Wow, I must get ripped off in my country because here all that stuff would be about 1K new
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Apple Grabs Record US PC Market Share On Strong Mac Sales in Q3 2014
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Wow, I must get ripped off in my country because here all that stuff would be about 1K new
I have no love for Microsoft either but there's a bunch of religion in this thread. Windows really does work fine, OSX really does work fine, the SW you need to do a job should define what OS you use not the other way around. At work I need OSX all my SW is OSX based, at home that isn't the case so I don't use it there.
You lose your bet. And your attitude that all PCs are uglier and louder than Macs is one of the most obnoxious things about apple Fanboys that really turn people off from buying macs.
Between the water cooler and 200mm case fans, my machine is too quiet to hear even with the CPU running 100%. You do understand that a larger fan means more airflow at slow RPM which means very quiet operation, right? And you know the whole point of the water cooler is it's quiet, right?
With literally 1000's of PC cases to choose from, you can't possibly believe that every single possible user thinks the mac pro is prettier than ever single PC case out there, can you?
The mac has to be Jonny's way or the highway. The PC gives me 1000's of choices. So absolutely my case looks a lot nicer than the mac iTrashCan. And I have 5 internal hard drives and an internal DVD burner. So compare the look my 1 box to the look of the iTrashCan and 6 other boxes dangling around it. Plus all their individual power cables and power adapters.
As for the dual workstation GPUs, that's the worst thing about the mac pro. Just because I want decent consumer-class desktop performance in my computer, why should I have to waste thousands of dollars on render-farm GPUs that will sit idle 100% of the time? Once again, Apple means it's Jonny's way or the highway. They have zero interest in giving people the computers they want.
So no, you lose your bet on every single point. And you've given a great example of why a lot of people want nothing to do with apple users. which is another reason apple is still in single digits.
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I never said it was under 1k, and since I gave my spec list because you asked me what hardware I had for the price I did say I paid, I assume you're just trolling.
You don't need to defend yourself you made decisions that I wouldn't but they're your decisions. You could have said you built a DP super station with Phi's and the like and people would still criticize.
It's running windows 7.
I bought that motherboard because it was one of suggestions from TonyMacx86 that worked best with OSX. I had Mountain Lion on it for a while but found it easier to just use Windows.
I've been building windows machines since AMD K8 days up until Ivy Bridge. Trust me I know the custom PC very well. The fact that you're using water cooling with huge fans to match the Mac Pro's silence shows how much inferior your machine is. You can't match the engineering of the Mac Pro with off the shelf parts. It doesn't matter how many thousands of cases/parts is available to you. You can't build a windows machine that is as small, silent, and as powerful as the Mac Pro.
Wow. Well you can't argue with blind fanaticism, so I won't even try.
I will say it is truly amazing that Apple has so many people so blindly devoted to them that they can't even see what it is right in front of them.
Blind? how so? I just stated that I've built windows machines since K8 and I know you can't match the build in the current Mac Pro. You can't disprove that since your argument has turned into personal insults.
Yes. But pretty much just for the occasional game. I'm running Windows 7 and I probably haven't booted in in 6 months since both Borderlands 2 and X-Com are OSX compatible.
You were replying to a post where I point out that cheap consumer PC hardware easily outperforms the mac pro. So first you automatically assume my build is big, loud and ugly.
So you blindly assume all PCs are loud, ugly, and big. You have no idea what's out there and when someone shows it to you directly, you blindly refuse to see it. In your world view if it's PC it must be a cheap clunky pile of junk. And that belief of yours takes priority over all facts or evidence anyone could ever present you with.
You KNOW I can't match the build in the current Mac Pro. Doesn't matter what I do or show you, you blindly KNOW the Mac Pro has to be better. If only Jesus' Apostles had as much faith in him as you have in Apple.
You know Water cooling and big quiet fans are a poor design? How do you think your car is cooled? If Apple does't use it, it must be lousy Engineering in your world view.
I think the iTrashCan is one of the ugliest computers I've seen in the past 10 years. That is my opinion, and my world doesn't come crashing down around me because you don't agree. You seem to think because it's from Apple, nobody can possibly think any computer case looks nicer. In your world view, Apple's design is absolute perfection and any other designer's work is complete crap.
