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That’s exactly the issue, the possibilities are scary.
Until you realize that those who complain the loudest about anti-hate-speech laws were always those, who proposed genocide as a solution to the problems of society.

The Weimar Fallacy

And then later they admitted, censorship probably helped them gain legitimacy, because some idiots were more concerned about Hitler's right to free speech than what he had to say.
 
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That remains to be seen, and, if developers abandon the Apple app store, the damage will be permanent. Moreover, it only takes one corrupt source to infect a system with a computer virus. Finally, as many of you have pointed out, consumers already have a choice: they can choose Android and side-load to their heart's content. I don't understand why the EU got a burr in its saddle about Apple given that the EU mobile phone market is dominated by Android (see https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/europe/).



The governments of 27 countries or the people of 27 countries? There is a difference. I see political petitions all the time, but none have been about Apple's app store. I was in the EU for two decades but then the UK voted to leave (not something I supported and I wish Scotland would rejoin even if it means splitting from the UK). Still, what the EU does affects everybody on the planet, unless you are willing to allow Apple to disable side-loaded apps when consumers are outside the EU.
I think the issue is that general business and consumer computing platforms have been open & Apple demands a toll to distribute any paid software on their mobile platforms and allows no rivals.

Whenever this comes up, no one explains to me adequately why it’s not ok for mobile platforms to have locked down distribution when it’s ok for the Mac, windows etc to have ‘side loading’ and different app and games stores able to be installed.

Like I think I said , I have nearly exactly the same personal information on my Mac as I do my iPhone. And it’s ok.

I use my gf’s windows 11 pc and I have all of my ms account stuff on that - OneDrive, office docs and email and it’s ok too (although admittedly I trust windows’ overall safety to be way less than the Mac!).
 
I think the issue is that general business and consumer computing platforms have been open & Apple demands a toll to distribute any paid software on their mobile platforms and allows no rivals.
The concept of tolls is not new starting from prior to the App Store in 2008, when the resellers had exclusive control of what got sold and charged a hefty fee for distribution. My tax paying dollars are okay with this type of system.
Whenever this comes up, no one explains to me adequately why it’s not ok for mobile platforms to have locked down distribution when it’s ok for the Mac, windows etc to have ‘side loading’ and different app and games stores able to be installed.
I don’t think it has to be explained. The only criteria is 1) is it legal and 2). Does the customer know it and if the customer doesn’t like the system can they get a refund.
Like I think I said , I have nearly exactly the same personal information on my Mac as I do my iPhone. And it’s ok.
I have more personal information on my iphone/ipad than I do on my windows computer. Not to say, there is no PII and sensitive information on windows.
I use my gf’s windows 11 pc and I have all of my ms account stuff on that - OneDrive, office docs and email and it’s ok too (although admittedly I trust windows’ overall safety to be way less than the Mac!).
Having a lot of stuff on windows is not the same as having all financial documents and pii on windows.
 
Until you realize that those who complain the loudest about anti-hate-speech laws were always those, who proposed genocide as a solution to the problems of society.

The Weimar Fallacy

And then later they admitted, censorship probably helped them gain legitimacy, because some idiots were more concerned about Hitler's right to free speech than what he had to say.
Again, if you are threatening people, that’s a death threat and should not be taken lightly.
 
The concept of tolls is not new starting from prior to the App Store in 2008, when the resellers had exclusive control of what got sold and charged a hefty fee for distribution. My tax paying dollars are okay with this type of system.

I don’t think it has to be explained. The only criteria is 1) is it legal and 2). Does the customer know it and if the customer doesn’t like the system can they get a refund.

I have more personal information on my iphone/ipad than I do on my windows computer. Not to say, there is no PII and sensitive information on windows.

Having a lot of stuff on windows is not the same as having all financial documents and pii on windows.
OK, I get it - you're on the side of the company (Apple) being able to decide how it does business.

This seems to boil down to whether it's an antitrust issue or not - and I suspect that neither of us are qualified enough to give a legal opinion on that.

