Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Assuming the Post story is even accurate, this will pass. Likely Adobe complained, and they're looking into it. That's all.

The only argument seems to be somehow this restricts development for other platforms. That's ridiculous. Apple isn't baring developers from doing things per its licensing agreement, or even a threat of retaliating. Microsoft did much worse.

Apple wants to control its own product and there's nothing wrong with that. If you WANT to develop for it, use approved tools for the good of all involved. Apple has gotten burned by depending on others, and I don't blame them at all for not wanting to depend on Adobe. Adobe after all seems more interested in churning out paid upgrades than supporting existing products. How fun would it be to have to wait for CS6 to have multitasking in your favorite app?
 
please, there's enough memory leaking junk on the app store written in objective-c already. we don't need certified fart apps. :rolleyes:

That brings up a good point. With the horsepower on the recent iFoo devices, the Obj-C 2.0 GC needs to be enabled for Cocoa Touch yesterday. There's no overhead excuse anymore.
 
The point is though is that come iPhone OS 4.0 if flash converted apps don't take advantage of multi-tasking correctly and run poorly, then guess who people are going to blame? Not the dev's, but Apple.

You would be like the first person to do that.

If a game or app is badly designed and slow, and there are PLENTY of other apps around that are fast + fun, no one's blaming Apple. Read the app reviews and see for yourself.

Secondly, the alleged issues with multitasking are only an entirely unsubstianted claim and not a fact. If they really run poorly, people will use native apps instead.
 
I 'kind of' understand that, like the Flash Plugin on the desktop, they don't want tons of crashes that they have no control over fixing.

If I'm allowed to release a Flash compiled app for the iPhone and it starts bombing, and then 42,000 others do the same, there's a lot of apps on the iPhone that Apple wouldn't have control over.

Last thing they want is everyone saying "My iPhone crashes ALL the time" and not be able to do anything about it. ESPECIALLY with multitasking coming and maybe somewhat hard to put the 'blame' on what is crashing the phone as it might be a background app?

No this is not correct. This is not about Flash player. This is about coding something in the Flash system that is then "rendered" for iDevices, as if they were coded in Apple's native SDK. As such, the resulting render is just an app, much like any other app, and Apple has just as much control over that app crashing 42K times, or 42K Flash SDK created apps crashing. Apple can simply turn them off (or apparently Apple even reserves the capability to delete them from your iDevice) just like they can with any Apple SDK-created apps that prove buggy.

The "loss of control" is about the idea of the iDevice platform moving forward while these other iPhone app compliers lag behind. More simply, Apple rolls out new iDevice OS features and naturally these alternative compilers would need to be updated so that subsequent programming of updates or new apps could take advantage of those new features. It doesn't mean that all the Apps coded that way would break, not run, etc- just like any other App coded in Apple's SDK keeps running just fine as the iDevice OS moves forward. It would just mean that new OS features would not be able to be incorporated by App developers until these other platforms were updated to accommodate the new coding options. That lag between how long it takes for them to update is the "loss of control" thrown around as part of the whole mix of bash-Flash arguments. The fact is that multiple App SDK programs could drive competition in terms of putting dev tools in the hands of programmers that make it possible to do great things more easily. Competition is always good for end users.

There are tons and tons of games & applications on the net that are not yet in the App store. A great deal of these Apps are coded in Flash. With Adobe's solution, those could be fairly easily transcoded for iDevices, which could bring tons of "new" games & applications to iDevices in the near term. Instead, Apple's block means those reasonably ready to transcode programs cannot come over so quickly... and not at all unless the developers then learns Apples ONE way of coding for iDevices, and then chooses to port that program.

If we put ourselves in the shoes of the little app developers, the ability to develop in a platform that could then render for multiple OSs on multiple devices just means that they can bring their "wow" apps to lots of mobile devices at the same time, rather than having to learn one coding environment for one line of devices, then another for another set of devices and so on. That would give them the capability to make a lot more money by rolling out their App on multiple platforms, which then becomes the tangible fuel for creating more great Apps from that person(s).

Very, very simply: if certain great apps would only come to the iDevices via the Flash transcoder, Apple's block means those great apps do NOT come to the iDevices, unless the coder then takes it upon him/her/themselves to learn to also code in Apple's SDK. I'd rather have the choice of having those apps (NOW), than have Apple's move block them- or delay them- from coming to the iDevices. As with so much of this bash-Flash crap, it would be so much nicer if Apple would allow us to choose for ourselves.
 
Unless I'm missing something, 3.3.1 doesn't ban 3rd party development tools, it simply sets strict requirements on them. That is a very, very big difference.

This wouldn't have been an issue if Adobe had simply approached Apple about the cross-compiler when they originally planned the functionality. Flash developers would have never started building applications for the App Store had Adobe not promised it without investigating it with Apple. Before Adobe's announcement, nobody expected to be able to build Flash applications for the iPhone. Flash performance isn't the only thing Adobe has handled poorly here.