Your utter devotion to Apple is beyond creepy.
And don't think I'm anti-apple, I like their products, besides the PC, I have 2 mac minis and a MBP in current use. I just believe in using the right tool for the job and don't blindly worship a corporation.
Yeah, his wipes the floor of the new Mac Pro in every measure that counts to a regular consumer. The Mac Pro has an incredibly NARROW useful market (certain video professionals). For everyone else, it's an overpriced under performing (for GPU for things like gaming) trash can.
I can't "trust" you because what you say is utter nonsense. Honest to god, you sound to me like a junior high school student who is on the Net pretending to know about computers when you say absurd "super power" things like that 'you can't match the engineering...' bit. Do you even know what engineering is? Making a computer look like a trash can is not engineering. It's a beauty contest (and an odd one at that). The Mac Pro is FAR from silent when it's asked to do some actual work. It has no internal expansion, uses non-standard video cards so you can't upgrade them or switch them to something potentially useful for other things. It's Jony Ive trying to be cool. The problem is it's NOT cool. It's a round gimmick. It starts at $3k. For $3k, I could build one kick-arse gaming rig that would run circles around that Mac Pro. I could build an audio workstation that does far more for far less. The Mac Pro should be called the Mac Video Editor because that's what it's designed for, not a general class workstation for a variety of uses. Ask the scientific professionals how useful OS X has become over the years for things like simulations. They used to actually love Macs. Not anymore.
Care to give some examples instead of just posturing? It's a known FACT that the most software that is dual platform for Windows and OS X came out on Windows first and often are behind several versions in features and compatibility. (e.g. Office was notorious for this for many years). The reason so many Windows users can't STAND Mac users is the pretentious nature of the Mac FANATIC who thinks Apple makes the absolute best product in every possible area and those of us that are realists know that this is a load of horse crap. I WISH I could get the hardware I actually WANT for OS X, but now that Apple has made an UGLY MESS out of OS X with Yosemite, I'm not sure such hardware would be as much fun to use.
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I'm suggesting that some of us have built with x86 even before the Intel was the only game on the block. I'm also suggesting that you not drag out how long ago you've been building computers when your building only goes back a couple years some might find it an bit funny. I'll also suggest you read the person you quotes comments throughout the thread, he never stated he built a computer with the same form factor as the Mac Pro only that it was as powerful as and as quiet as the Mac Pro. I'd argue the power point but it's not hard to build a silent or quiet computer anymore no matter the form factor. I'd also argue that the nMP reaches a level of niche never before seen by a Mac, simply put if you don't use OpenCL heavy SW then the nMP is truly a waste of a few grand. Apple has left CUDA types out in the cold, so really if you use a CUDA then anything with an nVidia GPU will be faster and more powerful in real life than any nMP.
We all know that it's impossible to build the Mac Pro regardless of form factor for as cheap as they are selling them but that form factor and parts selection doesn't work for many. With the cMP you could outfit it the way you need it, like any other workstation. The sacrifice of build flexibility for form did not sit well with many people. Workstations are there to do a job consistently without error, they're not there to be the fastest thing on the block, nor the prettiest. Apple has in essence moved away from that and that's perfectly OK but folks still need to get stuff done so they might just be a bit annoyed, that'll mean solutions that are not in the Apple ecosystem.
I have Asus P8H61 based machine, i3, 8 GB of RAM, with ATI Radeon HD 6570, SSD and 1 trb hard, DVD drive. I get sound from USB external card and have Yosemite on that, works as well as my Macbook air 2013 (well imessage no go but I can live with that)
It screams and I uninstalled Windows 7 partition, now Windows-free. And I bought a lot of software from AppleStore or directly from companies for my dear Mac (well, hackMac) ----------
I think he had the display before making a new thing. CPU and mainboard, RAM are probably 400 dollars. Others small change.
I was building computers in the early 80s, so indeed, a few years is funny. I kind of get bored with it now. Put in the CPUs and glue blindfolded and using one hand to make it interesting... (If I put it in while the power was on, it would be even more ;-)... Do I feel... Lucky ;-).
I sometimes use custom high grade power supplies and fans as a starting point. Would be overkill and way way too expensive if I couldn't scoop them off a friend who designs sleek electrical thingamajigs for work
. I test his designs and if the setups don't catch fire, I give him the AOK... ;-).LOL.
