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What exactaly is this??? and how is it better than whats out now...also how is it better if you wait for this or by a MB when they update it to C2D??
 
buffalo said:
Another vote for the smaller notebook. I would love something nice and small that's does the basic things: internet, Word, iTunes, iPhoto. I wouldn't mind a Macbook, and am thinking about getting one next year but would love to have something in the 11-12" range possibly under 4 pounds.

How much would something like this likely cost? Even if it's not flash.

Totally agree. I'm waiting with credit card at the ready...😎
 
Neat development.

I currently have a Sharp MM20. Love it. Only weighs about 2 lbs.

I know that Apple will probably never do it, but I would love to see a 12 inch with no optical, flash memory, 120GB HD, long battery life, with a weight less than 3 lbs.
 
buffalo said:
Another vote for the smaller notebook. I would love something nice and small that's does the basic things: internet, Word, iTunes, iPhoto. I wouldn't mind a Macbook, and am thinking about getting one next year but would love to have something in the 11-12" range possibly under 4 pounds.

How much would something like this likely cost? Even if it's not flash.
A price range between MB and MBP?

Macrumors said:
Rumors of Apple looking into this Flash-caching techology has previously been reported with claims that they may go into an "ultra-portable" laptop by Macworld San Francisco in January, 2007.
Dammit this rumor (in my mind) = more waiting! 😡
 
joeshell383 said:
Not Apple, but the Samsung Q30SSD (only available in Asia) doesn't have a hard drive. Only 32GB of NAND flash memory.

http://www.laptoplogic.com/news/detail.php?id=921
Wow, that's almost what I was talking about earlier in the thread.

Now if you could weather-seal the keyboard for dust / rain, seal most I/O ports and the battery compartment, and make the screen robust oyou would have a SWEET portable for field use. Photographers, journalists, outdoors enthusists, communters who are rough on their laptops, etc.

Edit - I forgot video users, sicne the SSD has 50+ MB/sec reads/ 28 MB/sec write transfer speeds!
 
I'm not really seeing the benefit in this... It reduces boot time by a factor of two-- so it's saving me like 30 seconds every month. If this was really to improve disk storage performance, they'd put it in the disk drive (a la Samsung). If they're going to open it up for run time use, it seems there's going to be a battle to gobble up a limited resource-- tragedy of the commons...

And flash is one of those components where demand keeps out stripping supply. Constant supply headaches that have just been exacerbated by the rise in digital lifestyle devices (phones, iPods, cameras). Putting these on a motherboard is just one more sourcing nightmare.

So, why is this happening? I'd have to guess that a big reason for it is that Intel has traditionally been a leading supplier of Flash memory and has seen itself eclipsed by the likes of Samsung. They've just introduced their own line of "Serial Flash" (being careful not to refer to it as "NAND Flash") and they're trying to lock in a market.

Personally, I wouldn't need Flash in anything, but I would be stoked if this led to a ultra-light portable.
 
Analog Kid said:
I'm not really seeing the benefit in this... It reduces boot time by a factor of two-- so it's saving me like 30 seconds every month. If this was really to improve disk storage performance, they'd put it in the disk drive (a la Samsung). If they're going to open it up for run time use, it seems there's going to be a battle to gobble up a limited resource-- tragedy of the commons...

Sing it. We all know shared resources can't be managed by operating systems. I mean it isn't like CPU time, HD allocation, I/O, or RAM are shared resources. Right?

Anyway, seperating it from the drive shouldn't drive up part costs, and increases flexibility for other applications (cf. journalling, transactions, cacheing under OS-control rather than device control, etc.)
 
zwida said:
Been looking forward to this for years. I know that boot times have come down significantly in the last few years, but instantaneous on from startup would be pretty amazing.

I've also been hearing rumors of this for years and from the looks of this we might see it in computers very shortly (hopefully).

Besides faster booting is there any other huge benefits for the flash memory in a computer, I wasn't too sure after reading the article 😕
 
Cinch said:
I think one of the disadvantage with flash NAND storage is its ability to write (~100,000 times max). You may wonder how many time do we need to save a word file, but storage space management are done all the time with OSX with or without our knowledge.

Apparently there are ways to extend nand life expectancy - ensuring all of the memory is used equally and error correction for example. Seagate can't see it as being a problem as their hybrid drive will come with a 5 year warranty.

It will also depend on how it is used. If everything was going through it then there would be a lot of writes but if it was more selective (eg just os and selected application files) then it won't be that bad. Besides, if it wasn't workable and with a decent life expectancy then they wouldn't be doing it.
 
ezekielrage_99 said:
I've also been hearing rumors of this for years and from the looks of this we might see it in computers very shortly (hopefully).

Besides faster booting is there any other huge benefits for the flash memory in a computer, I wasn't too sure after reading the article 😕

Lower power usage which should result in laptops laster longer between charges.

