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This really depends on products being compared.

Vision Pro is $3,499. Meta Quest Pro is $999. That makes the VP about 3.5 times the price.

The lower end iPhone at launch in 2007 was $499. The lower end Palm Treo at the time was $99. That made the IPhone about 5 times the price. Both through AT&T with similar terms.

The upper end iPhone at launch in 2007 was $599. The upper end Palm Treo at the time was $199. That made the iPhone about 3 times the price. Both through AT&T with similar terms.

3 to 5 times (iPhone vs. Treo) is in the same range as 3.5 times (Vision Pro vs. Quest Pro) but, again, it all depends on which devices are being compared.

I think we'll see a price drop on the Vision Pro and/or introduction of a lower level version within a year or so. Meta dropped the price of its Quest Pro from $1,499 to $999 about six months after launch.
If you’re going to compare the AVP with the next highest priced VR headset on the market and then draw parallels to the iPhone, then you need to use a better historical comparison. The BlackBerry 8830 came out a few months before the iPhone and it was priced at $299 after a $100 mail-in rebate with a 2-year contract. That makes the 8 GB iPhone only twice as expensive and without the hassle of a goofy mail-in rebate.


On Windows Mobile 6.0 you had the HTC touch for $250 after rebates and 2-year contract. iPhone only 2.4 times the price.


And let’s not forget Apple slashed the price just 2 months after launch because it was too expensive so now we’re talking a measly 33% more expensive than the closest competitors on the market.


“The surveys are in and iPhone customer satisfaction scores are higher than we’ve ever seen for any Apple product,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “We’ve clearly got a breakthrough product and we want to make it affordable for even more customers as we enter this holiday season.”

Guess we’ll see a big price drop by spring with as much of a breakthrough product as the AVP is.
 
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This really depends on products being compared.

Vision Pro is $3,499. Meta Quest Pro is $999. That makes the VP about 3.5 times the price.

The lower end iPhone at launch in 2007 was $499. The lower end Palm Treo at the time was $99. That made the IPhone about 5 times the price. Both through AT&T with similar terms.

The upper end iPhone at launch in 2007 was $599. The upper end Palm Treo at the time was $199. That made the iPhone about 3 times the price. Both through AT&T with similar terms.

3 to 5 times (iPhone vs. Treo) is in the same range as 3.5 times (Vision Pro vs. Quest Pro) but, again, it all depends on which devices are being compared.

I think we'll see a price drop on the Vision Pro and/or introduction of a lower level version within a year or so. Meta dropped the price of its Quest Pro from $1,499 to $999 about six months after launch.
My general philosophy, in part inspired by Apple, is that I would rather spend more on something that I like and which I know will serve me well / better, than spend less on something which I know won't work as well.

So my next question to everyone here is - what exactly am I getting for a $1000 meta quest headset? From what I have heard, it's objectively worse than the Vision Pro is every aspect except maybe the games library aspect. The Quest headset will definitely not be able to do the same passthrough at sub-12 millisecond or at the same resolution. It looks like I may actually be able to get work done on a vision pro (not least because it can serve as a giant external monitor for my Mac), but I have never head of people typing documents or editing video on a Meta Quest.

So if I am someone who gets motion sickness from the meta quest but am somehow able to wear the Vision Pro for extended durations without problems, then it doesn't matter how cheap the Quest headset is. I just can't use it.

The Quest is likely also more awkward to use without controllers or other input devices. It seems to be objectively worse at everything except maybe gaming.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that it will be tempting to lump the Vision Pro and Meta Quest together because they are both headsets, even though they both feel like fundamentally very different products to me with very different use cases, and this is due to the different design decisions and tradeoffs made by each company. It feels to me like people attempting to paint the vision pro as being overpriced by linking it to cheaper devices with similar form factors are being too superficial in their comparisons.
 
If you’re going to compare the AVP with the next highest priced VR headset on the market and then draw parallels to the iPhone, then you need to use a better historical comparison. The BlackBerry 8830 came out a few months before the iPhone and it was priced at $299 after a $100 mail-in rebate with a 2-year contract. That makes the 8 GB iPhone only twice as expensive and without the hassle of a goofy mail-in rebate.

As I stated, all of this depends on what is being compared. I only used Palm Treos because that is what the person I responded to had used. As far as AT&T (exclusive carrier for the iPhone in U.S.) and BlackBerrys are concerned, they wouldn't have sold the 8830 as it was a CDMA-network product and therefore only a Verizon/Sprint/U.S. Cellular offering in the U.S. However, the similar BlackBerry 8800 could be had through AT&T for as little as $199 at the time thereby making the $599 8GB iPhone 3 times more expensive at launch.



And let’s not forget Apple slashed the price just 2 months after launch because it was too expensive so now we’re talking a measly 33% more expensive than the closest competitors on the market.