Some of you have turned into the typical Mac v Windows thread. The article is about market share.
There is a base of enterprise users that will never change. However, in the consumer market Apple is making small incremental gains. iPhone and iPad have been a gateway for more folks to try Macs. This is going to continue.
Consumers are more concerned about the experience of how they interact with the device than the specs. Mac provides a highly satisfactory experience.
Apple doesn't need to approach 30% or more of the overall desktop/laptop market. They are interested in a different segment. Other gains are merely incremental.
Some of you have turned into the typical Mac v Windows thread. The article is about market share.
There is a base of enterprise users that will never change. However, in the consumer market Apple is making small incremental gains. iPhone and iPad have been a gateway for more folks to try Macs. This is going to continue.
Consumers are more concerned about the experience of how they interact with the device than the specs. Mac provides a highly satisfactory experience.
Apple doesn't need to approach 30% or more of the overall desktop/laptop market. They are interested in a different segment. Other gains are merely incremental.
11yrs+ since K8 is a couple years? I'm suggesting that I know what's out there available to the windows builder. I'm not saying I'm a 30yrs+ windows build guru.
If you read his latest post he didn't deny that he can't build a windows equivalent to the Mac Pro in the same form factor that is as silent and as powerful. My argument is that it's not the same as the Mac Pro.
Yes, that's the point I was trying to get across. A custom build cannot match the Mac Pro's form factor, power, and silence.
It's not difficult to build a machine more powerful than the Mac Pro. I can pick out parts blindly and it'll be more powerful than the Mac Pro.Yeah, his wipes the floor of the new Mac Pro in every measure that counts to a regular consumer. The Mac Pro has an incredibly NARROW useful market (certain video professionals). For everyone else, it's an overpriced under performing (for GPU for things like gaming) trash can.
The Mac Pro is cooling dual GPUs and a 130w cpu with a single fan, no water cooling in a case that's smaller than mini itx. I would say that's incredible.
Why are you comparing a workstation to a gaming computer? LOL. Who's the junior high school student again?
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Why on god's earth do you think there's a "difference" between the two? You're talking about purpose, not function when you call it a "workstation" (yes, the CPU has protected memory, but nothing says a computer used for gaming cannot use such a CPU and the CPU is not the problem when using it for gaming, but the GPUs or rather the utterly lack of choice regarding them). In fact, the only thing you seem to be "impressed" by is the CASE design. Give a computer a big enough fan and you only need ONE fan. Take the sides off a traditional tower and stick a big box fan next to it. You won't need any internal fans at all! You find THAT impressive? Yes, I think you do. You just said you did when you said "incredible".
That is in fact the reason I said your knowledge appears to me to be lacking on the subject. You talk about the Mac Pro being incredible, but it's not the computer inside that you find incredible, but the CASE and FAN that cools it. You could create a Commodore 64 motherboard to fit inside that thing and the case would function the same to cool it. That says NOTHING about the computer itself. In other words, you are amazed by a CASE, not a COMPUTER and from what I read didn't seem to know the difference between the two.
I personally DON'T CARE if the Mac Pro has a small footprint or if it's a big tower so long as it can do what I need it to do (i.e. I'm NOT buying a Mobile Computer, so I DON'T NEED IT TO BE SMALL!) If I need PCI or GPU slots, it's a FAIL. If I need GPU power for gaming, it's a FAIL. WTF does it matter if the Mac Pro is 5 inches tall or 5 feet tall if it cannot meet my needs or other people's needs (whether gamer or audio professional)??? Bragging about the CASE to that guy when whining about his Windows machine??? WHO GIVES A CRAP?!?
Apple Grabs Record US PC Market Share On Strong Mac Sales in Q3 2014
A workstation is not the same as a gaming machine.
A box fan next to a tower case is just like a Mac Pro.?
I see you're incapable of seeing he whole package.
Why on god's earth do you think there's a "difference" between the two? You're talking about purpose, not function when you call it a "workstation" (yes, the CPU has protected memory, but nothing says a computer used for gaming cannot use such a CPU and the CPU is not the problem when using it for gaming, but the GPUs or rather the utterly lack of choice regarding them). In fact, the only thing you seem to be "impressed" by is the CASE design. Give a computer a big enough fan and you only need ONE fan. Take the sides off a traditional tower and stick a big box fan next to it. You won't need any internal fans at all! You find THAT impressive? Yes, I think you do. You just said you did when you said "incredible".
