Apple Facing iPhone Security Battle With Indian Government

[macintoshmac]

Well bank interest is an income.. as you said all incomes are taxable, principal is tax free. Whats unjust in it?

well we are not very fond of paying taxes are we? but I believe it's similar in many other countries including US. States in US imposes taxes like VAT & local taxes too.

Sajal, this is not about fondness for paying taxes or not. There is no need to be snarky.

The point I was making about this was that when we use our income after tax, for buying a simple loaf of bread, or for buying an iPhone, we pay a sales tax. When we recharge our prepaid phones, or when we pay our postpaid bills, we pay service tax. What income has been generated here for which we are required to be taxed? (based on your first response)

 

[Chatter]

Sajal, this is not about fondness for paying taxes or not. There is no need to be snarky.

The point I was making about this was that when we use our income after tax, for buying a simple loaf of bread, or for buying an iPhone, we pay a sales tax. When we recharge our prepaid phones, or when we pay our postpaid bills, we pay service tax. What income has been generated here for which we are required to be taxed? (based on your first response)

He isnt being snarky. I dont think he understands the bigger picture.

 

[FriednTested]

Caste system in India, racism across the world. Same thing, different clothes. So, caste system is a moot point.

On another note, I for one am totally up for all international businesses giving India a middle-finger due to this. And I am against this only because this "initiative" by the government has no real benefit for the end user, but has every advantage for the government to keep track of citizens and mind you, this is only for taxation purposes, it is not that they will bother if this taxed citizen is able to make two ends meet or is victim to police harassment or anything. All they care about is tax revenue. This is something all political parties never have any argument about.

I have shame, and embarrassment, being Indian myself, but such actions by governments which have no benefit for citizens are just poor publicity and breed resentment alone.

I am Indian. And currently live in Bombay. All our governments are jokes. Recently the boss of Kingfisher escaped by defaulting Rs. 7000 crores. in fact he managed to leave India after an alert was passed. All the tax that we pay (and it's a really high amount. Direct and indirect taxes combine to almost 50% if not more) what do we get? Nothing.

 

[Superhai]

They always to say it's to defeat criminals or terrorists etc, and it nearly always isn't the real reason.

How its worked out in India is interesting in a few ways. The original project started out to identify their own people living near the borders. Which certainly is an anti-terrorism effect. However when approached by the law enforcement, the UIDAI went all the way to the Supreme Court in India to have access to the biometric data barred for them, and the court agreed. The basis was that the chance for false positives in that case brought forward from the police were around 0,5 permille. While that number sounds low one has to remember that over 1 billion people have been registered and 0,5‰ is still half a million people.

For a government mandated payment system I am not sure if there is really any benefit for people using Apple devices. For those who have never owned a bank account or been to a bank, owning an Apple device for the purpose of accessing an Aadhaar payment system seem a bit moot. However if introducing Apple Pay, surely Apple could if they want add a secondary authentication mechanism, and the banks should also be able to authenticate the user outside the Apple eco-system with Aadhaar before approving an Apple Pay-connected card.

 

[macintoshmac]

Battle between a privacy and personal liberty focused corporation and a totalitarian scheme right out of 1984? I think Apple can afford to back out of this market.

Of course it can, and I think it should. It doesn't have enough numbers in the market and that is due to Apple using its personal liberty to charge an extra $150 (on an average) for its iPhone range here. iPhone SE 16GB price is $582 (Rs. 39,000). Same phone is $399 in the USA, right? iPhone SE 64GB is $731 (Rs. 49,000). The 6s 64GB is $1074 (Rs. 72,000). All prices are MRP.

For the computers, average is much higher.

The base MacBook m3 is $1596 (Rs. 106,900). The m5 version is $1940 (Rs. 129,900). Coming to MacBook Pro, the top end 15" Retina MBP is $2985 (Rs. 199,900). Let's talk Mac Pro. The quad core is $3729 (Rs. 249,900) and the hex core is $4923 (Rs. 329,900).

An Apple Pencil is $128.

The only thing fairly priced is a Lightning to USB cable at around $20-21.

I do think Apple can afford to back out of this market due to such atrocious treatment, but I don't think Apple will agree with you or me, because on any piece they sell here, their revenue per piece is far more than what they get in the US or most other countries with high Apple penetration.

 

[SeattleMoose]

He isnt being snarky. I dont think he understands the bigger picture.

True. He lacks wisdom and needs to read history books to understand the danger of governments that try to be more than a public service for the greater good of the electorate. They ALL end up as self-serving entities who become dangerous to the electorate they supposedly represent. e.g. United States Government

 

[AdonisSMU]

I wonder if they can let people install the governments software via an app.

