and at worst they'll drop the platform entirely.

Why ban languages other than C, C++, Obj-C, and JavaScript and not enforce the ban on anyone except Adobe?

Don't piss off the devs for your platform. Just come right out and say it instead of creating confusion. In other words, don't spread FUD.
 
and...

keep this in mind if and when the wall street journal says something to this sort. (also owned by newscorp.)


This is typical FUD from the Post. Most of the tech community is not from NYC, so I don't expect you guys to know better.

How is Apple liable of violating antitrust laws when there are more BlackBerries in the market? You have to have a monopoly in a market before being accused guilty of any antitrust statute.

Don't worry true believers. I live in New York City, and trust me the paper is a rag that my dog won't even poop on. This is just link fodder. It has the lowest circulation of any of the dailies here and is owned by Newscorp.

Enough said.
 
Forcing developers to use specific tools for developing for a platform is clearly a monopolistic behavior.

If you assume iPhone OS devices are the biggest part of its specific market, like Apple and others are stating now, and as anyone can see, if you look at the number of users, applications, maket share, revenue, media effect, sell estimations, etc, of the iPhone OS platform, then you could compare this to the Windows platform.

It will be like if Microsoft forces to use their own tools to develop applications for Windows. That will be clearly monopolistic, even when there are other "PC platforms" and "PC systems" available.

I think Apple must support multiplatform development and hence, the Flash development. The point 3.3.1 of the SDK must be corrected back.
Apple is trying to force something that will happen if it has to, if Flash has to die, it will, but trying to kill it this way is unnatural and unjust.

(sorry for my bad English)
 
Forcing developers to use specific tools for developing for a platform is clearly a monopolistic behavior.

If you assume iPhone OS devices are the biggest part of its specific market, like Apple and others are stating now, and as anyone can see, if you look at the number of users, applications, maket share, revenue, media effect, sell estimations, etc, of the iPhone OS platform, then you could compare this to the Windows platform.

It will be like if Microsoft forces to use their own tools to develop applications for Windows. That will be clearly monopolistic, even when there are other "PC platforms" and "PC systems" available.

I think Apple must support multiplatform development and hence, the Flash development. The point 3.3.1 of the SDK must be corrected back.
Apple is trying to force something that will happen if it has to, if Flash has to die, it will, but trying to kill it this way is unnatural and unjust.

(sorry for my bad English)

One problem is that Adobe's Flash is not open source.

It seems reasonable for Apple to have the right to limit development tools for their products, to those which will produce apps which will work optimally and consistently, while reducing the likelihood of complications down the road due to lags in updates and fixes of said tools.

Suggesting that Apple be required to allow a closed source environment, one which has a track record of being unreliable and problematic, would be unfair and unjust, to say the least.
 
Forcing developers to use specific tools for developing for a platform is clearly a monopolistic behavior.

No, it's not.

If you assume iPhone OS devices are the biggest part of its specific market, like Apple and others are stating now, and as anyone can see, if you look at the number of users, applications, maket share, revenue, media effect, sell estimations, etc, of the iPhone OS platform, then you could compare this to the Windows platform.

No iPhone OS device has sufficient market share in its respective market to support the claim that Apple is a monopoly in that market.

It will be like if Microsoft forces to use their own tools to develop applications for Windows. That will be clearly monopolistic, even when there are other "PC platforms" and "PC systems" available.

Microsoft is a monopoly.

I think Apple must support multiplatform development and hence, the Flash development.

Why must they?

The point 3.3.1 of the SDK must be corrected back.

Why?
 
Look, it might be a good decision to keep Adobe's tools away from the iPhone OS.

Then why not just say so? "We believe that it is not in our best interest to approve Adobe's tools". How hard can it be?

Why all the arbitrary changes in TOS and the arguments against layers between the developer and the platform, which most developers can tell you are bogus? Why refuse to acknowledge the other frameworks not associated with Adobe? That behavior just creates apprehension among devs at best and at worst they'll drop the platform entirely.