It's frustrating to see tools like Unity caught in the crossfire here. That said, their response to the changes, to me, exemplifies the mature way to respond:

http://blogs.unity3d.com/2010/04/14/unity-and-the-iphone-os-4-0-update/

I think Apple is wrong to have sprung this change without warning. That said, Apple has never mislead anyone about the control they are exercising over the App Store and the iPhone. When you begin developing for the iPhone, you need to consider whose platform you are building for.

Luke
 
Easy solution, allow Flash apps but for each Flash based download have users scroll and click through 100 pages of warnings and disclaimers, 1 sentence at a time. Let's see how badly users really want Flash.

I'd like to know how many Adobe and Google lobbyists leaned on officials to launch this.
 
Bingo! Apple has a monopoly in the app market. They control something like 90%+ of this market. This is separate and distinct from the smartphone market, where Apple don't have a monopoly. Apple are using it's monopoly on the app market to dictate what tools developers can use to make apps. This is an abuse of their position, and should rightfully be stopped.

From my Black's Law Dictionary: Monopoly "1. Control or advantage obtained by one supplier or producer over the commercial market within a given region. 2. The market condition existing when only one economic entity produces a particular product or provides a particular service."

How does Apple have a monopoly on the App Market? Do they prevent App makers from making products for other smart phones? No they just implement restrictions on their phones and app development. It is not Apple's fault that the eco systems of Android, Winmo, and BBerry are behind the times. Apple made it easier for developers and consumers to come together in the market place and interact. That Apple has their own entry requirements to come into their "flea market" does not make them a monopoly as there are plenty of other flea markets available for developers to try and sell their wares at.

Also to another poster and their GM analogy, if GM said if you buy this car and you can only buy gas and tires from us guess what? No problems, there is no monopoly there either. The market will likely shut that product down faster than you can make up another analogy that does not make sense. People will be free to buy Fords, GMs, Chyrslers that don't impose that restriction.
 
I really don't want flash on my device or have to hear every wacko out their complaining about how flash has reduced their battery life to nothing. Flash has lived past its Golden Years and now needs to be retired.

So don't install it.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be "banned".

This is the sort of thinking that needs to be stopped. Our hardware is no longer ours as long as they can dictate what runs on it!
 
While this is a good move I just don't see how Apple could lose.

iPhone is far from a monopoly, and surely Apple can dictate what tools are used to develop with? Developers are quite welcome to drop Apple mobile development and be quite happy to continue with other smartphone platforms.

You do not need to be a monopoly to get in trouble for anti trust. The company just have to be in a position of massive market influence. Apple right now has a market power to do massive control of app development.

The app store can be argue that it is not the only smart phone in town but the part on limiting app development is taking the largest app store by far which is limited to only one phone really hurts.

Apple has a lot of market influence and that is the ground they are risking getting in trouble on.

No, I don't remember anything similar happening to MS during the time their OS was on less than 50% of all personal computers.

How long ago was that? Before the WWW was even invented I think.


Remember our resident die hard apple fanboy here posted an article that stated that well over 90% of all app sold for smart phones were done threw the app store. Kind of gives apple a lot of power to screw with app development.
 
serves them right I guess

I'm guessing Jobs is a flaming liberal. How do you like your big government nanny state now stevey????
 
If the government does get involved, I am sure they will find a way to ruin the iPhone/iPad as the government ruins anything it touches.
 
Do you think General Motors would get away with it when they forced their customers to buy tires and gas only from them? I don't think so.

That's a really poor analogy, but I will tell you something, General Motors does decide which tires are going on that car when you buy it. They also compel you to use which type of fuel. Of course you're free to put diesel in a petrol automobile's engine, but the user experience may suffer as a result.

And if the system which controls the car is embedded Windows, will you argue that an Apple developer suffers as a result and force General Motors to allow us to choose whichever system to control the car that we developers want?

You can still build apps for the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad, but if you don't adhere to Apple's rules you won't get listed in their marketplace. There are avenues for you to sell that app, just not through Apple.
 
It's all about the apps!

I'm with Apple on this one. The bit about adding a middle layer to the development process is right on. Why should Apple, who made the iPhone platform what it is, be forced to give up the ability to control how it works? If you think Adobe's CS5 Flash compiler is going to be able to produce the same quality of apps as XCode you're dreaming!

The idea here is Adobe wants to force Apple's hand so they can sell Flash CS5 and deem it as the be all end all of mobile development, where developers can (and will) develop for CS5 and NOT for iPhone. Then iPhone, Android, WinMo, Blackberry, etc.. all get the exact same app.

The problem is CS5 becomes the platform, then Apple's innovations in the OS upgrades are at the mercy of when Adobe will support them, and anything that's not available on Android, WinMo, etc.. will not be supported to keep cross platform compatibility. Adobe is playing for all the marbles here.
 
