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I say this again. Why should Apple be able to sell books in their app without giving up a 30% cut, while other companies like Amazon cannot?

It's unfair, and that's one of the key issues here. It's equivalent to Microsoft demanding a 30% cut of all music purchases made on a PC.

Apple's iOS has dominance in the market, and Apple is using this dominance to engage in monopolistic behavior, doing things like ACTIVELY blocking other companies from even *linking* to their stores in their apps.

This decision is awesome and a complete win for consumers.

Um no dude.. That's not the same at all. There are PLENTY of places to buy music on your PC. If Microsoft coded into the OS that ANY purchase of music you made would earn them 30%, then yes, that would be bad.

Apple does not force you to buy an iPad or iPhone. Apple is not twisting anyone's arm to use their products, including the app store and everything in it. They should be able to charge whatever the hell they want. If people don't like it, they have options. Seems really simple to me. Don't want to pay 30%? Don't use OUR tools to make an app to go in OUR store to sell to OUR customers.
 
Imagine what the world would look like if the DoJ had been this aggressive after they successfully convicted Microsoft of being a predatory monopoly and recommended breaking up the company.

Weird how that happened, and the actual result was... nothing?

Whereas Apple gets convicted of peripherally aiding in price collusion with booksellers and they get ten years of monitoring and the entire rules of the app store rewritten.
 
If apple has to allow amazon and b&n into their apps will apple have a button on b&n and amazon apps as well? If not then this judgment is completely lopsided. Also if apple is to be watched why isn't amazon also watched as well since they still have controlling of book market place.

I believe once amazon kills apple ebooks and b&n we'll see amazon start selling ebooks and physical books at higher prices.
 
Whereas Apple gets convicted of peripherally aiding in price collusion with booksellers and they get ten years of monitoring and the entire rules of the app store rewritten.

They haven't gotten anything. "Following the Department of Justice's release of a proposed remedy"

BIG difference.
 
Pile it high, sell it cheap. It's not a crime.
Actually, when it crosses a certain line and becomes a predatory monopoly--when selling it cheap become "selling it at a loss to drive your competitors out of business"--it is.

See, capitalism only works with checks and balances. Otherwise you have one wealthy player driving all competitors out of business with profits earned elsewhere, and then jacking up the price and using their position to keep competition out of the market. You could argue it then ceases to be pure capitalism, but in any case without protections against collusion and monopolistic behavior, capitalism can and does fail.

The issue I have with this whole case is that Amazon is the company in the clearly predatory monopoly position, yet there's no action whatsoever by the DoJ against them. When you start selling everything hot on your store at a loss and use your inflated stock price and profits from other areas (a stock price which is inflated specifically because investors think that Amazon will eventually drive all competition out of business and start actually making money), that's called "a predatory monopoly." It's the very definition thereof.

Why is the DoJ not going after them now?
 
I completely understand this. What part of that is not fair? Again, if you and your family opened a widget selling business, would you want the widget manufacturer to sell widgets for a lower price than what they sold it to your family's business?

Jesus, some people just think the government is infallible!!!

Yes, it's crazy. All you have to do is look at any government run business or agency to see how dismal it is. Look at the US postal service. Running at a loss of billions every year. Meanwhile UPS and Fed Ex are posting record profits. I watch the UPS guy running from his delivery truck to my door to deliver a package. I watch the US postal guy walking as slowly as possible to get to my door. Do you like the way your local Dept. of motor vehicles is managed and run? You do? Well then you can hardly wait for the government to start managing your health care right? Is everybody brain dead or what?
 
This recommended penalty by the DOJ is particularly broad and far reaching. It smacks of wanting to "make a statement" while extending to areas not under question in the original trial. It unfairly punishes companies who make products, i.e. Apple, in favor of those like Amazon (Google being in the same category) that all but give away products that they distribute/market--making their cash through other means such as Cloud services, advertising, etc. When the guiding principles of "fair business practices" are ubiquitous availability of services (even on proprietary hardware from another company) and low cost to "the consumer," then any company who lives off of the loss leader will be a winner. This approach poisons markets, reduces profit margins for companies producing the products sold, and shifts entrepreneurship towards establishment of the next behemoth for a new market. If the DOJ opposes the MFN clause, then seek to ban them with federal law and fine Apple if necessary. The rest of the proposed judgement is an affront to any conception of a free market.
 