 

[Googlyhead]

Regardless of the fact that this is another government making demands of companies; actually implementing something shouldn't be a problem, should it?
Unless the point is to have a device that can identify anyone (not just the owner) through the fingerprint sensor.
I would presume that simply providing some ID that can be placed in the passbook, and requires authentication through the touchID sensor would suffice.

Otherwise; they're just going to have to put up with emailed selfies for iris recognition.

 

[nt5672]

I don't like it if any government is getting involved in tech companies - especially in the context of security.

Hopefully, people will be smart enough to see that the dangers of this far outweighs any theoretical benefit. Add the fact that politicians are notorious liars and you have a recipe for absolute loss of freedom.

 

[macs4nw]

1984 people; even (or should I say especially) in the largest democracies in the world, governments are itching to completely control their populations. Personal freedom will soon merely be a quaint notion from the past.

 

[fourthtunz]

This is typical governmental mentality of caging their own citizens in ANY way they can. These UID people haven't even told one single reason why they are even in talks about this. Just because it is a biometric enabled cellphone, and these guys happen to be collecting biometric data, they somehow think the two can play ball?

This is just another way of this government to grab the necks of its citizens anyhow. Being Indian, I am enraged and appalled. Gotta plunge the nation back into darkness, then we will all be secure and the government happy. I am really surprised at the wise-ass who even thought of something like this. Their brainpower works only in such domains as to how to hooch the citizens more and more. Nothing is being done about anything that really matters, and the some relief and respite that is, the government tries to stick its nose in that as well.

You are right! And all of us citizens of the world need to band together and Say NO!
All of our governments have done a power grab since 9/11 in the name of security.
IF people think the US government no longer stages attacks on its own citizens they need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Lots of $$ to be made from these "wars" and "security".

 

[FriednTested]

How its worked out in India is interesting in a few ways. The original project started out to identify their own people living near the borders. Which certainly is an anti-terrorism effect. However when approached by the law enforcement, the UIDAI went all the way to the Supreme Court in India to have access to the biometric data barred for them, and the court agreed. The basis was that the chance for false positives in that case brought forward from the police were around 0,5 permille. While that number sounds low one has to remember that over 1 billion people have been registered and 0,5‰ is still half a million people.

For a government mandated payment system I am not sure if there is really any benefit for people using Apple devices. For those who have never owned a bank account or been to a bank, owning an Apple device for the purpose of accessing an Aadhaar payment system seem a bit moot. However if introducing Apple Pay, surely Apple could if they want add a secondary authentication mechanism, and the banks should also be able to authenticate the user outside the Apple eco-system with Aadhaar before approving an Apple Pay-connected card.

I don't even know how this idiotic government thinks it's relevant. Less than 1% of the population have iPhones.

 

[macs4nw]

No iPhones for India then. They can keep this initiative and their caste system.

'fraid that train has left the station. There's no going back for governments that have had a taste of controlling their population as India is attempting with this massive Aadhaar initiative. Others will gladly sell more of their smartphones to India if Apple decides not to. Even if all the big names stick together (imagine that!) and refuse to deal with India's requirements, the country will develop their own smartphones rather than give in to what they no doubt perceive as external meddling in 'domestic' affairs.

What's even more troubling is that other countries will see India's eventual victory and be emboldened to pursue similar avenues with the object of controlling their populations. Personal freedom has a bleak future folks.

 

[thermodynamic]

Apple is consistent, it fought China's demands to hand over source code - meanwhile back at Microsoft, it's doled out as much free code to China, India, Russia, to the point any ol' Linux distro would probably be more secure. Or even FreeBSD, which is what OS X and iOS are based on...
[doublepost=1473889555][/doublepost]

Caste system in India, racism across the world. Same thing, different clothes. So, caste system is a moot point.

Not entirely, but not disagreed either.

On another note, I for one am totally up for all international businesses giving India a middle-finger due to this. And I am against this only because this "initiative" by the government has no real benefit for the end user, but has every advantage for the government to keep track of citizens and mind you, this is only for taxation purposes, it is not that they will bother if this taxed citizen is able to make two ends meet or is victim to police harassment or anything. All they care about is tax revenue. This is something all political parties never have any argument about.

Possibly. Possibly not.

I have shame, and embarrassment, being Indian myself, but such actions by governments which have no benefit for citizens are just poor publicity and breed resentment alone.

Only government? Surely there's no corporate involvement? Or are the big companies the special snowflakes all of a sudden because they can no longer handle the mess they accidentally created when they lobbied to make back when it suited them?