Why ban languages other than C, C++, Obj-C, and JavaScript and not enforce the ban on anyone except Adobe?

Don't piss off the devs for your platform. Just come right out and say it instead of creating confusion. In other words, don't spread FUD.

If you want to stop a tool from spreading into your platform, you ban the idea of it, not the actual product or company. This makes it clear for anybody in the future who thought about making a similar tool like Python to Obj C or something like that. Apple is banning ALL frameworks related to providing "intermediary translation or compatibility tool", not just Adobe's Flash to ObjC.

Let me repost the section 3.3.1.

3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).


The confusions are with frameworks such as Unity because they output to Xcode with ObjC of which you must compile. It's still ObjectiveC. They are not using any intermediate player between the developer and xcode to compile. The problem is Unity3D's devs are using C# to output those ObjC files, so they are in violations of the first part of section 3.3.1. They can get around it by rewriting their Unity3D into ObjC if they want to or if Apple let them slide.

Apple is allowed to let certain frameworks pass, they are after all the gatekeeper. I am sure there's a clause somewhere at the end where it says Apple can change some of the rules in this agreement anytime.

The legality of it is affected by the motivation behind it. If the investigators were to uncover an internal Apple e-mail stating that the purpose of this was to force developers to make apps that could not be easily ported to competing platforms, that would have a tremendous bearing on the outcome of the investigation. Similarly, if Apple can show that the motivation was solely to get the best user experience for iPhone users, that puts the case in an entirely different light.

Steve Jobs' letter already explained the motivations behind the change, that's the company message to everybody including the Justice department. That's the genius part of this letter. That's what they'll use as the answer if the Justice department decides to request some information from Apple. It's a pre-emptive move by Jobs and the company.

Forcing developers to use specific tools for developing for a platform is clearly a monopolistic behavior.

No, it's not. Companies are allowed to dictate which tools to use for THEIR platform. All Apple did was set a requirement of ObjC/C++/JS for source to destination. All game consoles have the same requirement for their consoles as well. Apple isn't a monopoly in the smartphone market.

If you assume iPhone OS devices are the biggest part of its specific market, like Apple and others are stating now, and as anyone can see, if you look at the number of users, applications, maket share, revenue, media effect, sell estimations, etc, of the iPhone OS platform, then you could compare this to the Windows platform.
You can't choose a specific market, it's has to be the general market. In OS market, Windows is the largest. In smartphone market, Apple is barely number two or three and even at number 1, they don't have a durable market share. It must be proven that their market share will last over time.

In US Mobile OS market, Apple once again isn't the number one. RIM's still there as one for now. Worldwide, Symbian is the number 1 monopoly.

It will be like if Microsoft forces to use their own tools to develop applications for Windows. That will be clearly monopolistic, even when there are other "PC platforms" and "PC systems" available.
Monopolies by itself aren't illegal. Also MS is already doing this with W7 phones, they are mandating Silverlight with managed .Net code for their phones using their provided tools.

I don't see why MS can't require .Net languages for its OS platform either. They should be allowed to.

I think Apple must support multiplatform development and hence, the Flash development. The point 3.3.1 of the SDK must be corrected back.
Why? Apple is allowed to dictate whatever they want for THEIR platform. It's not a democracy when it comes to businesses and companies, the owners can do whatever they want, and don't have to follow the needs of the people.

Apple is trying to force something that will happen if it has to, if Flash has to die, it will, but trying to kill it this way is unnatural and unjust.
If Apple wanted to kill Flash, they would've start with banning Flash on the desktop. Adobe is the one that's killing Flash slowly.

There's no Flash player on any mobile devices right now on the market. Apple has the right to mandate no flash just like they have the right to mandate no java on their iPhones.

Much better, WSJ reported that the FTC's inquiry is also about the iAds.

