Apple False Advertising Thunderbolt 3 Speeds?

[manny88]

Hey,

I'm pretty sure I read about this awhile ago, but it became soon forgotton. But having just updated the firmware on my USB-C multiport adapater and checking my system report to see if it was done, I thought why not check out the thunderbolt port speeds as well.

And yes, on my non touchbar macbook pro, I am getting 20Gb's per port instead of 40Gb's a port.

Can people check their macbooks, especially now since the touchbar models are out.

 

[coopercoop]

I know that the touchbar version has 2 faster ports and 2 slower ports. Not sure if the nontouchbar has the fast ports or the slow ports though.

 

[NAYo2002]

This may be obvious, but USB C is different from TB3. Do you have a TB3 device?

 

[eldervovichka]

Thunderbolt 3 is 40 gps and USB 3.1 is 10 gps. If you are getting 20 gps, do you have a Thunderbold 2 hardware attached? It depends on what's on the other end. Right now there's very little that is Thunderbolt 3 compatible at 40 gps I'm sure our new MacBook Pro's can handle those speeds once we get hardware and cabling to match.

 

[manny88]

Port:

Status: No device connected

Link Status: 0x101

Speed: Up to 20 Gb/s x1

Current Link Width: 0x1

Receptacle: 1

Link Controller Firmware Version: 0.15.0

Port:

Status: No device connected

Link Status: 0x101

Speed: Up to 20 Gb/s x1

Current Link Width: 0x1

Receptacle: 18

Link Controller Firmware Version: 0.15.0

 

[theitsage]

This is a concern a lot of non-touchbar MBP were bringing up last week. If you have a Late 2016 MBP, please do a screen cap of the Thunderbolt Information and post here.

 

[voxtro]

TB3 is bidirectional. You get 20Gbps in and out for a total of 40. However, there are very few products besides the ones you see on Apple's website (some cables and mostly basic accessories) that support TB3 <-> TB3. The reason a lot of TB3 items don't work with the new MacBook Pro's is Apple's validation / certification process which is tight right now coupled with their close integration of Thunderbolt 3 controller.

So you are not going to really see (we haven't yet, AFAIK) a TB3 native-device that communicates at the full 40 bi-directionally.

And yes, the 13" without Touch Bar has two full throughput (40 each). A single TB3 controller would have '80Gbps' for two ports at 40 each *if both devices are TB3 compatible w/ macOS* and thereby back and forth communication is possible to achieve the 40.

The 13" with Touch Bar has 4 ports and 2 of them are rated at the full TB3 potential, again likely due to the controller.

The new 15" have '80Gbps' on each set of ports (so 2x80) allowing for (the potential) of all four ports to have the 40 bi-directional TB3 speed. And for that to happen the device needs to work with macOS and the TB3 controller. Like the MFI program, but Apple is strict with their TB accessories and it's very slow right now. Even the TB3 dock from OWC won't ship until Feb 2017 per their estimates. Other manufacturers with TB3 devices are trying to get theirs certified and working with Apple as well.

I'm saying '80' in quotes as it is a simplified explanation, but essentially correct. The full TB3 specification is available online as well.

 

[theitsage]

TB3 is bidirectional. You get 20Gbps in and out for a total of 40. However, there are very few products besides the ones you see on Apple's website (some cables and mostly basic accessories) that support TB3 <-> TB3. The reason a lot of TB3 items don't work with the new MacBook Pro's is Apple's validation / certification process which is tight right now coupled with their close integration of Thunderbolt 3 controller.

So you are not going to really see (we haven't yet, AFAIK) a TB3 native-device that communicates at the full 40 bi-directionally.

And yes, the 13" without Touch Bar has two full throughput (40 each). A single TB3 controller would have '80Gbps' for two ports at 40 each *if both devices are TB3 compatible w/ macOS* and thereby back and forth communication is possible to achieve the 40.

The 13" with Touch Bar has 4 ports and 2 of them are rated at the full TB3 potential, again likely due to the controller.

The new 15" have '80Gbps' on each set of ports (so 2x80) allowing for (the potential) of all four ports to have the 40 bi-directional TB3 speed. And for that to happen the device needs to work with macOS and the TB3 controller. Like the MFI program, but Apple is strict with their TB accessories and it's very slow right now. Even the TB3 dock from OWC won't ship until Feb 2017 per their estimates. Other manufacturers with TB3 devices are trying to get theirs certified and working with Apple as well.

I'm saying '80' in quotes as it is a simplified explanation, but essentially correct. The full TB3 specification is available online as well.

In short, Thunderbolt is still a cluster****.

 

[viljamip]

I bet that when you attach a working TB3 device, that Current Link Width = 1 will go to 2 and your speed will double. If you have nothing connected it doesn't bother enabling the other 20Gb/s link on the port.

The TB3 spec suggests that should happen.

 

[voxtro]

I bet that when you attach a working TB3 device, that Current Link Width = 1 will go to 2 and your speed will double. If you have nothing connected it doesn't bother enabling the other 20Gb/s link on the port.

It's overcomplicated because Apple can control as tightly as they want. The specification is not that complex.