Or, Apple could start shipping a Flash Runner app wih iPhone OS (which does nothing) and then reject all Flash apps based on the "duplicates existing functionality" clause.
 
It's high time someone stood up to the power hungry Apple. Hope this is not just some prearranged dog and pony show to give the illusion of due diligence on the behalf of the us government.
Wait, so you want government help in bringing down Apple a peg? The "socialist" government you apparently despise? I wonder if you realize just how confused you look here.
 
It is? I was told I'd have to pay when I went to d/l the iPhone SDK.

You can download the SDK for free.

To those who suggest the $99 fee when considering the benefits of the Flash packager, you need to rethink your argument. Even if the cross-compiler were allowed, you would still have to pay the $99 to Apple. You're paying to register with them, to setup your accounting information for royalties, to obtain your development certificate, etc. You could argue that applications shouldn't need to be signed, but unless you take that position, I don't see how the $99 is unreasonable.
 
while I disagree with the way apple does business as of late... I understand why they do it, and I don't blame them. The iPhone user experience is so good (except for the phone part when using att) and its because of apples insanely strict rules... I don't like the rules, so I wont buy an iPhone or iPad... its that simple... I don't think anything will come of this case as android is gaining on iphoneOS market share every day and apps are growing for it rather steadily as well.. so there is no way anyone can make any sort of claim that apple has a monopoly in the smartphone industry.. they are just the most strict company out there...

part of me actually hopes google can get their act together and get android up to par with iPhone OS... or (I know im dreaming here but..) if HPalm could get webOS apps up to par and provide a serious amount of competition for the iPhone then the market would force apple to change its rules... until then, apple is in control and there is nothing anyone else can do about it. I would love to see flash running on android and webOS so I can know for sure how well (or poorly) it will work and how it will effect the phones battery life because IF it does run well with no significant drain on battery life or performance... then apple will really look dumb.. but I doubt this will be the case.
 
That brings up a good point. With the horsepower on the recent iFoo devices, the Obj-C 2.0 GC needs to be enabled for Cocoa Touch yesterday. There's no overhead excuse anymore.

As a programmer, I am glad we are forced managed memory. I think it's not a big deal to release everything you alloc, and it is good as discipline. If your program is so twisted you can not track the allocs, then it is likely a design flaw.

I certainly don't know how smart garbage collectors have become these days, but I find it hard to believe they know better than you your program's overall structure.

Nevertheless, some feature that wraps the mallocs/frees and recycles memory could be good. Allocating fresh memory can be expensive.
 
Sometime similar happened with Microsoft over Windows OS, remember? IE was the default browser in Windows, and that led to an anti-trust lawsuit.

*sigh* again

No, nothing was similar.
Microsoft had 90%+ market share of ALL COMPUTER OSs at the time the antitrust case was opened. You didn't have a choice when you bought a new PC(*). Until today pretty much all PCs come with a Windows license and you have no way to save the money and say you'd want no OS on it (or Linux instead). Also, the huge Windows market share created a situation in which most applications were only available for Windows. While this is not a result of Microsoft's wrongdoing, it still created a lock-in situation that Microsoft cleverly abused. So, the issue never was the monopoly itself, but its abuse to gain an unfair advantage for other products like IE and Media Player.

The powers have shifted slightly since then, the Mac platform has become more powerful, and more software is coded multi-platform now. Still, the monopoly is still in place and Microsoft is still looking for opportunities to make use of it (I do not say 'abuse' here, right?). They can do whatever they want, as long as it's legal.


(*) Mac OS cannot be seen as a full alternative to Windows as it's bundled with specific high-end hardware that does not meet the demands of the entire market (especially not in the corporate world). Also at that time, the Mac platform was in really bad shape. Not MS's fault, but a fact that limited choice.
 
I am no lawyer, but my mother was relatively high up in the anti-trust division of the Justice department and she used to talk to me about what her job was meant to accomplish. I believe some people posting here have hit the nail on the head - this is not about the end-user experience of the iPhone. It's about the development environment. Apple sells its development environment and then concocts a rather absurd license agreement that excludes its competitors' cross-platform development environment from being used for the iPhone. That's an anti-competitive practice that certainly should be looked into, particular since the iPhone is such a large market. All Adobe has to do is demonstrate that their cross-platform product is capable of running a simple program as fast as one coded in Apple's development environment and Apple will be in deep doo-doo.

As for the argument that Apple doesn't have a monopoly and should therefore be immune to this sort of scrutiny, the whole point of the anti-trust legislation is to prevent the formation of monopolies in the first place.

In any case, I think all of this makes Apple look silly. If I were a developer I'd be quite angry that the App store is judging apps not on the end-user experience, but on the tools that were used to make them. I dare say that using some C and its variants does not preclude poor programming & wasted CPU cycles, nor does it necessarily follow that a cross-platform IDE leads to detectably poorer performance. As somebody noted, if you want truly optimized code, abandon C and its variants altogether and program in assembly language...
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.