In this case, I happen to agree with the inquiry. That's something that Apple is being anti-competitive with. The fact that they aren't allowing other ads network to transmit certain data should apply to iAds as well but they are using it for the iAds, which is completely anti-competitive.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...trust_probe_about_apples_iad_service_too.html
 
Much better, WSJ reported that the FTC's inquiry is also about the iAds.

In this case, I happen to agree with the inquiry. That's something that Apple is being anti-competitive with. The fact that they aren't allowing other ads network to transmit certain data should apply to iAds as well but they are using it for the iAds, which is completely anti-competitive.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...trust_probe_about_apples_iad_service_too.html

Like I mentioned in an earlier post in response to someone else, I agree with you in general principle. However, Apple isn't getting that data from iAd. They are getting that data already. So by promoting putting everyone on equal footing, they are promoting the distribution of information about how and where I use my iPhone device to more companies. I don't want that as a consumer.
 
Like I mentioned in an earlier post in response to someone else, I agree with you in general principle. However, Apple isn't getting that data from iAd. They are getting that data already. So by promoting putting everyone on equal footing, they are promoting the distribution of information about how and where I use my iPhone device to more companies. I don't want that as a consumer.

The ads network previously were getting the information until Apple decides to put a stop to it, the question is did Apple did that to protect our privacy or to promote their advertising network? That's why FTC needs to investigate this not only on the grounds of anti-competitions but also privacy.
 
The ads network previously were getting the information until Apple decides to put a stop to it, the question is did Apple did that to protect our privacy or to promote their advertising network? That's why FTC needs to investigate this not only on the grounds of anti-competitions but also privacy.

If the end result is that our privacy is better protected, I don't care what their reason is.
 
If you want to stop a tool from spreading into your platform, you ban the idea of it, not the actual product or company. This makes it clear for anybody in the future who thought about making a similar tool like Python to Obj C or something like that. Apple is banning ALL frameworks related to providing "intermediary translation or compatibility tool", not just Adobe's Flash to ObjC.

True, but whether they will enforce the ban is still up in the air. Apple will not clarify whether a specific product is in or out. FUD, as mentioned.

Apple is allowed to let certain frameworks pass, they are after all the gatekeeper. I am sure there's a clause somewhere at the end where it says Apple can change some of the rules in this agreement anytime.

Which is fine, as long as they announce which are in and which are out. Not doing so kinda sucks for people who've made a signinficant investment in MonoTouch, Corona, Unity etc.
 
I thought this post from the Unity blog was worth posting over here:

Brilliant post that no doubt will be dismissed by non-developers or those that haven't the inkling of experience that developer has in the game development world.

Much better, WSJ reported that the FTC's inquiry is also about the iAds.

In this case, I happen to agree with the inquiry. That's something that Apple is being anti-competitive with. The fact that they aren't allowing other ads network to transmit certain data should apply to iAds as well but they are using it for the iAds, which is completely anti-competitive.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...trust_probe_about_apples_iad_service_too.html

Correction: They are investigating Google and Apple's recent purchases.

Forcing developers to use specific tools for developing for a platform is clearly a monopolistic behavior.

If you assume iPhone OS devices are the biggest part of its specific market, like Apple and others are stating now, and as anyone can see, if you look at the number of users, applications, maket share, revenue, media effect, sell estimations, etc, of the iPhone OS platform, then you could compare this to the Windows platform.

It will be like if Microsoft forces to use their own tools to develop applications for Windows. That will be clearly monopolistic, even when there are other "PC platforms" and "PC systems" available.

I think Apple must support multiplatform development and hence, the Flash development. The point 3.3.1 of the SDK must be corrected back.
Apple is trying to force something that will happen if it has to, if Flash has to die, it will, but trying to kill it this way is unnatural and unjust.

(sorry for my bad English)

Go make money on Android or use Nokia's recently purchased Qt Toolkit. You have options. Hell, hang out with Windows 7 Mobile. There is always the PSP market.
 
Good! If Apple would care more about providing user-accessible programming tools (instead of that miserable ObjectiveC pigeon dropping), more users would be developing for Apple's products.

