Apple Has 'Lost Sight of the Tech Industry's Founding Principles,' Says Epic Games CEO

[the8thark]

Apple and Google control all malls in the world

Incorrect

Apple and Google make billions of money selling phones

Correct

Apple and Google are so popular just because of all the apps

Incorrect

if there wasn‘t Insta, Twitter, FB, TikTok, WhatsApp - no one would care about smartphones. Only nerds and blackberry users would have a smartphone.

Incorrect

Apple and Google are the gatekeepers

Correct - for their own ecosystems only. The customer is free and able to choose another ecosystem to live in.

No one enters the market if Apple doens‘t like the app (for whatever reason)

Incorrect. No one enters a specific ecosystem if that someone breaks that ecosystem's rules. Literally all ecosystems work like this, be it physical like retail stores or one of the many many different digital app stores.

No one has a right to enter the markets (no one can sue Apple or Google)

Incorrect

Apple competes with other apps - or copies them

Partially correct. Apple does compete but does not copy. The US legal system would love to have apple sued for stealing someone else's app idea so Apple doesn't do it.

Smartphone markets gained a huge interest, no way to ignore smartphones

Correct.

Apple apps don‘t get charged a 30% fee, in opposite to competitors

Incorrect. Though taking money from yourself to just give it back to yourself serves no real purpose.

Basically this is what defines a monopoly. Smartphones are extremly important. You can‘t sell a car without a smartphone app (in the future) - but to have a smartphone app you have to obey Apple/Google. It doesn‘t matter if your are Ford, GM, BMW - if Apple doesn‘t like you or doesn‘t like your app you won’t enter the Smartphone business. And Apple/Google can kick your app whenever they want to - or let’s say because Trump doesn‘t like the app.

Incorrect. Also your are wrong about the politics you said. Trump is acting in the national interest. Millions can't accept this fact though.

So this has to change.

Incorrect.

 

[polaris20]

Of course. whenever a CEO says "it's not about the money" you can bet it is.

As for the principles of the early computer era, whatever happened to:
1. Providing physical media and instructions that you actually owned and could later sell, much like a book?
2. Putting the entire game on the media, and not charging for extras to make the game more playable while keeping the cash flowing?

I agree, but that's just not the way it is anymore. I'm even more pissed that there are $60 games shipping with a bunch of friggin' in-app purchases. WTF?

 

[Lone Deranger]

Okay Tim Sweeney. Not about money? Then let’s play a little game to see how sincere you are. You get what you ask for. In-app access to your own store-front... but with the stipulation that you can’t charge any money or other financial compensation from such transactions.

Your move.

 

[0924487]

Huh? Please explain. I used to have it installed on all my Android devices back in the day. It just had to be side loaded.

You can also sideload windows on mac, but that doesn't mean windows apps are supported on mac.

 

[TiggrToo]

You can also sideload windows on mac, but that doesn't mean windows apps are supported on mac.

Doesn’t answer my question. I stated the Amazon App Store was available on Android. You insinuated I was wrong.

Please don’t deflect from the question at hand: is the Amazon App Store available on Android devices by side loading, or not?

And note, Side-loading is a built in feature of Android, not a work around.

 

[0924487]

Doesn’t answer my question. I stated the Amazon App Store was available on Android. You insinuated I was wrong.

Please don’t deflect from the question at hand: is the Amazon App Store available on Android devices by side loading, or not?

And note, Side-loading is a built in feature of Android, not a work around.

I never insinuated that you were wrong. I insinuated that the fact you put forth was irrelevant.

In business and economics, anything not easy won't reach critical mass adoption to be meaningful in the business sense, therefore can be ignored.

Most people will not install a different app store on android unless they are from China. Amazon store can technically operate on all android devices, but it will never be the default on non-amazon devices, and never reach critical mass adoption to be relevant. Just like you probably will not install the Huawei app store or Tencent app store on your phone.

What makes a monopoly a monopoly? Barriers to entry. It doesn't mean a sandboxed market.

 

[TiggrToo]

never insinuated that you were wrong. I insinuated that the fact you put forth was irrelevant

Amazon App Store doesn't operate all most phones.

How is my point irrelevant? Which Android phones cannot load and run the Amazon app store?

 

[0924487]

How is my point irrelevant?

In business and economics, anything not easy won't reach critical mass adoption to be meaningful in the business sense, therefore can be ignored. What makes a monopoly a monopoly? Barriers to entry. It doesn't mean a sandboxed market. Whether or not Android phones can load third-party stores is irrelevant.

 

[TiggrToo]

In business and economics, anything not easy won't reach critical mass adoption to be meaningful in the business sense, therefore can be ignored. What makes a monopoly a monopoly? Barriers to entry. It doesn't mean a sandboxed market. Whether or not Android phones can load third-party stores is irrelevant.