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The issue I have with this whole case is that Amazon is the company in the clearly predatory monopoly position, yet there's no action whatsoever by the DoJ against them. When you start selling everything hot on your store at a loss and use your inflated stock price and profits from other areas (a stock price which is inflated specifically because investors think that Amazon will eventually drive all competition out of business and start actually making money), that's called "a predatory monopoly." It's the very definition thereof.

Why is the DoJ not going after them now?

The problem is that the DOJ is choosing to look at the eBook market as a commodity market. They are looking at eBook sales as a whole and ignoring the significance of best sellers to market competition.
 
People keep saying eBooks prices went up because of Apple...

But for the last 5 years, Gas prices went up, Food prices went up, Electricity bills went up, and everything else went up... is that also because of Apple?

Publishers already decided they weren't happy with Amazon and wanted to raise their prices. And the only thing Apple did request is to get the same prices than anyone else to be sure an eBook won't be sell lower than the Apple price.

They didn't fix the price, they asked to get the same prices by using the Agency model.

I just don't get it, this case just looks completely absurd and will now give Amazon the full monopoly on eBooks. So much for Capitalism and Freedom of choices...
 
People keep saying eBooks prices went up because of Apple...

But for the last 5 years, Gas prices went up, Food prices went up, Electricity bills went up, and everything else went up... is that also because of Apple?

Publishers already decided they weren't happy with Amazon and wanted to raise their prices. And the only thing Apple did request is to get the same prices than anyone else to be sure an eBook won't be sell lower than the Apple price.

They didn't fix the price, they asked to get the same prices by using the Agency model.

I just don't get it, this case just looks completely absurd and will now give Amazon the full monopoly on eBooks. So much for Capitalism and Freedom of choices...

you can spin it all you want, but at the end of the day, Apple colluded with the 5 major publishers.
 
Apple does not force you to buy an iPad or iPhone. Apple is not twisting anyone's arm to use their products, including the app store and everything in it. They should be able to charge whatever the hell they want. If people don't like it, they have options. Seems really simple to me. Don't want to pay 30%? Don't use OUR tools to make an app to go in OUR store to sell to OUR customers.[/QUOTE]

Wow! So after I buy an iPad it is still THEIR tool?
 
Apple does not force you to buy an iPad or iPhone. Apple is not twisting anyone's arm to use their products, including the app store and everything in it. They should be able to charge whatever the hell they want. If people don't like it, they have options. Seems really simple to me. Don't want to pay 30%? Don't use OUR tools to make an app to go in OUR store to sell to OUR customers.

Wow! So after I buy an iPad it is still THEIR tool?[/QUOTE]

Re-read what he wrote.
 
The judge is the culprit... She entered this case with prejudice. It is a clear and known fact.
The case was not tried by jury. She was the judge jury and executioner .. Hardly comes close to justice!

Now the same prejudice judge has to decide punishment?... Lol
This whole case has to be tossed out and retried in front of jury and an unbiased judge presiding.
1. There is no execution. Nobody is getting killed.
2. Its a civil case so no jury is necessary.
3. The judge made a judgement that Apple was wrong. Thats her job, to judge.
You need to start making sense.
 
The rebuttal is great, this is why Apple even bothered to fight. Even if they lose on appeal the laws are quite clear that the remedy must be tailored to cure the original issue and can not be punitive. The consent decrees with the publishers have already cured the original issue and therefor the possible injunctive relief must be minimal to pass any type of scrutiny. Apple took the chance with a trial because they knew the permissible harm under all law was minimal.

DoJ's putting on a great show, but it's a waste of time and taxpayer money.
 