And what the heck, Apple's consumers are just as culpable for continuing to buy? How extensive can the blame train go for? Maybe stock owners, who might know more about the situation than Joe and Jane Jones trying to keep up with the neighbors since all neighborhoods have these mandatory meetings to discuss who owns what so everyone else can try to outdo... you know, "Keeping up with the Joneses" and other ******** memes?
[doublepost=1473889715][/doublepost]

I am Indian. And currently live in Bombay. All our governments are jokes. Recently the boss of Kingfisher escaped by defaulting Rs. 7000 crores. in fact he managed to leave India after an alert was passed. All the tax that we pay (and it's a really high amount. Direct and indirect taxes combine to almost 50% if not more) what do we get? Nothing.

Hmmm, how come non-Indians have to point out when "Bombay" was renamed? Like around 1995? To "Mumbai"? Because Indians were so embarrassed by remnants of "British Colonial Rule" (or "CBR" because that sounds like all hip and trendy and stuff), or at least the rules the Indians in power disagreed with since the whole issue is one big ripe cherrypickin' fest over there, and the British of even the 1950s probably were more embarrassed over the caste system that still quite exists... I sincerely do apologize in advance if you really are Indian, but it seems a little odd given the time factor involved that you refer to the name that was given the boot (more than two decades) . And it's very possible, given your anti-government tone in your response, that you use the former name deliberately...

 

[cmwade77]

Sajal, this is not about fondness for paying taxes or not. There is no need to be snarky.

The point I was making about this was that when we use our income after tax, for buying a simple loaf of bread, or for buying an iPhone, we pay a sales tax. When we recharge our prepaid phones, or when we pay our postpaid bills, we pay service tax. What income has been generated here for which we are required to be taxed? (based on your first response)

That actually depends a lot on where you live, for example, in California, the following items do not get taxed:
Food and Drink (Except Alcohol, Carbonated Beverages, Fountain Drinks and anything from a restaurant or fast food)
Services (Except postpaid phone services, electricity and the like. If it is prepaid, it does not get taxed here)
[doublepost=1473890999][/doublepost]

'fraid that train has left the station. There's no going back for governments that have had a taste of controlling their population as India is attempting with this massive Aadhaar initiative. Others will gladly sell more of their smartphones to India if Apple decides not to. Even if all the big names stick together (imagine that!) and refuse to deal with India's requirements, the country will develop their own smartphones rather than give in to what they no doubt perceive as external meddling in 'domestic' affairs.

What's even more troubling is that other countries will see India's eventual victory and be emboldened to pursue similar avenues with the object of controlling their populations. Personal freedom has a bleak future folks.

And people will find ways around all of this stuff, bottom line is just because they might develop their own shouldn't stop the big names from saying no. In fact I think Google should add it to their TOS that Android cannot be used in such a manner. So should Microsoft and any other developers that make OSes for phones that any manufacturer can use.

 

[ErikGrim]

Aadhaar is awfully close to adhere (abide by, stick to, hold to, comply with, stand by, be faithful to, act in accordance with, pay attention to, pay regard to, go along with, cooperate with, conform to, submit to...)

 

[Sajal]

Truth is: I as an Indian, don't want to portray India negatively, which the actual News depicts. I agree there are lots of corrupt people in power.. let's not go into that debate.

As per the news, UIDAI wants to integrate with the current mobile phones. Now the worrying thing will be if they want to access user's data or device security. On the other hand if UIDAI wants to let Indians do authenticated transactions securely on their mobile devices, it might turn out to be good.

Also currently only 2-3% of mobile market is of iPhone, a few percent increase in India alone will mean Apple will turn their next quarter profitable.

I hope this works out well.

 

[Superhai]

I don't even know how this idiotic government thinks it's relevant. Less than 1% of the population have iPhones.

I am not sure if the government thought it was relevant or not, lots of other companies was invited as well.

Hmmm, how come non-Indians have to point out when "Bombay" was renamed?

Lots of Indians – especially non-maharashtris, still call Mumbai for Bombay, not because of the colonial past, but because the rename was initiated by hindu/ultra nationalists(Shiv Sena), and they despise them as much, or even more as their British Raj heritage. As such they remain ignorant about the name change.

 

[Chatter]

Hmmm, how come non-Indians have to point out when "Bombay" was renamed? Like around 1995? To "Mumbai"? .... And it's very possible, given your anti-government tone in your response, that you use the former name deliberately...

I dont think you actually understand the history (controversy) behind the name change, who supported, who didnt and the "swarashtri" fanatic behind things. I dont blame you but when you are uncertain, its better to ask or research background info versus assuming.