Otherwise it depends on the data that is stored on it - frequently used applications for example, which would then load and run quicker.
 
ezekielrage_99 said:
I've also been hearing rumors of this for years and from the looks of this we might see it in computers very shortly (hopefully).

Besides faster booting is there any other huge benefits for the flash memory in a computer, I wasn't too sure after reading the article 😕
When one replaces the HD with Flash Memory, rather than supplementing one as this rumor seemed to state, the Samsung link pointed out numerous advantages. They note that their Solid State Drive (SSD) has faster read /write, can handle double the shock of a HD, and then is easier to retrieve data from if it fails (i.e. no heads crashing onto platters to make life hellish!).
 
so, sounds like a nice update next year.

that said. sometime ill need to upgrade my laptop.

im just hoping the meroms come soon, with a nice grpahics chip and a larger hard drive. im thinking 160 gb hd.
 
k8to said:
Sing it. We all know shared resources can't be managed by operating systems. I mean it isn't like CPU time, HD allocation, I/O, or RAM are shared resources. Right?
It's interesting though how quickly we can name those limited resources-- because we've got to think about them all the time.

Do you ever run out of CPU time-- no, things just take longer. You will run out of Flash storage though. CPU Time is essentially divided evenly among running applications-- should we partition persistent storage evenly among all applications on the system?

HD allocation is not a limited resource-- HD space is essentially limitless...

Volatile RAM is essentially limitless with good virtual memory support to the limitless hard drive. In the places where this assumption breaks, it causes pretty severe hardship as the system thrashes to disk endlessly.

I/O is a limited resource, and most system design has been devoted to reducing the number of limited I/O ports. No more parallel port, no more serial ports. USB, Firewire, Ethernet-- all are essentially unlimited resources.

k8to said:
Anyway, separating it from the drive shouldn't drive up part costs, and increases flexibility for other applications (cf. journalling, transactions, cacheing under OS-control rather than device control, etc.)
In a laptop, the cost will be identical-- one computer, one hard drive, one flash bank. What is soldered where won't make a difference. In a desktop though, you start running into problems again-- how many hard drives can be supported by that single bank of flash? When I start removing and inserting firewire drives-- how does the Flash know if it will ever see a given drive again?

Caching through flash is useless-- it's slow for one thing, and since a cache is transient by definition there's no reason to use Flash rather than DRAM.
 
Analog Kid said:
It's interesting though how quickly we can name those limited resources-- because we've got to think about them all the time.

Do you ever run out of CPU time-- no, things just take longer. You will run out of Flash storage though. CPU Time is essentially divided evenly among running applications-- should we partition persistent storage evenly among all applications on the system?

CPU time is absolutely exhaustable. Sometimes things taking longer is not acceptable, because it impacts usability, or because applications have deadlines. If your music player cannot get sufficient cpu time to decode then the music will break up, which is generally considered undesirable. In other arenas missed deadlines can result in data loss or malfunction. An assembly line robot that misses its deadline is not acceptable. A medicine pump program that misses the shutoff deadline can kill people.

Granted there are some applications in which CPU time exhaustion is not a problem, but it still occurs, and the operating system must contend with the problem and continue to allocate CPU time to necessary system functions to keep the system working correctly in the face of the exhaustion.

Depending upon what facilities the flash storage is provided for, some form of allocation will be possible that will work for most use cases. As a fancy os-controlled cache, exhaustion won't be catastrophic. As a fixed allocation structure, a failure to acquire the desired allocation may be handled by the program, or may not resulting in failure. These problems _already_ apply to memory and disk allocation. No big new problem here.

Your claims that ram and disk are limitless are factually untrue. I certainly have dealt with real production machines which have exhausted either or both. It has been interesting noting which applications fail and which continue to work correctly in the face of exhaustion.

Caching through flash is useless-- it's slow for one thing, and since a cache is transient by definition there's no reason to use Flash rather than DRAM.

Flash transfer rates for read can easily outpace fixed disks. For write I don't know what the numbers are, but as I pointed out in another post, flash has no seeks, which can matter a lot for some loads and not much for others. Microsoft is seeing wins by prefetching data to flash devices _over USB_, so surely it must be possible to achieve wins on flash devices with more robust access paths.

For cache purposes, the reason to use Flash over DRAM is that per-megabyte the cost of Flash is lower, and Flash takes no power to leave programmed. This may not be sufficient to make it worth it to add per dollar, but those are the advantages.
 
GFLPraxis said:
What are the advantages of NAND Flash other than booting faster? Is it anywhere near regular RAM in terms of speed?

Is double booting speed worth the price?
The reason why Intel wants to put these NAND flash chips is because not only it can boost start up speed and such, this can reduce power consumption since any data not stored on memory requires more power to fetch the data from the spinning hard drive. With this and other features included in the Santa Rosa package, it may increase battery life (I think the new 802.11n card will erase the surplus minutes).

