EU countries have ~450 mln population, don’t overestimate.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Gets EU Warning to Open iOS to Third-Party Connected Devices
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
EU countries have ~450 mln population, don’t overestimate.
us in the UK normally get features long before the EU, glad to be out of the dictatorship, I hope the UK doesnt follow suit, I don’t want an open source iOS that will be disastrous. We don’t even have the 3rd party App Store and I’m definitely happy with that
Even when the UK was in the EU they still often got features sooner than other EU countries. Apple don’t do releases based on region traditionally, rather by country.
Let’s try not to mix things up in order create a point which doesn’t exist, just to enable you to inject your political opinion.
Anyway, if you think the U.K. government isn’t going to immediately follow suit with similar regulations then you’re not thinking it through properly.
Finally, no one is suggesting, least of all the DMA, iOS should be open source.
It absolutely adds up. Stealing from Apple is wrong if they were in last place or first place. Revenue is not profit. Revenue is not market share. There’s a reason traditional anti-trust laws use market share. Your own EU says 40% is the number that should be used. Apple’s share is almost 15% lower than that!
The burden of proof is on the selfish ones taking away millions of consumers’ choice for a closed, integrated system when an open alternative exists and is dominating the market. But like the bullies that they are, they’re demanding the smaller player in the market do what they want so they get their way.
the elephant in the room is there is one iOS code base.
yes the EU has geo unlocked additional features for alt app stores.
but the code is there in v17+ for everyone, everywhere.
anyone who has ever coded knows this means another bit of code that someone who exploit.
and plenty try to.
there is now no code base for the vast majority of people, in the EU or outside, who bought their Apple devices because they were tightly controlled by Apple (yes, Apple still get to sign apps from alt stores).
the wishes of a small but vocal minority have potentially opened the rest of us who were quite happy using the devices we bought and the rules that Apple applied with no option.
saying "dont use the alt app store" isnt the point. the code that allows it is embedded in everyone's OS now.
the EU has taken that away from us.
Even if we dont live there.
the only bright hope is the forced opening up isnt popular nor profitable.
i've yet to hear anyone wanting it say "geez I'm now going to spend a lot of money in those alt app stores..."
the iOS app subscription store hasnt been much of a carrot given the few positive comments about it.
if Apple gave EU iPhone users a choice at initial setup to load Android or iOS, I wonder how many would choose Android? The EU claim to be about user choice well doing that would get Apple off the hook. The user controls what experience they have on their phone.
You need to read up a little on the history of your beloved if inanimate idol if you think that Apple wouldn’t steal from anyone they possibly could.
This is really good news and I would love these changes to get implemented worldwide We've already got quite a few options for fast pairing devices with Android and Windows and Apple has recently developed an open API that could help improve pairing with third party products.
We've already got quite a few options for fast pairing devices with Android and Windows and Apple has recently developed an open API that could help improve pairing with third party products.
Seems like the “goalposts” conversation being moved because it can’t be admitted the dma is a crafted lousy piece of legislation.
You know what’s funny that you’re defending the use of revenue and not maket share as a metric. I understand you support the dma and will fight for its principles even if wrong. Apple is entitled to charge for its services buts its market share in the eu is 27%.
Period.
Last edited:
Never said Apple hasn’t stolen. Two wrongs don’t make a right though.
Going to ignore the insult there, but try to do better.
Security has never been about restricting the user's choices as much as possible just for the sake of it being "safer". It has actually been about the complete opposite, about finding new ways to provide as much freedom to the customers and users of software and hardware platforms as possible while making those experiences safe enough.the elephant in the room is there is one iOS code base.
yes the EU has geo unlocked additional features for alt app stores.
but the code is there in v17+ for everyone, everywhere.
anyone who has ever coded knows this means another bit of code that someone who exploit.
and plenty try to.
there is now no code base for the vast majority of people, in the EU or outside, who bought their Apple devices because they were tightly controlled by Apple (yes, Apple still get to sign apps from alt stores).
the wishes of a small but vocal minority have potentially opened the rest of us who were quite happy using the devices we bought and the rules that Apple applied with no option.
saying "dont use the alt app store" isnt the point. the code that allows it is embedded in everyone's OS now.
the EU has taken that away from us.
Even if we dont live there.
the only bright hope is the forced opening up isnt popular nor profitable.
i've yet to hear anyone wanting it say "geez I'm now going to spend a lot of money in those alt app stores..."
the iOS app subscription store hasnt been much of a carrot given the few positive comments about it.
if Apple gave EU iPhone users a choice at initial setup to load Android or iOS, I wonder how many would choose Android? The EU claim to be about user choice well doing that would get Apple off the hook. The user controls what experience they have on their phone.
I'd say, considering that iOS has not had a single kernel exploit in the past 365 days, it's about time we consider opening the gates now. Also, you're completely wrong. If the code isn't accessible, then it's much harder to exploit. And exploits will keep happening, it's just a matter of when. And you actually want Apple to be able to find new exploits sooner to get them patched out.
Apple has notable market power and control due to its various marketplace restrictions (at least prior to complying to DMA regulations) and controlling one of only two major operating systems as well as having the larger of only two major mobile app stores, one of if not the bestselling smartwatches, one of it not the bestselling smartphones, etc. As I said, the EU approach is to look at overall power/market control related to things like core services/ecosystem and not necessarily just straight market or usage share.
Apple has notable market power and control due to its various marketplace restrictions (at least prior to complying to DMA regulations) and controlling one of only two major operating systems as well as having the larger of only two major mobile app stores, one of if not the bestselling smartwatches, one of it not the bestselling smartphones, etc. As I said, the EU approach is to look at overall power/market control related to things like core services/ecosystem and not necessarily just straight market or usage share.