 

[FriednTested]

Apple is consistent, it fought China's demands to hand over source code - meanwhile back at Microsoft, it's doled out as much free code to China, India, Russia, to the point any ol' Linux distro would probably be more secure. Or even FreeBSD, which is what OS X and iOS are based on...
[doublepost=1473889555][/doublepost]

Not entirely, but not disagreed either.



Possibly. Possibly not.



Only government? Surely there's no corporate involvement? Or are the big companies the special snowflakes all of a sudden because they can no longer handle the mess they accidentally created when they lobbied to make back when it suited them?

And what the heck, Apple's consumers are just as culpable for continuing to buy? How extensive can the blame train go for? Maybe stock owners, who might know more about the situation than Joe and Jane Jones trying to keep up with the neighbors since all neighborhoods have these mandatory meetings to discuss who owns what so everyone else can try to outdo... you know, "Keeping up with the Joneses" and other ******** memes?
[doublepost=1473889715][/doublepost]

Hmmm, how come non-Indians have to point out when "Bombay" was renamed? Like around 1995? To "Mumbai"? Because Indians were so embarrassed by remnants of "British Colonial Rule" (or "CBR" because that sounds like all hip and trendy and stuff), or at least the rules the Indians in power disagreed with since the whole issue is one big ripe cherrypickin' fest over there, and the British of even the 1950s probably were more embarrassed over the caste system that still quite exists... I sincerely do apologize in advance if you really are Indian, but it seems a little odd given the time factor involved that you refer to the name that was given the boot (more than two decades) . And it's very possible, given your anti-government tone in your response, that you use the former name deliberately...

The city was renamed by a local political party which came to power just once. They are the Shiv Sena. All they did was change names. All they continue to do is harass people and extort money in the name of Gods. They harass and beat up people from other states who have migrated to the city because the people who have come here looking for work are hardworking and hence take away jobs from the lazy localities. I have no respect for them. And I hate the name Mumbai. Majority of the old residents still refer to the city as Bombay. Hope this explains it.

 

[macintoshmac]

The city was renamed by a local political party which came to power just once. They are the Shiv Sena. All they did was change names. All they continue to do is harass people and extort money in the name of Gods. They harass and beat up people from other states who have migrated to the city because the people who have come here looking for work are hardworking and hence take away jobs from the lazy localities. I have no respect for them. And I hate the name Mumbai. Majority of the old residents still refer to the city as Bombay. Hope this explains it.

Shhh.. If Bal Thakre or his descendants or his "Sena" so much as get a whiff of this, you and I will both be doomed. /s

 

[FriednTested]

Shhh.. If Bal Thakre or his descendants or his "Sena" so much as get a whiff of this, you and I will both be doomed. /s

Like Apple is doomed every 3 months?

On a serious note. Thackeray is dead. And with him 50% of the influence. Raj is trying his best to be the violent young form of bal Thackeray. But, he is nowhere close to what that man was. Although I hated Bal Thackeray from the bottom of my heart. You have to admit that he was a true dictator and had balls of steel. Which neither Uddhav or Raj can ever be.

 

[Chatter]

Like Apple is doomed every 3 months?

On a serious note. Thackeray is dead. And with him 50% of the influence. Raj is trying his best to be the violent young form of bal Thackeray. But, he is nowhere close to what that man was. Although I hated Bal Thackeray from the bottom of my heart. You have to admit that he was a true dictator and had balls of steel. Which neither Uddhav or Raj can ever be.

BT was a thug. Period. You are correct in everything you say. But he was a thug who bullied poor people.

 

[springsup]

[doublepost=1473865375][/doublepost]For example, there is an education cess in India, and now there is a (translated) Clean India cess as well. Now, since this was a tax to be collected, nobody refuted it in the parliament and the bill was passed. Nobody questioned that since when did tax money get compartmented and how did the buckets of education and cleanliness came up empty? Tax is tax, and that money is to be used for ALL purposes. You cannot have special taxes over and above the one you pay. Just a way to sugarcoat the effective rate, right? Same way, there are tolls. We pay toll tax for using the road that was effectively created from our own tax money. Ridiculous.

Actually, if they did that with everything, and split it up through the entire chain from people/business who contribute until the government departments that need it, that would be great and probably reduce a lot of corruption.

 

[macintoshmac]

Like Apple is doomed every 3 months?

On a serious note. Thackeray is dead. And with him 50% of the influence. Raj is trying his best to be the violent young form of bal Thackeray. But, he is nowhere close to what that man was. Although I hated Bal Thackeray from the bottom of my heart. You have to admit that he was a true dictator and had balls of steel. Which neither Uddhav or Raj can ever be.

Absolutely. No two ways about it.