That is in fact the reason I said your knowledge appears to me to be lacking on the subject. You talk about the Mac Pro being incredible, but it's not the computer inside that you find incredible, but the CASE and FAN that cools it. You could create a Commodore 64 motherboard to fit inside that thing and the case would function the same to cool it. That says NOTHING about the computer itself. In other words, you are amazed by a CASE, not a COMPUTER and from what I read didn't seem to know the difference between the two.
I personally DON'T CARE if the Mac Pro has a small footprint or if it's a big tower so long as it can do what I need it to do (i.e. I'm NOT buying a Mobile Computer, so I DON'T NEED IT TO BE SMALL!) If I need PCI or GPU slots, it's a FAIL. If I need GPU power for gaming, it's a FAIL. WTF does it matter if the Mac Pro is 5 inches tall or 5 feet tall if it cannot meet my needs or other people's needs (whether gamer or audio professional)??? Bragging about the CASE to that guy when whining about his Windows machine??? WHO GIVES A CRAP?!?
A workstation is not the same as a gaming machine.
A box fan next to a tower case is just like a Mac Pro.?
I see you're incapable of seeing he whole package.
A workstation CAN be a gaming machine if you want it to. You don't seem to comprehend that basic fact. Many people bought previous Mac Pros for gaming as it was the ONLY Mac with the ability to run gaming level graphics cards. Of course, that was before Apple decided to make this abomination that uses custom connectors, making it impossible to repurpose the machine. But the ONLY difference between a Mac Pro and a "gaming machine" is the GPU and the CPU used. A Xeon is overkill (memory protection isn't needed) for a gaming machine, but it doesn't hurt it either. It's really ONLY the GPUs used that keep the current Mac Pro from being a good gaming machine. Beyond that, there is NO DIFFERENCE between a "workstation" and high-end gaming machine other than its intended PURPOSE.
A box fan next to a tower case is just like a Mac Pro.?
No, you just don't get it. Everything you talk about is the CASE and FAN (i.e. cooling). How is COOLING high-end engineering??? One needs to look at the machine's performance, expansion and connections to see what it can really do and those can all be easily matched or exceeded with stock PC parts. There is nothing special about the Mac Pro other than the fact it looks like a trash can. Big Deal. That trash can isn't even rack-mountable. WTF *WANTED* the perfectly serviceable Mac Pro to be turned into a TRASH CAN??? WHO???? An updated version of the prior machine would have sufficed perfectly and left a lot more room for expansion and other uses. No no no. Apple had to do a Johnny Five special and make it into fashion instead of a usable machine. It's good for certain video editors and not many else. Apple seems hell bent on killing their professional markets except perhaps video editing.
...uh that's the two biggest parts of a computer. If a workstation and gaming GPU were the same, everyone would just buy a gaming GPU. A gaming GPU can do compute, but not as well as a workstation GPU.
Because you can't build a Mac Pro yourself. Performance, expansion and connections, you can get off the shelf. You think it's about 1-2 isolated things, but it's the whole package that makes the Mac Pro's engineering impressive. You can rack mount a Mac Pro.
Actually with Apple unified driver model the gaming GPU will do compute just as well as the workstation card in Windows that is not the case because you can install a driver specific to the application you're running. OSX and Linux get gimped by both AMD and nVidia in that respect. The second thing is that form factor that you adore many do not like everything else on the Mac Pro can be added into a more traditional computer to include TB. Third by including only a single CPU they've cut the number of available PCI lanes so when you throw two cards in on the reduced lanes you only get 4 for everything else so now things are multiplexed. Fourth you cannot in any real sense rack mount a Mac Pro, you couldn't really rack mount the last one either but neither is much important to most because they tend to be single seat workstations. As is stands right now there are better options with other workstation OEM's for a significant number of the old Mac Pro customer base whether that matters to Apple or not is up to Apple.