I think this is a leftover from Avi Tevanian's days at Apple when the idea of displaying a Desktop was anathema. That was during the revenge of the geeks days.

If Steve doesn't see that most of the apps in the App Store simply suck NOT as a result of some other-then-Apple-approved programming environment but as a result of poor user interface decisions (and defective implementations) by the developers themselves, then he's hiding his head very deeply in a dark place.

Forcing users to make a decision about which platform to develop for is absurd yet that is exactly what Steve is doing. He's throwing a hand grenade into a crowded room and yelling "I hope to God no one gets hurt.":mad:
 
Then that developer is a FLASH developer and not an MOBILE APPLICATION developer. I'm a web developer, but I don't get upset because I can't write Mac apps in HTML/CSS/JS because I know that my skillset isn't viable there. This entitlement by Creative Suite users that they should be able to write an application for anything because they have CS is ridiculous.

Yet, it is this very sense of entitlement which has spurned this entire debate.

And here's your brand new iPhone application compiled from Flash CS5...running on Windows Vista! :rolleyes: Boy, Adobe sure knows how to screw things up.

Well said, I couldn't agree more. :)

They aren't. Developers are free to code for any device they wish.

As for the above "Apple wants its 30%", just take a moment to realize the opportunity Apple has given to developers to make THEIR 70% through a well run and trusted application store. All for a $99 fee! Sounds to me like it's been a beneficial situation to both parties. Quotes like the above as if Apple stepped into an existing arena and started exacting control and stealing money from developers is complete hogwash.
If they'd rather pass on the opportunity, there's always Android, Symbian, and Windows Mobile to develop for, and without the exorbitant $99 entrance fee. ;)
 
I don't see what the big deal is.

Before porting, all software was made specifically for there platform.

Job's is right about one thing; if we have learned anything from porting with video game consoles. Videos have displayed poor quality and lesser gamer satisfaction with ported games.

Dedicated platform development has always been better.
 
I don't see what the big deal is.

Before porting, all software was made specifically for there platform.

Job's is right about one thing; if we have learned anything from porting with video game consoles. Videos have displayed poor quality and lesser gamer satisfaction with ported games.

Dedicated platform development has always been better.

This pertains even more so to mobile platforms.
 
IMO, the topic of Flash dilutes the issue. The problem is that given the following hypothetical:

Program A: Written using Objective-C in the XCode IDE. Given more than a cursory once over, this particular app is riddled with a minefield of memory leaks and other issues.

Program B: Written using a forbidden language and then compiled into a 100% compatible iPhone OS executable app, tuned to run smoothly and efficiently by the compiler's author.

Program A passes inspection and Program B does not. This is the problem. Although I am inclined to believe Apple's official reasoning and that they aren't behaving this way simply to be jerks, I do think it undermines their message when the rules they say are in place to protect the end user's experience don't necessarily have anything to do with the end user's experience.

You are correct per se that this has nothing to do with flash. Also, the example above is not the main issue/concern.

The primary issue is having a middlewear company that can assume control of the platform and its success. As a developer you are at the mercy of that middlewear company incorporating the API's etc. Otherwise development lags the platform or stagnates. Apple has been here before and does not want to repeat.

When Apple was the only app store in town this was not ans much of an issue. 4.0 has huge enhancements for the way apps can work and interact and Apple wants developers to take advantage and advance the platform ASAP. With the advent of Android and its adoption, Apple does not want to take any chances that there development is at the mercy of other suppliers. I also would not be surprised if the development cycle escalates somewhat for iphone os updates to ward off Android as well.
 
Some people are missing the point of the investigation

It's not about making Apple do anything extra. It's about whether or not they're denying the use of some tools only to stifle competition.

The government is concerned, on hehalf of developers, that Apple's new rule arbitrarily raises the cost of supporting multiple platforms.

Cross platform development is a time honored way for businesses to target more markets.

