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Yes ? What about it ?

Samsung-galaxy-ace.jpg


No bezel, flat front to a curved back, looks nothing like any iPhones previously made.

I was talking about the button. And while you shouldn't be able to go after someone for this (I don't Apple has), it even has a 1:1.5 aspect ratio.

As a side note: I like the three-button variants of the Samsung Galaxy S [II].
 
I was talking about the button.

What about it ?

And while you shouldn't be able to go after someone for this (I don't Apple has), it even has a 1:1.5 aspect ratio.

Well, 1:1.5 aspect ratio is a given when you're using a 1:1.5 aspect ratio resolution, which is very common on mobile devices, not just the iPhone ;)

Unless you want to claim Apple invented 480x320 ?
 
Is there any concept of 'fashion' in the law, regarding lawsuits like this?

Over time, different styles, shapes, colours become fashionable. For a while, flip phones were all the rage, now you hardly ever see them. Can/should the court take this into consideration - that inevitably as tastes change devices will follow that trend, without necessarily copying anyone specifically.
 
What about it ?



Well, 1:1.5 aspect ratio is a given when you're using a 1:1.5 aspect ratio resolution, which is very common on mobile devices, not just the iPhone ;)

Unless you want to claim Apple invented 480x320 ?

No one ever told you? :rolleyes:
 
What about it ?



Well, 1:1.5 aspect ratio is a given when you're using a 1:1.5 aspect ratio resolution, which is very common on mobile devices, not just the iPhone ;)

Unless you want to claim Apple invented 480x320 ?

No, I don't claim Apple invented the 1:1.5 aspect ratio. I redact my previous comment in light of what you said. I usually only think in terms of new smartphones.
 
And there is the crux of the problem. What defines "innovation"? Apparently not common sense looking back to Amazon One-Click patents. Compuserve retroactively going after people using the .gif format, and what about domain squatters just buying up dictionary words and brand names 15+ years ago?

You're right in that I agree if a company has true innovation, not just a slightly different combination of existing prior work (one click shopping cart), and files a (sane) patent, they should have a period of time in which to enjoy the fruits of their labor. If they file patents and don't release a product, and that patent is simply extending prior art or is common sense, versus true technical achievements, like a new synthetic material, a new CPU (which technically builds on top of existing ideas, so should not be able to be copied intact, but that does not mean the ideas such as for example, L1-L3 cache, can not be), should be protected for a period of time, but common sense or prior art enhancements should be very limited, if at all.

Apple didn't write the first graphical user interface (xerox parc) nor invent the mouse, nor were they particularly great at multimedia or graphics (contrasted to Amiga, Atari etc.). They didn't invent the LCD, nor the tablet. They weren't the first touch interface, either. One could easily argue that anything based on those items is simply a common sense extension, and assuming no apple copyright images were used, and no one secretly stole Apple's design files and CPU 'blueprints,' then once it entered the public eye, it shouldn't have protection at all, or for a very limited time, in that there is little actually revolutionary there.

Forbes said it well almost 10 years ago - the world is becoming insane with IP and litigation, where companies are formed solely to try to introduce and get approval on patents, to do little work of their own, to later try to 'blackmail' real companies based on those patents. There are quite a few areas, software certainly included, that it's entirely out of control. Common sense and intelligence should rule, but instead, lawyers and cash does, no matter how idiotic much litigation is. The mentioned Forbes article, an interesting read in hindsight.
http://www.forbes.com/asap/2002/0624/032.html

Inkswamp - if you have a true technological innovation, it should take quite some time for most to reverse-engineer it or duplicate it. If not, and it's simply common sense or an extension of the ideas and work of others, then it's called competition - do it well enough that it will fare well once the copycats jump onboard. If it's something that can easily be copied within 6 months or so, I'd say it falls into common sense, not a patent. Somewhere between those two points is a balance, but it's unlikely that the current state of fairs is that balance. I'll take honest and reasonably fair (but perhaps a bit less profit) competition any day over a monopoly built on patents and the abuse thereof.

Ahhhhhh, finaly someone with common sense and a grip on reality. Thanks for that.