Philosophically, I am for open platforms and for being able to install what I want to on my device.

However - I do value Apple's work on safety and security - and in protecting less technically literate users.

(This isn't meant to be patronising. Most normal people do not hang around tech forums - and that's probably a good thing!).

I really value the work that Apple did on the App Store also, but in the last 5+ years, it's become a way to plump up Apple's service division mostly, rather than focussed on providing genuine value to users now.

Anyway - other app stores are coming to the EU next year of course. So I guess we'll all be able to see how that pans out.
 
Again, if you are threatening people, that’s a death threat and should not be taken lightly.
Make up your mind! Either you do have laws against hate speech enforced by the police and judiciary. Or you're scared by the possibilities of law enforcement enforcing the law, because the state can't be trusted. You can't have it both ways. Corporate self-regulation produces only arbitrariness and lawlessness. Not even Judge Dredd worked for corporate.
 
Make up your mind! Either you do have laws against hate speech enforced by the police and judiciary. Or you're scared by the possibilities of law enforcement enforcing the law, because the state can't be trusted. You can't have it both ways. Corporate self-regulation produces only arbitrariness and lawlessness. Not even Judge Dredd worked for corporate.
Someone should be allowed to say hateful things without the state saying a thing. (doesn’t make it good) Death threats are very different from hate speech. Someone shouting an offensive slur at me (which has happened to me) is not the same as someone who is threatening to kill me. Only in those extreme situations should the state ever get involved. Even then you must be careful that it wasn’t said in jest.
 
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Someone should be allowed to say hateful things without the state saying a thing. (doesn’t make it good) Death threats are very different from hate speech. Someone shouting an offensive slur at me is not the same as someone who is threatening to kill me. Only in those extreme situations should the state ever get involved. Even then you must be careful that it wasn’t said in jest.
And yet, it's always privately moderated forums, who overreact and ban people for having dissenting opinions. No policeman will come only because you said on r/vegan that eating animal protein is essential for a healthy diet. Since you as a society can't trust in the state to make the right calls on which speech to ban, you will only have very limited protection by law enforcement and rampant cancel culture among the public. This then results in Nippelgate and the Seven Dirty Words you can't say on TV or type in a **** chat.
 
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And yet, it's always privately moderated forums, who overreact and ban people for having dissenting opinions. No policeman will come only because you said on r/vegan that eating animal protein is essential for a healthy diet. Since you as a society can't trust in the state to make the right calls on which speech to ban, you will only have very limited protection by law enforcement and rampant cancel culture among the public. This then results in Nippelgate and the Seven Dirty Words you can't say on TV or type in a **** chat.
Then explain to me why the state would need to control hate speech again? If society makes its own standards, why would more be needed?
 
Then explain to me why the state would need to control hate speech again? If society makes its own standards, why would more be needed?
Why do football games have referees? Why don't let the players make up their own rules on the go and also decide which goals count. Because it's a dumb idea.

Americans self-governing their neighbourhood.

 
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Why do football games have referees? Why don't let the players make up their own rules on the go and also decide which goals count. Because it's a dumb idea.
You’re comparing a sport to the state. The reason I’m scared of state censorship is because it’s been used for the worse. McCarthyism censorship the US, censorship by the Nazis in Germany, censorship in the USSR, I could go on.
 
You’re comparing a sport to the state. The reason I’m scared of state censorship is because it’s been used for the worse. McCarthyism censorship the US, censorship by the Nazis in Germany, censorship in the USSR, I could go on.
But McCarthy was neither a policeman nor a judge, not even a referee. All these jobs come with a proper training program, role description and rule book to learn. He was just a politician abusing his right to free speech to infringe on the rights of others. If only there were rules in place to stop him! 😂
 
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Apple will just embarrass itself. EU will prevail as it has with usb c, internet explorer and any other major similar case. In Europe we don’t like monopolies

Yeah... the EU doesn't like monopolies? Sure... huge monopolies in the energy business. EON, RWE, Vattenfal, EDF anyone? They dictate the price and even can dictate conditions to governments through their lobbyists in Brussels.