Is that also your argument as to why the U.S. is suing Apple? Both situations involve very similar violations, or is that just a coincidence?
The point was that in both situations, Apple has been able to use various opportunities and arguments to try to avoid being subject to local laws.
The fact of the matter is that adding a bunch of unnecessary code, designed to let programs not vetted by Apple run on its devices, is almost certainly going to make iOS users’ security worse.
The same marketplace restrictions that every company has when releasing their own products and having a "monopoly" in the products they develop. Android has about 70% market share. So in your world of a duopoly that gives android the notable market power and control. Apple is influential because of it's ability to produce a product that people want to buy.
There are others, but as I pointed out previously can ios and android collude? Can they agree to set market prices? Do they stop any competition from entering the marketplace, other than by popularity?
However, as shown they aren't only mobile app stores, so there is competition. Popularity is not legal reason for regulation.
No it didn't. It targeted apple with very craftily worded documents by using revenue not market share.
The fact the US is suing apple is fantastic, because it will finally put to bed those whose vocabulary starts with "anti" and "mono".
The point is if the EU used market share as a metric of control, apple is way down. There is no argument apple isn't influential, of course, a company doesn't have to be big to be influential, but the EU used apples revenue to determine marketshare. It's my feeling the DMA will eventually fall apart.
Last edited:
It’s not unnecessary. It’s necessary. Now that’s cleared up.
Adding code doesn’t automatically make anything less secure, if it’s well written code. If you have an os as big as apples, with a security model as world class as apples, then I don’t think it’s too much to suppose they can add a bit more code without the world exploding. After all, there is another big os, Android it’s called. That’s just as secure and has an almost identical security model, and that seems to have coped quite well with the extra code to enable installing an app from more than one place.
Apples AppStore has had plenty of instances of unsavoury apps on it - and even now it’s full of terrible little apps charging 5-10 a week for some useless subscription or other, to change icons etc. It’s hardly the role model of a safe haven, no matter what Apple says.
Anyway, there is an extremely small amount an app can do without a user telling it can do it, and even that is a difficult process, and even then only a limited amount can occur. iOS and Android work with extremely secure models using sandboxes.
That’s why it’s funny to hear the scary virus stories coming out of the mouths of apples babes with regards to Android.
These days they cant exist in the manner they do on normal os’s, if only they would try to understand instead of assuming. The way people are tricked is by scams, and that comes from anywhere an app can be put, very much including apples AppStore.
Last edited:
You keep saying that, then when asked mumble Linux and reel off a load of Android forks.
What others?
Those are the others. Just like android is open source, Linux is open source and android is heavily forked.
So the issue becomes Apples iOS and Google Android + compatibles.
That’s not really the variation you’re trying to imply.
All but a tiny subset of them contain the same Google Play store preinstalled and the same Google services right there. Even grapheneOS, which comes degoogledand can remain degoogled if you wish, only has like 200,000 users, arguably one of the most popular and certainly most respected Android forks trying to be its own os - it’s still Android and it still relies on Google’s code. If Google closed the source code of Android GrapheneOS would cease to exist.
And non Android Linux isn’t currently close a viable thing on mobile, which you would know if you read up a bit about it and then perhaps maybe you would stop embarrassing yourself mentioning it as even slightly relevant in the conversation.
Not necessary. Android exists. Use it.
Was unaware Apple’s OS team is perfect and infallible. They should advertise that. And if you think Android is as secure as iOS please do your research.
Market share is routinely expressed as share of the overall market sales/revenue.
Do they?
„Traditional anti-trust law“ does not even mention market share explicitly.
They‘ve imposed obligations on the two biggest players in the market.
And antitrust never meant there‘s only one market participant to be regulated.
I’m pretty researched up on the subject. I suggest you look more into it than a cursory web search or what Apple based fan sites tell you.
Apple doesn’t need a FAQ like this
Remove malware or unsafe software - Android - Google Account Help
Malware is unsafe or unwanted software that may steal personal info or harm your device. You may have malware on your device if: Google signed you ou
support.google.com
Remove unwanted ads, pop-ups & malware - Android - Google Chrome Help
You might have unwanted software or malware installed on your computer if you experience: Pop-up ads and new tabs that won't go away Your Chrome homepage or search engine keeps changing without
support.google.com
Will it in the future? If the EU gets its way, yes!
That’s got nothing to do with OS security. These malware instances are purely gained from installing an app. Once the app is installed it can’t do anything unless you tell it to.
The same apps can exist and subsequently be installed on iOS, even via the not impenetrable AppStore.
More will likely exist should you sideload anything, but that’s why sideloading should be behind safety measures. People are stupid sometimes, and no OS can fix that.
It wouldn‘t. Because what operating system you ship on your hardware device isn‘t regulated by the EU.
The iPhone could be totally free/libre hardware and allow for any OS to be installed - if enough people choose iOS, that will be subject to the DMA‘s provisions.
Complete FUD, given how - even by your own admission - Apple still gets to review and sign apps distributed through „alternative“ means.
I would have thought you knew better (considering you‘ve participating in similar discussions for a while), but:
This „fact of the matter“ is simply wrong. We‘ve already discussed that.
Last edited:
No it’s not. Can you cite examples from various industry segments where this “routinely” occurs, such as the EV market, the tv market, the washing machine market, the agricultural market, the housing market. Routinely implies widespread.
It’s only “routinely” because the eu did it.
They imposed regulations on a company that has 27% market share. In no one’s definition that is a majority.