“The surveys are in and iPhone customer satisfaction scores are higher than we’ve ever seen for any Apple product,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “We’ve clearly got a breakthrough product and we want to make it affordable for even more customers as we enter this holiday season.”

Guess we’ll see a big price drop by spring with as much of a breakthrough product as the AVP is.

As I also stated, I think we'll see a price drop on the Vision Pro and/or introduction of a lower level version within a year as it is not that unusual for Apple to lower prices on new products within a year or so. A couple of examples include "iconic" Apple products like the original Macintosh which was reduced in price in less than eight months (retailers had been discounting them before that too) and the original iPhone which was even more quickly reduced (and ticked off early adopters leading Apple to give them gift cards) in less than three months.
 
My general philosophy, in part inspired by Apple, is that I would rather spend more on something that I like and which I know will serve me well / better, than spend less on something which I know won't work as well.

So my next question to everyone here is - what exactly am I getting for a $1000 meta quest headset? From what I have heard, it's objectively worse than the Vision Pro is every aspect except maybe the games library aspect. The Quest headset will definitely not be able to do the same passthrough at sub-12 millisecond or at the same resolution. It looks like I may actually be able to get work done on a vision pro (not least because it can serve as a giant external monitor for my Mac), but I have never head of people typing documents or editing video on a Meta Quest.

So if I am someone who gets motion sickness from the meta quest but am somehow able to wear the Vision Pro for extended durations without problems, then it doesn't matter how cheap the Quest headset is. I just can't use it.

The Quest is likely also more awkward to use without controllers or other input devices. It seems to be objectively worse at everything except maybe gaming.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that it will be tempting to lump the Vision Pro and Meta Quest together because they are both headsets, even though they both feel like fundamentally very different products to me with very different use cases, and this is due to the different design decisions and tradeoffs made by each company. It feels to me like people attempting to paint the vision pro as being overpriced by linking it to cheaper devices with similar form factors are being too superficial in their comparisons.

Hopefully many of the questions regarding mixed-reality headset features, pros and cons, etc. will be able to be answered in the coming months as the VP and other devices see more real-world usage and direct comparisons are done. I think there is a real future in this market (whether Apple becomes the leader remains to be seen) but like with computers, cell phones, etc. it will take time to grow.
 
My general philosophy, in part inspired by Apple, is that I would rather spend more on something that I like and which I know will serve me well / better, than spend less on something which I know won't work as well.

So my next question to everyone here is - what exactly am I getting for a $1000 meta quest headset? From what I have heard, it's objectively worse than the Vision Pro is every aspect except maybe the games library aspect. The Quest headset will definitely not be able to do the same passthrough at sub-12 millisecond or at the same resolution. It looks like I may actually be able to get work done on a vision pro (not least because it can serve as a giant external monitor for my Mac), but I have never head of people typing documents or editing video on a Meta Quest.

So if I am someone who gets motion sickness from the meta quest but am somehow able to wear the Vision Pro for extended durations without problems, then it doesn't matter how cheap the Quest headset is. I just can't use it.

The Quest is likely also more awkward to use without controllers or other input devices. It seems to be objectively worse at everything except maybe gaming.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that it will be tempting to lump the Vision Pro and Meta Quest together because they are both headsets, even though they both feel like fundamentally very different products to me with very different use cases, and this is due to the different design decisions and tradeoffs made by each company. It feels to me like people attempting to paint the vision pro as being overpriced by linking it to cheaper devices with similar form factors are being too superficial in their comparisons.
I guess the question would be, do you or Apple think the AVP will usher in the mass adoption of VR (the way the iPhone did with smartphones) because it allows consumers to be a productive in a slightly different way? Did people decide they needed a smartphone rather than a typical flip-phone because they could edit word-processing or spreadsheet documents on the former? I very much doubt that. A device that gave you the Internet everywhere, GPS, a music and video player all in one are what drew people like moths to a flame to iPhone. The first demo topic at the original keynote was its function as an iPod. The iPhone’s big selling point was that you could now consume stuff on the go as well as have access to important utilities like a camera and GPS. If the AVP is going to usher in a new VR paradigm then it’s going to be because the everyday person feels like they need it. Everyday people don’t typically get drawn to electronics because of productivity features, they get drawn to ‘killer apps’ and I’m sorry but typing up documents and editing video ain’t that.
 
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As I stated, all of this depends on what is being compared. I only used Palm Treos because that is what the person I responded to had used. As far as AT&T (exclusive carrier for the iPhone in U.S.) and BlackBerrys are concerned, they wouldn't have sold the 8830 as it was a CDMA-network product and therefore only a Verizon/Sprint/U.S. Cellular offering in the U.S. However, the similar BlackBerry 8800 could be had through AT&T for as little as $199 at the time thereby making the $599 8GB iPhone 3 times more expensive at launch.