You've lost sight of the original comment that I responded to:

• Apple and Google control all malls in the world

I simply stated that I believed this was not a valid metaphor. There are other "malls" not controlled by Google on Android. Granted they may not be in your locale and you may need to drive a little further, but they're there.

 

[0924487]

You've lost sight of the original comment that I responded to:




I simply stated that I believed this was not a valid metaphor. There are other "malls" not controlled by Google on Android. Granted they may not be in your locale and you may need to drive a little further, but they're there.

In business and economics, we only care about things in aggregate, in layman's terms, that's "effectively" or "de facto".

If you look at market share, you will see what I mean.

When gathering statistics, jailbroken or rooted phones will give false values, for example, but those values are not going to affect the report or analysis. They will simply be apart of the noise or error.

 

[TiggrToo]

In business and economics, we only care about things in aggregate, in layman's terms, that's "effectively" or "de facto".

If you look at market share, you will see what I mean.

When gathering statistics, jailbroken or rooted phones will give false values, for example, but those values are not going to affect the report or analysis. They will simply be apart of the noise or error.

How has that got anything to do with the metaphor?

Deflection your middle name?

I know all about market share, friction etc. I mentioned none of that - yet you are hyperfocused on it.
At this point I can only assume you've actually zero legitimate objection to my claim - I've given you multiple chances to explain your claim yet you are going off in tangents not pertinent to the issue at hand.

Amazon App Store doesn't operate all most phones.

You've failed to justify this statement.

 

[0924487]

How has that got anything to do with the metaphor?

Deflection your middle name?

I know all about market share, friction etc. I mentioned none of that - yet you are hyperfocused on it.
At this point I can only assume you've actually zero legitimate objection to my claim - I've given you multiple chances to explain your claim yet you are going off in tangents not pertinent to the issue at hand.




You've failed to justify this statement.

Metaphor what? This is called encapsulation. In Math, Science or Engineering, this is called X or "Don't Care" factor. You are nitpicking small details that don't change the conclusion regardless of yes or no.

Apple and Google dominate the mobile app store market, period.

 

[Colonel Blimp]

Amazon App Store doesn't operate all most phones.

Huh? Please explain. I used to have it installed on all my Android devices back in the day. It just had to be side loaded.

NINE posts later:

In Math, Science or Engineering, this is called X or "Don't Care" factor. You are nitpicking small details that don't change the conclusion regardless of yes or no.

 

[Pentium]

Greedy like usual... nothing less nothing more.

 

[Lone Deranger]

It's amazing that Epic's board signed off on this stunt. Epic has been booted from the main app stores and the lawsuit will take years to resolve.

How does this benefit Epic's customers? Epic's customers had no issues paying for Epic's IAPs.

What was the real plan and expectation? I doubt the Epic board expected to be shut down.

I think at this point Epic would be lucky to ever get back into Apple's good graces. Tim Screamey will have to do some major backpedaling and boot-licking if the keeps down this path. Look at what happened to nVidia. Still nowhere to be found in Apple hardware.

 

[Ubuntu]

Yeah. I've used this analogy too. I don't see how there can be any discussion/legal lawsuit after this analogy. Every retailer decides what goes in their store and how much they make. You can go sell your stuff at other retailers if you want, but you can't decide what goes in a store. It's called the App Store. It's a retail store. End of discussion. If Epic were to win, I'd go start selling stuff inside Costco and use the case as precedence.

It’s not a bad argument but the main difference is choice for a given user base. Imagine if you wanted to sell your product to an area where there was only one brand of shops so they could charge whatever rates they’d like and you have no other way to sell to that user base. That’s a more accurate comparison that doesn’t exist in the real world (as far as I know).

 

[Ubuntu]

I think at this point Epic would be lucky to ever get back into Apple's good graces. Tim Screamey will have to do some major backpedaling and boot-licking if the keeps down this path. Look at what happened to nVidia. Still nowhere to be found in Apple hardware.

You make it sound like Nvidia is losing out here but I’m not sure, because the Mac isn’t exactly a gaming platform they’re dying to target. They probably have their hands full providing graphics capabilities to the actual gaming platforms.

 

[Ubuntu]

Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut.

In all seriousness though, if this drama results in more legislators looking at regulating the GAMING industry, then I'd say it is a success. In my research I've only touched the surface of some of the tactics and techniques used by the gaming industry to exploit the addictive mechanism to bound people to its games, but its enough to make your hair stand on end.

Kids getting bullied for having default skins because they can't afford the ridiculous V-Bucks trash, kids stealing their parents CC so buy in-game lootboxes, kids spending all their waking hours hooked to a game that was intentionally designed to press every addition-forming button they can find, etc. Totally predatory and exploitative.