For example: Let's say it costs a company $100,000 to develop an app for one device. Using a cross-platform tool, the cost for each additional device could be as low as $1,000 for some testing. Without the tool, the cost to rewrite could be prohibitive.

That additional cost to third party companies is what the investigation is about. So the question will be if Apple's new rules have a good basis for existing, other than to simply slow down app porting to other platforms.

(If cross-platform tools have already been used to make existing iPhone apps, Apple is going to have a difficult time supporting the need for a rule change.)
 
Good! If Apple would care more about providing user-accessible programming tools (instead of that miserable ObjectiveC pigeon dropping), more users would be developing for Apple's products.

I think this is a leftover from Avi Tevanian's days at Apple when the idea of displaying a Desktop was anathema. That was during the revenge of the geeks days.

If Steve doesn't see that most of the apps in the App Store simply suck NOT as a result of some other-then-Apple-approved programming environment but as a result of poor user interface decisions (and defective implementations) by the developers themselves, then he's hiding his head very deeply in a dark place.

Forcing users to make a decision about which platform to develop for is absurd yet that is exactly what Steve is doing. He's throwing a hand grenade into a crowded room and yelling "I hope to God no one gets hurt.":mad:

You're effectively saying specialization is bad. When developing cross-platform, you have to build for the lowest-common denominator. That's logic, not opinion.

There isn't any problem with the tools being user-accessible. The "problem" is that many developers don't know Objective C. Even more so, developers don't know Cocoa/Cocoa touch. The solution is simple: learn it or hire someone who has the experience.

The whole situation is ridiculous. Apple hasn't said that you can't use other tools, just that code needs to link directly against their frameworks. Cross-compilers require that APIs are implemented twice. Last time I checked, it takes longer to do something twice than it does to do it once. Apple is saying the extra time stifles progress. Again, this is simple logic.

UPDATE: To clarify, I don't remember seeing "Xcode" anywhere in the App Store requirements.

It's not about making Apple do anything extra. It's about whether or not they're denying the use of some tools only to stifle competition.

The government is concerned, on hehalf of developers, that Apple's new rule arbitrarily raises the cost of supporting multiple platforms.

Cross platform development is a time honored way for businesses to target more markets.

For example: Let's say it costs a company $100,000 to develop an app for one device. Using a cross-platform tool, the cost for each additional device could be as low as $1,000 for some testing. Without the tool, the cost to rewrite could be prohibitive.

That additional cost to third party companies is what the investigation is about. So the question will be if Apple's new rules have a good basis for existing, other than to simply slow down app porting to other platforms.

(If cross-platform tools have already been used to make existing iPhone apps, Apple is going to have a difficult time supporting the need for a rule change.)

That's nice of the government. So, they're trying to save developers money? The cross-platform tools existed without any issue to this point because Apple wasn't worried about them taking over the platform development.

Everyone needs to remember that Apple could make a lot more money with Flash on the App Store than they can without it. True, they sell computers to developers who want to write for the iPhone, but imagine if every Flash developer could give Apple 30% of their profits.

There's another side to the argument as well. Allowing cross-platform development on the store commodifies those who have taken the time to learn Objective C and Cocoa/Cocoa touch.
 
It's not about making Apple do anything extra. It's about whether or not they're denying the use of some tools only to stifle competition.

In which market?

The government is concerned, on hehalf of developers, that Apple's new rule arbitrarily raises the cost of supporting multiple platforms.

What gives you that idea? There is no law saying that it has to be easy to support multiple platforms.

Cross platform development is a time honored way for businesses to target more markets.

:rolleyes:

For example: Let's say it costs a company $100,000 to develop an app for one device. Using a cross-platform tool, the cost for each additional device could be as low as $1,000 for some testing. Without the tool, the cost to rewrite could be prohibitive.

So?

That additional cost to third party companies is what the investigation is about.

What makes you think so?

So the question will be if Apple's new rules have a good basis for existing, other than to simply slow down app porting to other platforms.

Apple's motives will be investigated, but it has nothing to do with app porting.