The case of Internet Explorer different from this one. The EU wants us to believe that it is about choice, in reality it is only about the money: the percentage the App Store scrapes off each (in-)app sale. While many find this sales model unfair, this kind of normal in every other reseller business. Companies like Best Buy or Tesco also make their profits this way. They even steer prices.
It would make more sense if the EU simply sets lower limits on those App Store fees. Side-loading isn't the answer, it creates more possible problems than it solves something.
 
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Yeah... the EU doesn't like monopolies? Sure... huge monopolies in the energy business. E.ON, RWE, Vattenfall, EDF anyone? They dictate the price and even can dictate conditions to governments through their lobbyists in Brussels.

1. Shell ($365bn)
2. TotalEnergies SE ($273bn)
3. Uniper ($269bn)
4. BP ($222bn)
5. Glencore ($204bn)
6. Fortum ($173bn)
7. Equinor ASA ($148bn)
8. Enel ($142bn)
9. Gazprom ($138bn)
10. Eni S.p.A. ($136bn)
11. Lukoil ($125bn)
12. Rosneft ($111bn)
13. E.ON ($108bn)
14. EDF ($96bn)
15. Repsol ($74bn)

Congratulations, two of your four monopolists actually make it to the Top 15 of European energy companies by revenue. I'm so scared!
 
I think the issue is that general business and consumer computing platforms have been open & Apple demands a toll to distribute any paid software on their mobile platforms and allows no rivals.

Whenever this comes up, no one explains to me adequately why it’s not ok for mobile platforms to have locked down distribution when it’s ok for the Mac, windows etc to have ‘side loading’ and different app and games stores able to be installed.

Like I think I said , I have nearly exactly the same personal information on my Mac as I do my iPhone. And it’s ok.

I use my gf’s windows 11 pc and I have all of my ms account stuff on that - OneDrive, office docs and email and it’s ok too (although admittedly I trust windows’ overall safety to be way less than the Mac!).
Again, it would have been possible to ban Apple from denying developers access to its app store based on arbitrary and anticompetitive reasons while making Apple warranty apps for quality and security. That would have removed the whole issue about competition while enhancing security. The EU could have even required Apple to charge app store fees on a not-for-profit basis. Yet it chose to interfere with consumer choice for Apple's walled garden, and indeed any walled gardens companies had been planning in the future.

As for why the iPhone needs more security protection, mobile phones typically are subjected to far more different networks than desktops and even most laptops. FWIW, I do not store any sensitive information locally on macOS systems precisely because it is not as locked down as the iPhone.
 
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But McCarthy was neither a policeman nor a judge, not even a referee. All these jobs come with a proper training program, role description and rule book to learn. He was just a politician abusing his right to free speech to infringe on the rights of others.
That’s my point, politicians shouldn’t be involved in regulating speech. His rule book was supposed to be the US Constitution. However, he like many other politicians to this day, chose to ignore it.
 
That’s my point, politicians shouldn’t be involved in regulating speech. His rule book was supposed to be the US Constitution. However, he like many other politicians to this day, chose to ignore it.
McCarthy didn’t regulate free speech, he executed his unfettered right to use hate speech for populism and building himself a career on destroying other people’s lives without evidence that any of his accusations are actually true. He is the reason that you can’t have absolute free speech and need rules to stop this abuse.
 
1. Shell ($365bn)
2. TotalEnergies SE ($273bn)
3. Uniper ($269bn)
4. BP ($222bn)
5. Glencore ($204bn)
6. Fortum ($173bn)
7. Equinor ASA ($148bn)
8. Enel ($142bn)
9. Gazprom ($138bn)
10. Eni S.p.A. ($136bn)
11. Lukoil ($125bn)
12. Rosneft ($111bn)
13. E.ON ($108bn)
14. EDF ($96bn)
15. Repsol ($74bn)

Congratulations, two of your four monopolists actually make it to the Top 15 of European energy companies by revenue. I'm so scared!