Instagram and social media gets a lot of crap for failing to address the spiraling addiction caused by its apps, but the gaming industry has been able to hide from scrutiny for way too long.

Agreed, that does need to be addressed because both companies are guilty of that.

 

[Lone Deranger]

You make it sound like Nvidia is losing out here but I’m not sure, because the Mac isn’t exactly a gaming platform they’re dying to target. They probably have their hands full providing graphics capabilities to the actual gaming platforms.

I'm sure nVidia's doing fine. Especially after snapping up ARM from Softbank for $40B. It wasn't the point I was trying to get across.

 

[theotherphil]

Both is correct. But have you met any kids/young people recently - are you aware of what they are doing with their smartphones?
90% of the users own a smartphone to take a selfie and upload it to a social network.

Simple as that. Maybe Insta wouldn‘t exist - Facebook did before. But be honest - how many iPhone Apple would have sold? Without all that social network stuff?

10% - 20%? Apple would be a $300-$500 billion dollar company today - far away from being a $2 trillion dollar company. Apple makes lots of money with the help of the developers.

I do all social media on Safari via my iPhone. I can remove the ads, not be tracked or listened to and not be bothered by notifications. The app actually reduces your freedoms - not sure why anybody would use them.

 

[savagemic]

Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut.

In all seriousness though, if this drama results in more legislators looking at regulating the GAMING industry, then I'd say it is a success. In my research I've only touched the surface of some of the tactics and techniques used by the gaming industry to exploit the addictive mechanism to bound people to its games, but its enough to make your hair stand on end.

Kids getting bullied for having default skins because they can't afford the ridiculous V-Bucks trash, kids stealing their parents CC so buy in-game lootboxes, kids spending all their waking hours hooked to a game that was intentionally designed to press every addition-forming button they can find, etc. Totally predatory and exploitative.

Instagram and social media gets a lot of crap for failing to address the spiraling addiction caused by its apps, but the gaming industry has been able to hide from scrutiny for way too long.

The removal of personal responsibility in our society is its ultimate downfall.

 

[savagemic]

Everyone is looking to be the 800lbs gorilla. Most of the big boys manage to do it successfully for a while until they miss the next big thing (IBM, Microsoft) and even then tend to be huge long after. I’m not saying I think this is a good thing but let’s not get nostalgic about “founding principles” here. Maximizing profit isn’t just a founding principle of the tech industry, it’s the cornerstone.

Maximizing profit is the founding principle of capitalism, it's not exclusive. I do believe that many companies, especially in America, are doing a better job of not profiting at all costs and looking at other impacts their actions may have.

 

[I7guy]

Maximizing profit is the founding principle of capitalism, it's not exclusive. I do believe that many companies, especially in America, are doing a better job of not profiting at all costs and looking at other impacts their actions may have.

Examples of companies that put profits above all else:
- Enron
- Bernie Madoff

Companies that are successful, thriving typically don't put profits before customers (and hence are not profiting at all costs).

 

[PickUrPoison]

<snip>
If you 100% agree to pay 10K right away, courts do not need to be involved and the contract is enforced without them.

You seem to have a unique definition of the word “enforce”. (It doesn’t mean “in force”.)

In your example, the two sides are merely following the terms of the contract. There has been no enforcement, and in fact the contract may not even be enforceable; that decision will be made by the court, should one of the parties file suit claiming it’s unenforceable.

That’s how most contracts play out. Both sides adhere to the contract and perform as expected. No enforcement is necessary in the vast majority of contracts.

 

[Ethosik]

You seem to have a unique definition of the word “enforce”. (It doesn’t mean “in force”.)

In your example, the two sides are merely following the terms of the contract. There has been no enforcement, and in fact the contract may not even be enforceable; that decision will be made by the court, should one of the parties file suit claiming it’s unenforceable.

That’s how most contracts play out. Both sides adhere to the contract and perform as expected. No enforcement is necessary in the vast majority of contracts.

Definition of enforce

transitive verb
1: to give force to : STRENGTHEN
2: to urge with energy enforce arguments
3: CONSTRAIN, COMPEL enforce obedience
4obsolete : to effect or gain by force
5: to carry out effectively enforce laws

Seems like the company my family works for and Apple are "carrying out effectively" the terms of the contract.

So you are saying they cannot fire the employee immediately (hint: the company my family works for has done this many many times)? So how is a contract unenforceable AT ALL until a court says so, yet people enforce contracts all the time? Apple pulled Fortnite from the App Store because that is what the contract said what would happen. Epic challenged Apple, and the court still agreed with Apple that Fortnite could return once they changed Fortnite to abide by the contract. It did not wait until the court said Fortnite could be removed.

Just like a court decision does not need to be made by Squarespace if I violate their terms by posting adult material.