From my undrestanding, the gross issue here was that part of the deal with Apple, was that no matter what, the publisher WASNT allowed to make lower deals with other retailers.

I think you maybe incorrect...
What i found surprising from the court reporting was the deal with the publishers was that they set the price but Apple retained the right under the contact to price match any other store and the revenue split would stay 70/30, regardless of the model the store they where matching was using. Publishers could go in at any time and change the price, up or down, if they wanted as long as that price wasn't higher in Apple's store.

Yes it created a massive dis-incentive for publishers to let other stores have a wholesale contract. Which I can see how the court would deem that un-competive. Still doesn't mean Apple forced the price rise or even the contract change with other stores.

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Wow! So after I buy an iPad it is still THEIR tool?

Re-read what he wrote.[/QUOTE]

No but the api, the OS, the store and all the hardware that run it are still Apples's tools. Although they couldn't just stop the iBooks store as it was clearly part of the "supporting service" you purchased with the device.
 
Um no dude.. That's not the same at all. There are PLENTY of places to buy music on your PC. If Microsoft coded into the OS that ANY purchase of music you made would earn them 30%, then yes, that would be bad.

Apple does not force you to buy an iPad or iPhone. Apple is not twisting anyone's arm to use their products, including the app store and everything in it. They should be able to charge whatever the hell they want. If people don't like it, they have options. Seems really simple to me. Don't want to pay 30%? Don't use OUR tools to make an app to go in OUR store to sell to OUR customers.
You do know that Microsoft also isn't twisting anyones arms to use their product? By your logic, Microsoft should be able to do anything they want. After all, its their OS.
 
You do know that Microsoft also isn't twisting anyones arms to use their product? By your logic, Microsoft should be able to do anything they want. After all, its their OS.

No argument here. Why shouldn't they?
 
Two small corrections to your posts:

Apple, and other small book stores, heck even the big brick and mortar stores can't compete with or don't want to compete with someone who buys 5 billion of something and then sells them at a loss to steal customers.

Unfortunately, the government's interpretation was that it's okay to loss-lead certain items (the entire NYT bestseller's list, for instance) as long as not all books are loss-led. That's why they decided not to prosecute Amazon.

Nobody forced the publishers to do anything. They saw an opportunity to make more money and took it. Thats why they settled.

Well actually, they saw an opportunity to make less money (they made less money initially after the agency model), and took it (to save their business from being commoditized). They did this knowingly, which is why they settled immediately when they were sued by the DoJ.

Apple didn't settle because the law (arguing the Monsanto standard) used to force the publishers to settle doesn't cover them as distributors. The US Government prosecuted anyway either because Apple colluded with them (a very difficult bar to prove) or because the current administration's cozy relationship with Amazon (witness Obama speaking at an Amazon warehouse in TN last week). In either case, the judge was very amenable to their government's interpretation.

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eBooks aren't "bought" in bulk. This is about eBooks. Not books. Do you understand the case? I ask because this is now the second time you're posting something that doesn't make sense.

Of course, the fact that eBooks are not bought or sold in bulk shows how a wholesale pricing model, while acceptable for physical books, is irrational for eBooks. Thus the rationality of an agency model Apple proposed. If Apple's actions appear to be rational for its own self-interest then the Monsanto standard says that they're innocent of wrongdoing in that regard. Then it comes to arguing whether the MFN clause was designed to protect Apple, or collude with the publisher. On that issue, the government's case is even weaker.

The clauses most definitely made prices go up. Again - I think you're misinformed.

Their are opposing lines of evidence on whether the short term prices of the books actually went up. Personally, I agree with you and the economists who say it did go up.

And the publishers actually made less (they stated so) most of the time with the new deal in place. They did it (most likely) for other reasons which I posted in another thread - which deals with saving the printed book market.

Really? Not a single line of evidence in the case said that they did it to save the printed book market. That's pure speculation. The evidence, including the admission of all the publishers called to the witness stands as well as Apple's competitors (Google and Barnes & Noble) was that they did it to prevent what they perceived was an Amazon monopoly and commoditization of the eBook market around $9.99 pricing for new bestselling books.