You act like a "workstation gpu" is ONE thing. Workstation just means it's used for WORK. There's a difference between a workstation for still photos and one for video editing and one for 3D ray tracing. That distinction has diminished in more recent years as projects blur, but WHAT you use should depend on what you NEED. Apple offers ONE choice. One choice does not fit all, particularly at that price range. Most pros want memory protection (particularly workstations used for programming, but those people don't need the GPUs in the Mac Pro at all unless they're making 3D apps and a game maker wouldn't particularly want that GPU at all). You see what I'm getting at? There's a REASON why towers have traditionally always had GPU *SLOTS*. That way you can put whatever card you need in there. You buy the motherboard with the CPU/RAM setup you want, add any ram you need and choose your GPU and then look at your power supply needs. Add any drives needed and voila, you've got a full blown computer.
Whether you're using it as a workstation, a Internet browsing machine, a game machine or some combination thereof, the PROCESS is still the same except for Macs. With a Mac you look at what they offer and make the best compromise you can stand. That's it. There is nothing else anymore. You used to be at least able to pick a low-end Mac Pro setup and add your own ram/hard drives and GPU that you wanted and you only paid t through the nose for base CPU setup. Long long ago that wasn't even an issue. You could buy a consumer PowerMac instead and put in it anything you wanted. They even sold CPU upgrade kits. Things weren't so different from PCs back then (I've still got an upgraded G4 Dual Audio sitting here, although it doesn't get much use these days).
It depends on what your job is. If you're a game programmer you want a gaming GPU because that's what you're designing it for. If you're a musician you don't want a Pro video card. It has no function in writing music! And yes, a LOT of Mac Pro owners used to do music on them. Do you think they want to pay for TWO Pro Video cards they aren't going to do anything with? Of course not. That never used to be an issue before. The thing is, it still shouldn't be an issue. The cards do plug into slots. The problem is that they are non-standard and so Apple has to provide the cards and they don't give a crap. Why they couldn't use an industry standard slot is beyond me.
I don't think it's impressive AT ALL. That's my point. It's a machine in search of a task. It doesn't NEED to be that compact and it didn't NEED to lack expansion room and it didn't NEED to have non-standard connections. What is Apple's OBSESSION with making things small? Why does a DESKTOP need to be tiny? Do you think a professional cares about owning a tiny workstation or would they prefer one they can add PCI cards to and change the GPU when its updated? What is there to be impressed by? It uses one central fan? So what? That's my box fan across a tower point. Why does using one fan make it impressive? It's small? So is a notebook.
I've seen the "rack mounts" to make them fit. They look ridiculous and are far larger than necessary and not supported by Apple. The new Mac Pro is a bad design for such things. They used to make a nice rack mountable blade style server, but I guess they didn't sell enough to bother.
Alright kids, settle down. How about we compare workstations to workstations? So much drama for no reason. You both should just stop trying to justify which is better. Buy what you guys buy. Sheesh.
Just FYI, there are differences between workstation graphics cards and gaming graphics cards. Yes, they use similar parts, etc...However workstation cards also contain drivers that's suited for certain applications. But in essence, they're all exactly the same hardware.
Some people don't see the bigger picture here. The Mac Pro is designed to be portable and quick to move. Nobody is asking the bigger questions here. Why doesn't it have internal upgradability? Simple. If you were really a working professional, be it photography, video production, etc...You'd know that MOST professionals move from place to place a lot. So they use external storage a lot. They don't care about internal storage, etc...Just FYI I do both photography and video production, and guess what? I haven't used internal storage for years. Just slap a fast SSD for the OS, and use external for everything else, keeps everything fast and efficient, plus I can swap things quickly and take it on the go if I need to. The Mac Pro is designed for a specific set of professionals, so if you don't like it, then obviously you aren't the target market for it.
Why do they charge so much for it? To keep normal consumers buying consumer products, and professionals buying pro products. Simple. It doesn't matter if the consumer product is "faster", it's not why these professionals are buying these obscenely expensive products. They buy it because it provides reliability and customer support. That's something you can't get when you build it yourself.
How many "normal" people do you know that upgrade their computers normally? Just because you're tech saavy, doesn't mean that everyone else is. Everyone else usually just gets a new computer, because they don't know how to upgrade. So all this arguing about upgradeability, etc...It doesn't apply to the normal consumer.
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