As I also stated, I think we'll see a price drop on the Vision Pro and/or introduction of a lower level version within a year as it is not that unusual for Apple to lower prices on new products within a year or so. A couple of examples include "iconic" Apple products like the original Macintosh which was reduced in price in less than eight months (retailers had been discounting them before that too) and the original iPhone which was even more quickly reduced (and ticked off early adopters leading Apple to give them gift cards) in less than three months.
We don’t even have to guess about this. We know from the original keynote what price points Apple was using as a benchmark. In a screen cap from the original iPhone keynote, Apple made it clear they were benchmarking pricing against an average $299 price point from competitors.

IMG_1164.png


“So what should we price it at? Well, what do these things normally cost? An iPod, the most popular iPod, $199 for 4 gig nano. What’s a smart phone cost? Well, they say you get the phone and some of the Internet with it, although that’s questionable. But they cost somewhere around $299. You can get them for $199. Palm just introduced one at $399 yesterday, so they generally average about $299 with a two-year contract.”

They also used the $499 model as their baseline pricing, so that narrows the gap even further.

Pricing for the AVP better drop fairly dramatically or it will remain a niche device that never sees rapid and widespread consumer adoption like the iPhone did. If Apple insists this is the next frontier, then they better make it feasible for a broad base of users to explore that frontier. If Apple had never dropped pricing on early iPhones it’s very possible we’d be in an Android/Windows Phone or Android/Blackberry world today instead of an Android/iOS world. People are going to adopt a competitor’s platform (or won’t participate at all) if you price them out.
 
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I guess the question would be, do you or Apple think the AVP will usher in the mass adoption of VR (the way the iPhone did with smartphones) because it allows consumers to be a productive in a slightly different way? Did people decide they needed a smartphone rather than a typical flip-phone because they could edit word-processing or spreadsheet documents on the former? I very much doubt that. A device that gave you the Internet everywhere, GPS, a music and video player all in one are what drew people like moths to a flame to iPhone. The first demo topic at the original keynote was its function as an iPod. The iPhone’s big selling point was that you could now consume stuff on the go as well as have access to important utilities like a camera and GPS. If the AVP is going to usher in a new VR paradigm then it’s going to be because the everyday person feels like they need it. Everyday people don’t typically get drawn to electronics because of productivity features, they get drawn to ‘killer apps’ and I’m sorry but, typing up documents and editing video ain’t that.

I believe Apple has the power to make spatial computing cool and socially acceptable. Which is a trait that other companies like Google, Microsoft and even Facebook simply don’t possess.

At the same time, Apple does what it does best - take an emerging product category with a frustrating user experience and deliver a polished product made possible by its control over both the hardware and software.

So it doesn’t really matter what people do on their Vision Pro. Just wanting to be seen wearing one in public will be enough. Similar to AirPods.
 
I believe Apple has the power to make spatial computing cool and socially acceptable. Which is a trait that other companies like Google, Microsoft and even Facebook simply don’t possess.

At the same time, Apple does what it does best - take an emerging product category with a frustrating user experience and deliver a polished product made possible by its control over both the hardware and software.

So it doesn’t really matter what people do on their Vision Pro. Just wanting to be seen wearing one in public will be enough. Similar to AirPods.
Apple could make it socially acceptable, but Apple needs to give people a reason to think they need this device before that can happen. I’m struggling to see what’s going to make people think they need a device 7 times the price of a typical competitor. Your argument is word processing and video editing?

AirPods are actually cheaper than a lot of competing headphones. And unlike you, I don’t imagine VR will be very popular outside of four walls. First, nobody wants to be robbed of their nearly $4k device while riding the bus/subway or walking around town. Second, a 2 hour battery life. You might see these get used on a plane, but that’s largely probably it. Coincidentally this is also the only place you see it being used outside of four walls in Apple’s own ad. If they’re wanting me to imagine using this outside of the home, then they didn’t do a very good job.
 
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We don’t even have to guess about this. We know from the original keynote what price points Apple was using as a benchmark. In a screen cap from the original iPhone keynote, Apple made it clear they were benchmarking pricing against an average $299 price point from competitors.

“So what should we price it at? Well, what do these things normally cost? An iPod, the most popular iPod, $199 for 4 gig nano. What’s a smart phone cost? Well, they say you get the phone and some of the Internet with it, although that’s questionable. But they cost somewhere around $299. You can get them for $199. Palm just introduced one at $399 yesterday, so they generally average about $299 with a two-year contract.”

They also used the $499 model as their baseline pricing, so that narrows the gap even further.

Pricing for the AVP better drop fairly dramatically or it will remain a niche device that never sees rapid and widespread consumer adoption like the iPhone did. If Apple insists this is the next frontier, then they better make it feasible for a broad base of users to explore that frontier. If Apple had never dropped pricing on early iPhones it’s very possible we’d be in an Android/Windows Phone or Android/Blackberry world today instead of an Android/iOS world. People are going to adopt a competitor’s platform (or won’t participate at all) if you price them out.