If Amazon ended up with a monopoly, the publishers felt they could be strongarmed to reduced the wholesale price of eBooks. This, by the way, is known as classic vertical monopoly. And while monopolies are legal in US law, vertical price-fixing is illegal under the Sherman Anti-trust act. Amazon never got to do this because they switched to the agency model (they didn't have to, but they were effectively forced to if they wanted to continue carrying bestsellers without having the titles windowed away from release on the Kindle), so we'll never know if the DoJ would have successfully prosecuted that. I think eventually so, but Microsoft fended off lawsuits for a decade and IBM successfully fended off a similar lawsuit for 40 years before it was dropped as no longer relevant. My thinking is as a business Amazon can see the odds were stacked in their favor of getting away with it.

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If Amazon could sell books at 9.99$, others could. They had an advantage in the market because they were first movers in it. Apple could have competed in that model, they just decided the margins were good enough and it was likely very "convenient" to find publishers who also wanted the prices to go up.

Well, they were paying wholesale for every book, so I don't know where in your math, losing $2-4 on every e-book sold, gets made up in volume. They were obviously trying to establish a monopoly, which is legal under US law (it's abuse of monopoly that is illegal). The DoJ interpreted this that as long as they didn't "dump" across the whole market (and focused on just a subset of the market: bestsellers) it's legal and didn't prosecute. If Amazon didn't donate so much to government, I'm not certain that the government wouldn't have plastered Amazon's ass to the wall. It's not really a great defensible position, and I'm sure you could subpoena some interesting records (in fact Apple lawyers showed some "interesting" e-mails from Jeff Bezos in the case with respect to just the windowing argument).

Besides, we have an example in the real world without bringing our Apple and Amazon biases into it: Barnes & Noble Nook. In their deposition by the DoJ they claimed that they were losing money as they sold more e-books and it was killing them.

Apple decided they wouldn't compete on that model (losing money). The publishers could take-it-or-leave-it on the iPad eBookstore (leave it = let Amazon develop a Kindle app which they did). In fact, initially, one publisher decided to take the Hobson's choice.

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Which then led t the demise of independent ebook sellers, who did not have their own hardware to tie their shops to.

Where was this in the case? If anything Apple's entry allowed the "independent ebook seller" to survive (whatever that means).

1) Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Apple, Google, and Kobo are in the market right now, before this it was just Amazon and Barnes and Noble and the latter was thinking about leaving the market (for the second time),
2) Independent ebook publishers get to set the price under the agency model and are thriving
3) The agency model allowed for the creation of the Kobo on terms that allow enough margins to ensure a little money goes to the independent bookstore. There is simply no way that would have been possible under the wholesale model.

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This is not to say that I don't think Apple is guilty (I don't know, my thinking is they and the publishers did something wrong, but I'm not sure it's actually illegal in Apple's case), nor do I care that the DoJ is asking for the moon in terms of punishment (it's their job to do so). I'm just correcting some errors here.
 
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Really? Not a single line of evidence in the case said that they did it to save the printed book market. That's pure speculation. The evidence, including the admission of all the publishers called to the witness stands as well as Apple's competitors (Google and Barnes & Noble) was that they did it to prevent what they perceived was an Amazon monopoly and commoditization of the eBook market around $9.99 pricing for new bestselling books.

I never said testimony stated. If you see, I put (in parenthesis) "most likely" and referred to an earlier comment I made in the thread. At no time did I pass my opinion off as fact. That's something others try to do. I do my best to avoid it and choose my words carefully.
 
Strange to see the DOJ going after Apple while allowing the cable companies to have a monopoly in many areas and the cell companies to screw consumers right and left. I think the problem is that Apple doesn't pay the bribes that DOJ expects. The cable/telco people know enough to pay the bribes to the right places.

The DOJ runs based on who pays them how much under the table.
 