As a sidenote I'd like to add that an injunction granted by the court in Düsseldorf is not something that is prone to stand. The judges in this specific court are notorious for ruling pro IP holders, while lacking the technical understanding of the cocept they are to rule about.
 
And there is the crux of the problem. What defines "innovation"? Apparently not common sense looking back to Amazon One-Click patents. Compuserve retroactively going after people using the .gif format, and what about domain squatters just buying up dictionary words and brand names 15+ years ago?

That's nothing, if you want REAL innovation, check this patent: 4022227 :p

Good post though. IMO though, patents should protect research (where someone has conducted useful research which doesn't necessarily have an immediate financial reward/return), but not engineering (where someone is just building a product/service to profit from).

The notion of "I did it this way, so no one else can do it the same way without paying me" is perverse to me. It's not just about preventing copying any more, it's also about companies doing their own engineering falling foul of patents they've never even heard of. I heard the backlog alone in the US patent office is about 700,000 patents. And that's just in the US. Does anyone honestly think any company can scan through thousands and thousands of vaguely worded patents to find all that might be interpreted to relate to their products?
 
How on earth did this injunction get passed?
Why on earth is there even a single person on here claiming that this is a good thing?
Completely nuts...
 
How on earth did this injunction get passed?

It is a pro-forma injunction. That is why Apple filed in Dusseldorf. According to their rules a company whose paperwork is in order automatically gets an injuction

See this article for information: http://www.osnews.com/story/25056/The_Community_Design_and_you_Thought_the_USPTO_Was_Bad

Why on earth is there even a single person on here claiming that this is a good thing?

Thats an easy one. You must be new here.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-19/...apple-store-apple-employees-brains?_s=PM:TECH
 
It is a pro-forma injunction. That is why Apple filed in Dusseldorf. According to their rules a company whose paperwork is in order automatically gets an injuction

See this article for information: http://www.osnews.com/story/25056/The_Community_Design_and_you_Thought_the_USPTO_Was_Bad

Thank you from all of us for that link... people should read all three pages of the article. What an incredibly broken system (and I'm not prone to making such dramatic comments).

The only redeeming factor is that if Samsung gets these shotgun design entries reviewed and the injunction lifted, Apple has to pay them damages.

Not that it matters to Apple. I don't think they expect to win. As I said previously, it seems clear that it's a broad delaying tactic while Apple prepares more realistic patent attacks in each individual country. Meanwhile, Samsung can't sell while the market and its tablet reviews are hot, and could lose lots of mind share.
 
It is a pro-forma injunction. That is why Apple filed in Dusseldorf. According to their rules a company whose paperwork is in order automatically gets an injuction

See this article for information: http://www.osnews.com/story/25056/The_Community_Design_and_you_Thought_the_USPTO_Was_Bad

Thank you from all of us for that link... people should read all three pages of the article. What an incredibly broken system (and I'm not prone to making such dramatic comments).

The only redeeming factor is that if Samsung gets these shotgun design entries reviewed and the injunction lifted, Apple has to pay them damages.

Wow, just wow. This makes the District Court of East Texas seem like the embodiment of reason and fairness.

I look forward to Apple getting slammed and getting slammed hard over this. And I hope that they get slammed harder in the court of public opinion than in the court of law.

The worst part of it is the realization that Samsung had no notice of any action until they received the injunction - no chance to argue, no chance to challenge Cupertino's claim. The Right Of Accused To Confront Witnesses is pretty fundamental to US law - it's part of our Bill of Rights. That right seems to be completely lacking for this injunction - Apple exploited the system to blindside a competitor.

The fact that Apple went in secret to block a competitor, without that competitor being able to defend itself against accusations made by Apple, just stinks. Something is rotten in Cupertino.


Not that it matters to Apple. I don't think they expect to win. As I said previously, it seems clear that it's a broad delaying tactic while Apple prepares more realistic patent attacks in each individual country. Meanwhile, Samsung can't sell while the market and its tablet reviews are hot, and could lose lots of mind share.

Apple stands to lose much more in the "mind share" game. A huge part of Apple's sales are due to a "cool factor" associated with Apple. Many here are already questioning whether "Apple is cool" - if the teens and pre-teens that are in the Apple stores updating their Facebook pages decide that "Apple is uncool", the stock will be under $100 tout suite.
 