(If cross-platform tools have already been used to make existing iPhone apps, Apple is going to have a difficult time supporting the need for a rule change.)

Jobs presented a very clear business justification for the rule change in his "Thoughts on Flash." The only way the government will have a case is if they find evidence that the primary reason for the change was to prevent competition and not the reason that Jobs presented. Plus they would have other significant burdens to meet in proving market power.
 
The only way the government will have a case is if they find evidence that the primary reason for the change was to prevent competition and not the reason that Jobs presented.

Well, yeah. Not sure why you're fighting me, since you're just repeatng what I said:

Originally Posted by kdarling
It's about whether or not they're denying the use of some tools only to stifle competition.
...
So the question will be if Apple's new rules have a good basis for existing, other than to simply slow down app porting to other platforms.

And yes, obviously cost is part of that. (I know a developer in one of the companies presenting evidence to the government in this complaint. I'm not a teenager here, you know.)

I'm still thinking that it's possible the FCC will rule that the App Store is subject to net neutrality rules. Apple is using the same arguments that cable and phone companies tried twenty years ago to prevent third party apps over their lines... and lost at.
 
I'm still thinking that it's possible the FCC will rule that the App Store is subject to net neutrality rules. Apple is using the same arguments that cable and phone companies tried twenty years ago to prevent third party apps over their lines... and lost at.

Are you arguing that Apple is a common carrier or has that legal status?

Hm. That's novel.
 
Well, yeah. Not sure why you're fighting me, since you're just repeatng what I said:

And yes, obviously cost is part of that. (I know a developer in one of the companies presenting evidence to the government in this complaint. I'm not a teenager here, you know.)

I'm not fighting you. I didn't imply that you were a kid. I just asked some questions (that you did not answer.)

I agree with the basic point that you just quoted, as I noted in my last post. I disagree with your claim that this investigation is about app porting. I also disagree that Apple would have a "difficult time" supporting their business justification for the rule change.
 
Are you arguing that Apple is a common carrier or has that legal status?

Of course not. But they're a key "orifice", and I can visualize the FCC extending the net neutrality concept:

Net neutrality requires not blocking apps arbitrarily. So ATT tries not to do so, especially after the FCC caught them giving "advice" to Apple.

However, the next step is Apple, and they do not allow users to download apps from anywhere other than their sole App Store. So now Apple has become the primary blocking point, in this case using the same reasons that carriers used to give: quality, morality, and needing extra control over future APIs.

I was heavily involved in the first net neutrality fallout twenty years ago. It just all feels familiar to me again :) Could also mean nothing except that I'm getting old. lol
 
The issue in my eyes is, why bother apple? If someone writes a crappy app using a cross compiler. It won't sell, If you have that much faith in HTML5, let it win the fight (like Blu-ray vs HD DVD). Let it go away on its own. If it truly is an antiquated framework/language/system, it will disappear.

Another approach could be apple helping adobe improve flash. What is flash/flex missing? What makes it a poor buggy framework? What, in apple's opinion would help improve it?

Flash has a place in the future of the web IMO. Let's take advertising for an example. With flash ads are dynamically loaded as one swf. And it gives full interaction, font control, video etc. To do that with HTML5 and Javascript, you would have to load, the javascript, fonts, and media. Separate, or do some kind of iframe. Having an encapsulated SWF makes much more sense. (unless I'm missing something, which I may)

Also saying they only use open platforms, but then they themselves close off their device is nice misdirection. Android is far more 'open'.

I'm a long time apple fan, and an even longer time Adobe fan, and I think this is poor form on apple.

If adobe could afford it, (I'm sure they can't) they could pull all of CS from Apple. And apple computers would go away. I'm quite confident, (though may be wrong) that it's still professionals that keep apple going. And with out the professional utilities on os x, we would have to go to a windows based platform. And if Adobe offered its Creative Suite to something like Ubuntu, I would probably make the switch.

Just a rant :D Please don't attack me.
 
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