I never said testimony stated. If you see, I put (in parenthesis) "most likely" and referred to an earlier comment I made in the thread. At no time did I pass my opinion off as fact. That's something others try to do. I do my best to avoid it and choose my words carefully.

Then I'm sorry for that. I didn't realize that you were just stating your opinion.
 
Apple does not force you to buy an iPad or iPhone. Apple is not twisting anyone's arm to use their products, including the app store and everything in it. They should be able to charge whatever the hell they want. If people don't like it, they have options. Seems really simple to me. Don't want to pay 30%? Don't use OUR tools to make an app to go in OUR store to sell to OUR customers.

Wow! So after I buy an iPad it is still THEIR tool?[/QUOTE]
You do realize you have to use XCode (Apple software) to build an app for any iDevice right?
 
It's cute how you believe they are separate and distinct. Eric Holder saw to it this went to a judge favorable to the administration, who declared Apple guilty before one shred of evidence was presented.
They are in fact separate and distinct.
The DOJ does not decide which judge tries the case.
Eric Holder is head of the DOJ (executive branch) while the federal court is part of the judicial branch.
The judge never "declared" Apple guilty of anything.
A statement was made during pretrial by her after reviewing the evidence.
During a preliminary hearing in late May, U.S. District Judge Denise Cote made a surprising statement: "I believe that the government will be able to show at trial direct evidence that Apple knowingly participated in and facilitated a conspiracy to raise prices of e-books, and that the circumstantial evidence in this case, including the terms of the agreements, will confirm that."
Given that the trial didn't begin until June 3, pundits said Cote -- who will make a "bench ruling" with no jury -- was trying to pressure Apple into settling before the case went to trial. Over the course of the three-week trial, however, the crew from Cupertino managed to at least sway Cote a bit.
"I thought I had prepared so well," Cote said the day the defense rested. "I learned a lot. But you have helped me understand so much more through the evidence presented... It seems to me the issues have somewhat shifted during the course of the trial. Things change."
Source
A little more detail...
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/06/19/apple-antitrust-judge-ipad/


Your ignorance of how our legal system is setup is very apparent.
And for the other complainers, Apple chose to have a judge decide the case instead of having a jury trial. Wonder why?

Yes, it's crazy. All you have to do is look at any government run business or agency to see how dismal it is. Look at the US postal service. Running at a loss of billions every year. Meanwhile UPS and Fed Ex are posting record profits. I watch the UPS guy running from his delivery truck to my door to deliver a package. I watch the US postal guy walking as slowly as possible to get to my door. Do you like the way your local Dept. of motor vehicles is managed and run? You do? Well then you can hardly wait for the government to start managing your health care right? Is everybody brain dead or what?
The USPS is a private entity... has been for decades. It is self funded.
It is not tax payer funded, but still under partial control of Congress as required by the Constitution.
They are going broke because Congress mandated they pay 75 years worth of retirement benefits into the pension fund in advance.
They would actually be making a profit if it weren't for the ridiculous pension prepayment requirement.
Their losses are politically inflicted by Congress and the Letter Carrier's Union. Another shining example of labor unions bleeding their employers into bankruptcy.
 
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Um no dude.. That's not the same at all. There are PLENTY of places to buy music on your PC. If Microsoft coded into the OS that ANY purchase of music you made would earn them 30%, then yes, that would be bad.

Apple does not force you to buy an iPad or iPhone. Apple is not twisting anyone's arm to use their products, including the app store and everything in it. They should be able to charge whatever the hell they want. If people don't like it, they have options. Seems really simple to me. Don't want to pay 30%? Don't use OUR tools to make an app to go in OUR store to sell to OUR customers.

I never understood why people love to defend billion dollar corporations, when all they want is your money.

You owe Apple nothing. Why are you so quick to defend them?

The device belongs to US, not Apple. We should be able to decide where our money goes when we use them, not Apple.

What is it with you people? Are your lips permanently glued to Apple's collective arse? I enjoy their products too, but I have no delusions about their intentions. Money is what matters.
 
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