Update: unlike the rest of Europe, the Netherlands injunction request merited a hearing, because it included some actual patents.

So today Samsung and Apple went before a judge there. Samsung brought up many of the items we've mentioned here, including the fact that the design looks like any picture frame, and that 1994 Tablet Newspaper prototype.

Samsung also argued that a court designed for summary judgements could not properly consider the patents involved.

The judge will rule in mid September on Apple's request. As he put it, "I will be thinking long and hard about whether this case justifies any form of injunction."

More here (Slashgear) and here (Reuters).
 
Update: unlike the rest of Europe, the Netherlands injunction request merited a hearing, because it included some actual patents.

So today Samsung and Apple went before a judge there. Samsung brought up many of the items we've mentioned here, including the fact that the design looks like any picture frame, and that 1994 Tablet Newspaper prototype.

Samsung also argued that a court designed for summary judgements could not properly consider the patents involved.

The judge will rule in mid September on Apple's request. As he put it, "I will be thinking long and hard about whether this case justifies any form of injunction."

More here (Slashgear) and here (Reuters).

And Apple probably should think long and hard about the injunction that they get from German judge. Should not they pay to Samsung for all the lost profits resulted from this injunction after Apple's claim get rejected (as it will be)?
 
I think Apple really think hard on this because their suits against other tablet makers could make the company on legal thin ice.

Here's the thing: in the late 1940's, the US government brought charges against the United Shoe Machinery Corporation for violating the Sherman Antitrust Act by using patent laws to shut out competitors. It was such a long and drawn out case that it resulted the the downfall of the company by 1976. In essence, Apple is using its patent portfolio on the iPad to shut out Android-based tablet computers, a big no-no under the Sherman Antitrust Act. The LAST thing Apple wants is an antitrust case filed by Federal government, because during the discovery phase of the case we could find out a lot of potentially anti-competitive practices Apple has been engaged in, which could tremendously expand the scope of the case.
 
The LAST thing Apple wants is an antitrust case filed by Federal government, because during the discovery phase of the case we could find out a lot of potentially anti-competitive practices Apple has been engaged in, which could tremendously expand the scope of the case.

But that is the FIRST thing that consumers want....


Apple's "walled garden" is an anti-trust judgement waiting to happen.
 
Here's a translation of the first day in court:

Apple and Samsung Thursday collided hard with each other in the court in The Hague. Apple demands a ban on the Galaxy Tab 10.1 and accuses Samsung of patent infringement.
Photo: NU.nl / Chris Heijmans

The companies disagree about the interpretation of patents, according to court pleadings.

Wednesday was all about two patents discussed techniques used in Android, the system in different phones Galaxy and Galaxy Tab. Thursday was yet another patent on gesteggeld and more about the appearance of the Galaxy and Galaxy Tab phones compared to the iPhone and iPad.

Unlock

The patent was the way Apple products are released. This is done by a lock symbol on a marked trail before dragging. Apple claims that Samsung products, it does.

Samsung is it disagrees and argues that there is a symbol that must be moved, but do not have a clear purpose intended path.

Model Law

The real controversy started to be when it was about the appearance of the Ace Galaxy, Galaxy and S Galaxy Tab. Apple has the right to design the look of the iPhone and iPhone. The companies, however, clashed over what this model entails exactly right.

According to Apple, it's about the overall impression of the Galaxy Tab is the same as the iPhone. Look for details is not necessary according to Apple, it's about the overall picture. According to the model law should also be tested by "craftsmen" who have knowledge of current and old models and the market follow.

General requirements

Samsung responded by arguing that the requirements of Apple's too general. So it is the rectangular shape, rounded corners, a shiny plate on the front above a touchscreen shielded by black or white edges.

According to Samsung, this design applied to any number of mobile phones and tablets, and Apple can not therefore claim to have right here. Apple argues, however, the Samsung devices in all fields match certain things while other phones have, but visibly distinguished with other elements.

Innovation

Then the two companies by arguing about the past. According to Samsung, there were both tablets and phones on the market before the iPhone and iPhone that had the above characteristics. Samsung refers to a Nokia 2004 and the LG Prada in 2006. An HP tablet, which was also equipped with a keyboard, would also have the same appearance as defined by the design right from the iPhone.