It is physically different. There are four 20Gbps channels (two in each direction) at the highest level giving you 40 full duplex. For a TB3 <--> TB3 device on macOS, it needs to work with the OS + controller hardware that Apple is very "strict" with. If your device is essentially licensed and works on macOS and is TB3 physically (as many things are right now that don't work with macOS yet - they all say yet as they are working to hope to get their stuff certified) - then yes both devices will be able to communicate and you will get the 40Gbps.

This is likely how Apple will control their UltraFine LG monitors as they are going to be TB3-native (to the Mac). Again, there may be a way around it, but I would be surprised - at least at first.

40Gbps is a lot of bandwidth (especially considering up to four ports on the 15" at 40Gbps) - you likely don't need that much, even for - say - the OWC TB3 Dock that is coming out next year. However, in order to allow expansion as that Dock will with TB3 output ports, you will need to have the full TB3 working on macOS.

20Gbps is what TB2 is and that's what the adapters are doing right now, especially any working aftermarket accessories. They're just recognized as TB2 with the adapter.

 

[Mr Dobey]

I started another thread on the subject. But here it is:

Both Sonnet Tech and Akitio told me that the true speed of Thunderbolt 3 is 21.6Gbps. Though neither gave me a breakdown of why. And that 11Gbps is the tops for Thunderbolt 2. I do not have a fast enough setup to test either claims but would enjoy feedback from anyone who does.

 

[DRDR]

 

[Howard2k]

I started another thread on the subject. But here it is:

Both Sonnet Tech and Akitio told me that the true speed of Thunderbolt 3 is 21.6Gbps. Though neither gave me a breakdown of why. And that 11Gbps is the tops for Thunderbolt 2. I do not have a fast enough setup to test either claims but would enjoy feedback from anyone who does.

It sounds like both you and they are possibly confusing throughput with bandwidth. But without details it's a totally useless comment. (No offence).

 

[Mascots]

Like the MFI program, but Apple is strict with their TB accessories and it's very slow right now. Even the TB3 dock from OWC won't ship until Feb 2017 per their estimates. Other manufacturers with TB3 devices are trying to get theirs certified and working with Apple as well.

iirc, Apple is basically requiring manufacturers to use Intel's 2nd generation chipset spec for TB interfaces, but at the launch of the tMBP the 2nd generation certifications were still being pieced together for many device classes by Intel. A bunch of manufacturers had TB3 docks available, but they weren't meeting that minimum generation so macOS would disable them.

It seems different than Apple's MFi program, which manufacturers do have to apply, meet guidelines, and be accepted versus Apple setting a high minimum compatibility level for accessories that realistically couldn't be met by manufacturers in time. It's crappy because now first generation and second generation TB3 devices nonetheless.

 

[DRDR]

I am using a Thunderbolt 3 to Dual Displayport Adapter, driving two 4K displays. According to the Displayport standard this means the following data rate from one of my Thunderbolt 3 ports to the displays:

2 x 12,96 GBit/s = 25,92 GBit/s

This is the exact same data rate used when connecting a 5K display.

----

Regarding certification: Everything which "was certified by Intel", which means everything which is allowed by Intel to use the Thunderbolt 3 logo should be useable. Everything else is madness (in my opinion)!

Interesting article discussing the mess:

https://www.extremetech.com/computi...ot-fully-compatible-thunderbolt-3-peripherals

 

[carestudio]

I started another thread on the subject. But here it is:

Both Sonnet Tech and Akitio told me that the true speed of Thunderbolt 3 is 21.6Gbps. Though neither gave me a breakdown of why. And that 11Gbps is the tops for Thunderbolt 2. I do not have a fast enough setup to test either claims but would enjoy feedback from anyone who does.

Data is 21, plus video, I think total is 40Gbps.

 

[Eason85]

this sounds like what happened with the XPS 15.

Read my article on it here: http://www.notebookcheck.net/update...-may-be-hardwired-at-TB2-speeds.189743.0.html

 

[steve62388]

this sounds like what happened with the XPS 15.

Read my article on it here: http://www.notebookcheck.net/update...-may-be-hardwired-at-TB2-speeds.189743.0.html

Wouldn't that contradict your article and source information though? Because you say 'single-port TB3 SKUs can range from two to four lanes' and if I'm not mistaken all TB3 MacBooks have at least two ports.

 

[Eason85]

Wouldn't that contradict your article and source information though? Because you say 'single-port TB3 SKUs can range from two to four lanes' and if I'm not mistaken all TB3 MacBooks have at least two ports.

Ah right, I was thinking the non-TB had one port for some reason. I'm not sure what's going on. TB3 should be 32Gbps data with 8Gbps reserved for displayport, btw.

 

[Mr Dobey]

Ah right, I was thinking the non-TB had one port for some reason. I'm not sure what's going on. TB3 should be 32Gbps data with 8Gbps reserved for displayport, btw.

The 32Gbps bandwidth from PCIe 3.0 x4 limit of 31.52Gbps makes sense. But if 22.18Gbps is needed for a 5K60Hz signal does that 8Gbps 'reserved' for DisplayPort leach off of the total 40Gbps throughput?

 

[Eason85]

The 32Gbps bandwidth from PCIe 3.0 x4 limit of 31.52Gbps makes sense. But if 22.18Gbps is needed for a 5K60Hz signal does that 8Gbps 'reserved' for DisplayPort leach off of the total 40Gbps throughput?

I believe so