A boring but interesting keynote presented by David Perlmutter explains the overall Santa Rosa chipset.
 
I'd go for a Nanobook! Or a Macnano...🙄

villanova329 said:
Bring on the final piece to Apple's marketing matrix!

Mac Mini -- iMac -- Mac Pro

_______ -- Macbook -- Macbook Pro


MacBook Mini!!! (or even Nano) =)
 
I've seen eDRAM being mentioned for onboard hard drive caching. You still have the old 8/16 MB buffer. You tack on another 256 MB of eDRAM internally to the drive.

The thing is that hard drive manufacturers and motherboard manufacturers are both pushing for adding more drive cache.

Hard drive makers can make it seamless and OS-independent.

Motherboard manufacturers can put cache onto a motherboard and it'll work with any attached hard drive. You'll need Windows Vista or maybe Leopard to take advantage of it though.

They both want to make more money. 🙄
 
I guess we will have to wait and see how the 16gig sony UX and that 32gig Samsung will fair in a few months. I am assuming the Samsung is going cost what 2400 to import to the state similar to the Sony UX prices? Or will it be cheaper since it is an actual laptop and not a umpc.
 
CaptainScarlet said:
All I know is that I ordered a MacBook for my wife on the 8-24 and the damm book STILL hasn't shipped yet!! ack!!

Next time I'll order the ram later....
contact apple, that is not normal!
 
I expect this to be a minor functionality upgrade.

It won't effect many things.

Spending £200 on a add-on Flash Drive won't give you the same benefit as spending £200 on adding more main RAM.

Where it will come in useful is in storing information when the computer is in a power-down state.

E.g. faster startups as mentioned. However, that doesn't effect Apple much as they're rarely rebooted.

A very useful area would be longer-lasting Sleep mode. My laptops often run out of power while in Sleep. Flash drives could really help with longer life while in Sleep or more battery charge remaining when waking from Sleep.

IBM laptops have had 'Hibernate' for a while - where the RAM memory is saved to HD and read back on waking. It was nice but buggy, as often it didn't play nice with Windows, which often needed rebooting anyway.

Don't expect it to give longer battery life while in use - adding £200 of RAM would have the same effect of extending battery life anyway.

As I said, a nice incremential improvement but nothing earthshaking.
 
k8to said:
Flash transfer rates for read can easily outpace fixed disks. For write I don't know what the numbers are, but as I pointed out in another post, flash has no seeks, which can matter a lot for some loads and not much for others. Microsoft is seeing wins by prefetching data to flash devices _over USB_, so surely it must be possible to achieve wins on flash devices with more robust access paths.
NAND flash seeks. NOR flash does not. The flash they're looking at here is NAND which has a serial access strategy. The seek time may be faster than disk, but it is paged and sequential access (25ns) is much faster than random access (25µs). Write time is 220µs. Erase is 1.5ms. All faster than disk but much, much slower than DDR DRAM.

This is great if you're using Flash instead of disk, but that's an expensive option and not what is being discussed here. For caching, it seems pointless.

k8to said:
For cache purposes, the reason to use Flash over DRAM is that per-megabyte the cost of Flash is lower, and Flash takes no power to leave programmed. This may not be sufficient to make it worth it to add per dollar, but those are the advantages.
Where do you see Flash being cheaper than DRAM? I know that's not true for NOR and find it hard to imagine that it's true for NAND. Disks also require no power to leave programmed. The only advantage of Flash over DRAM is that it's non-volatile its only advantage over disk it that it's faster.

The only advantage I can see is faster load times for pieces of the OS stored in Flash. It just doesn't seem worth the cost and hassle of adding that kind of complexity unless it's used for non-standard operations like playing media without needing to boot.
 
I think that part of the idea is less of a cache as you are thinking in the traditional terms, and more of a place to hold information about your system. This way you can have critical peices of information at hand and available at any time. Like when you put your computer to sleep,not just on power up. The traditional method keeps everything in memory, which requires full power to the memory chips. Go to a flash based system and you can store a bunch of information without having to keep power active. Basically making the system somewhere in-between standby and hibernate for power savings, with no drawbacks.

You could, in theory, put that same information on a hard drive, but there is no guarantee it will not be fragmented to hell and back, slowing down transition times. If you don't use a traditional file system on the flash, you are all set. Just use something completely custom for cache only purposes with no drawbacks of requiring a traditional allocation table.
 
MoparShaha said:
I certainly hope Apple is working on an "ultra-portable". None of the current laptops are small enough to replace my 12" PB.

A friend of mine has a 12" powerbook, it's plenty small, but it's much bulkier than my macbook, it's only wider because of the widescreen.

An ultraportable notebook would be so awesome, it's too bad that i'll have to wait while the price drops just a bit and all possible bugs get ironed out. One thing my experience with my macbook has taught me: never feel like a beta tester again. These new macs boot pretty fast, a flash driven MB would be damn near telepathic, at least ideally : )
 
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