Apple reiterates that the aim is that these devices along with any agreements also have different elements. However, Samsung will demonstrate that the older devices that Apple is not that innovative.

Angry and surprised

The lawyers of the iPhone maker then hit back hard with statements about the lack of innovation from Samsung. "The iPhone was a GameChanger, Galaxy S is not," said the lawyer. "When people responded to the Galaxy S came out angry and surprised no one said it was a new device."

"We talked about it with Samsung. We do not want money, but want that Samsung will stop copying our products, "said Apple. Samsung threatened in the case between nose and lips with their own patents. "We have just as many patents as Apple, only ours are about real technology," says the lawyer for Samsung.

Complex

Samsung then shot out of his shoe on the court case in general. "This case is too complex to handle in a lawsuit whose only fourteen days before the arguments were clear our plea."

According to Samsung, Apple has ten patents, various devices and various techniques are lumped together and figure out what to Samsung phones, which in any way violate patents.

Android

The South Korean company is also furious that Android as a large part of patent infringement and that Samsung covers Google's systems to defend. Contact with Google and find out certain things, according to Samsung takes a lot of time.

The company therefore asks the court to rule that the case is too complex for a lawsuit. The charges would be treated in an ordinary lawsuit for months or even years could last.

Statement

The judge concluded that the case is indeed complex and that he would think hard about whether it is too complex. September 15, the expected verdict. The judge stated in his conclusion that any ban on Galaxy Products only at the earliest, would take effect Oct. 13.

At the end of the session, the press and other interested expelled from the courtroom because Samsung "essential and confidential information" would disclose.

Negotiate

Apple and Samsung will probably together for September 15 to negotiate the exchange of licenses to several patents. Then the patent side of the issue solved. Whether the companies to agree, is obviously open to question.

Regarding design rights and thus the appearance of the devices, the court actually rule. The Galaxy Tab would actually be launched in late August, but the press conference has been canceled and the expectation is that Samsung wait until after September 15.

A German judge ruled earlier this week that a temporary ban for the Galaxy Tab 10.1 applies throughout Europe, except the Netherlands. The trial in the Netherlands, including Galaxy for smartphones.
 
Some more news about the b*tchfight:

FRANKFURT - The appeal of the South Korean technology group Samsung against the temporary ban on the sale of its latest tablet Galaxy Tab 10.1 in the European Union, comes to court Aug. 25.
Photo: AFP

Samsung has announced that Friday.

Competitor Apple selling the new Samsung Tablet Tuesday prohibition by the court in Düsseldorf, Germany. It is a temporary ban in the EU, except the Netherlands.

In the Netherlands, a separate case Wednesday and Thursday treated. September 15 is expected to follow the ruling.
 
Is it me or are Apple a big bunch of hypocrites for suing Samsung just because Samsung did a device which is slightly better in certain areas (especially screen size).

Then again, this is Apple after all and they don't seem to like other companies innovating in certain areas, especially smartphones and tablet devices.

In fact, this incident has only served to get me interested in buying one in the UK when this stupid idiotic case gets thrown out of court eventually which it probably will seeing as there's no case to answer against Samsung at all!

I have a feeling there's going to be a backlash against Apple because of this especially as Samsung are doing well in both smartphones AND tablet devices.

If Apple getting an injunction against Samsung is a good thing then I'm Barack Obama!
Don't get me wrong, I like the iPad and as I said before, I definitely plan on buying a Galaxy Tab 10.1 alongside a iPad, I just don't like Apple's bullying tactics and hopefully they'll get what they deserve in the end.
 
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In fact, this incident has only served to get me interested in buying one in the UK when this stupid idiotic case gets thrown out of court eventually which it probably will seeing as there's no case to answer against Samsung at all!

Good point. By doing this, Apple gives Samsung more cred and exposure as a worthy competitor.

It's easy to tell when Apple is worried about something; they start slamming it in their stage presentations, such as when Jobs repeated that Samsung misquote earlier this year about "slow" sales. When Apple is confident, they don't mention the competition at all.
 
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