You don't need to be scared. Its a plain fact that E.ON, RWE, EDF as electricity providers have a monopoly in many regions in Europe. And as you appear to live in Berlin, you should know what RWE and E.ON do in Germany. Its been on the news for years. In some parts they even neglect to do maintenance. Not profitable.

You can choose where you get your gasoline or natural gas to heat the house, but you cannot choose which provider delivers electricity at home. They operate with different brand names so it looks like that the consumer has choice, but in reality its not. Its always the same company. Some people can divert to off-the-grid systems, if they have the resources.
 
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Again, it would have been possible to ban Apple from denying developers access to its app store based on arbitrary and anticompetitive reasons while making Apple warranty apps for quality and security. That would have removed the whole issue about competition while enhancing security. The EU could have even required Apple to charge app store fees on a not-for-profit basis. Yet it chose to interfere with consumer choice for Apple's walled garden, and indeed any walled gardens companies had been planning in the future.

As for why the iPhone needs more security protection, mobile phones typically are subjected to far more different networks than desktops and even most laptops. FWIW, I do not store any sensitive information locally on macOS systems precisely because it is not as locked down as the iPhone.
Ok. But I think another App Store will be ok.

And for those in markets not in the eu (including me) it won’t even affect you. Yet.

Because i think when people see what the eu is getting, they’ll want it too.

Anyway. We’ll all be able to judge for ourselves in about 4-5 months time.
 
McCarthy didn’t regulate free speech, he executed his unfettered right to use hate speech for populism and building himself a career on destroying other people’s lives without evidence that any of his accusations are actually true. He is the reason that you can’t have absolute free speech and need rules to stop this abuse.

Communist Control Act of 1954

Again, I am not supportive of communism, but I am supportive of people's freedom to like it.
 
I am listening to my own words loud And clear. Most people in Android world don’t care about sideloading. Thus it is a disproportional response to unilaterally hate iOS sideloading. The current divide in opinion can only be attributed to propaganda from Apple and Apple fanboys.
Still not answering the question of why we need to do this at all if only a small portion of users use the feature.
And if at the end of the day all it is for is to tinker with the device. I'm not seeing the value for the efforts to enable said features. If you want it, buy and Android and do whatever you want. Leave the existing closed solution alone for those that want it that way. No toggle "Switch" needed.
 
Still not answering the question of why we need to do this at all if only a small portion of users use the feature.
And if at the end of the day all it is for is to tinker with the device. I'm not seeing the value for the efforts to enable said features. If you want it, buy and Android and do whatever you want. Leave the existing closed solution alone for those that want it that way. No toggle "Switch" needed.
Because those who don't tinker and don't care about tinkering have a tough time grasping the basics of why people who ask for tinkering do so repeatedly. Apple has been historically extremely anti-customization on everything, which means a sizeable number of users would be forced to endure their pain points while using iOS.

Also, to counter your failure to understand the value of the efforts to enable sideloading on iOS, I fail to understand why every time tinkering and heavy customization is involved, "go to use Android" gets thrown around numerous times, as if forcing frustrating users to migrate everything to a completely different platform just because of one or two pet peeves in iOS is the best solution for them, or they are entitled to suffer simply because their usage is "not endorsed by Apple", or worse, to be punished simply by how they are using their device.

Apple has proven itself to be unwilling to adapt to every demand customer is asking. Fair, but then don't expect people will be happy if they are forced to fit a square peg into a round hole.
 
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Still not answering the question of why we need to do this at all if only a small portion of users use the feature.
Because freedom of choice is absolutely necessary for a functioning market economy! The mere possibility that a popular app like Fortnite could leave the AppStore and market itself over the internet will keep Apple second guessing their store rules and pricing policy.

How many people here demand the return of modular RAM sticks? It’s not because they were better than Apple Silicon’s unified memory, it’s because they want an alternative to Apple’s insane upgrade prices. Every monopoly comes with a bunch of downsides for the customers.
 
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