Those quotes don’t necessarily reflect what the market was actually offering at the time. The 8830 you had mentioned, which was not offered by iPhone-exclusive carrier AT&T, was available for $199 (or maybe even less) from other carriers. Below is a sample June 2007 Verizon ad. The 8GB iPhone, exclusive to AT&T, was 3 times more expensive. Other BlackBerry models and smartphones were being offered for even less.

The iPhone launched at too high of a price but was "corrected" less than three months later, ticking off early adopters. The next generation 8GB iPhone 3G was even cheaper the following year at just $199 (again, with 2 year AT&T contract) which represented a 2/3rds drop from the original 8GB iPhone's $599 2-year AT&T contract launch price.

As I've mentioned already, I fully expect there will be a price drop on Apple Vision products just as there have been price drops on other new Apple products in the past.

BB8830.jpg
 
Those quotes don’t necessarily reflect what the market was actually offering at the time. The 8830 you had mentioned, which was not offered by iPhone-exclusive carrier AT&T, was available for $199 (or maybe even less) from other carriers. Below is a sample June 2007 Verizon ad. The 8GB iPhone, exclusive to AT&T, was 3 times more expensive. Other BlackBerry models and smartphones were being offered for even less.

The iPhone launched at too high of a price but was "corrected" less than three months later, ticking off early adopters. The next generation 8GB iPhone 3G was even cheaper the following year at just $199 (again, with 2 year AT&T contract) which represented a 2/3rds drop from the original 8GB iPhone's $599 2-year AT&T contract launch price.

As I've mentioned already, I fully expect there will be a price drop on Apple Vision products just as there have been price drops on other new Apple products in the past.

View attachment 2344395
It does reflect what was available at the time. Typical pricing on a late model smartphone was in the $199 - $399 price range, including your example here from Verizon. iPhone at $499 versus this Verizon 8830 at $199 is 2.5x. And by September 2007 it would be just 2x versus this 8830. After the price drop the original iPhone was priced in the same range as its competitors, albeit at the premium end of that range, which is typical Apple. The AVP is well beyond the premium end of the range of its product category.

Why do you think there will be price drops on Apple Vision products? Maybe because the AVP is too expensive? And if you're going to use the most expensive $599 8GB model in your comparsion then we should also use the most expensive 1 TB AVP which costs $3900. So now we're almost 4x the nearest competitor and almost 8x the "usual suspects," to borrow Steve's words. There's no rational way to pretend the AVP's price in the market is no different than the iPhone's was. It ignores reality and is disingenuous, both in scale (1.25-2.5x for iPhone versus 3.5-7x for the AVP) and in raw cost: $499 = $730 adjusted for inflation versus $3499. The median individual monthly income is about $3370. By the time you take out income taxes, health insurance, and 401k contribution and add tax to the AVP, the average Joe would be expected to drop about two months worth of paychecks on this on a ~$40k/year salary. Not happening.

As I've made clear, this isn't a situation analogous to the iPhone. The price is astronomical in comparison and the advent of the smartphone had obvious and hugely beneficial use cases that a lot of people didn't already have a device for. What Apple has done with the AVP is flip the iPhone model on its head. It's akin to them having come out with the iPhone X back in 2007 with it's $999 price tag. Yeah obviously it would've blown people away even more than the original iPhone did, but almost nobody would have bought one when $499 was already too much. If Apple had followed the iPhone model here they would have come out with an Apple Vision priced at $1999. Yes it would've had less tech, but it surely still would've been impressive considering it would've been double the cost of its closest competitor. Then they could have built up to what the AVP is, like they did going from the iPhone to the iPhone X and now the iPhone Pro models.
 
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It does reflect what was available at the time. Typical pricing on a late model smartphone was in the $199 - $399 price range, including your example here from Verizon. iPhone at $499 versus this Verizon 8830 at $199 is 2.5x. And by September 2007 it would be just 2x versus this 8830. After the price drop the original iPhone was priced in the same range as its competitors, albeit at the premium end of that range, which is typical Apple. The AVP is well beyond the premium end of the range of its product category.

The $299 figure for the 8830 was not reflective as shown by the Verizon ad, as one example, offering it for $199 or 1/3rd less. The new upper end BB could be had for $199 compared to three times more for the upper end iPhone. Other BBs and smartphones were available for even less than that including Palm Treo which were mentioned by someone else. Apple "corrected" the too wide price discrepancy within three months and prices dropped even more the following year.



Why do you think there will be price drops on Apple Vision products?

Why? Because it's not uncommon for Apple (and/or authorized retailers) to have reduced prices on new products in the past, including the original Macintosh and iPhone which went on to be very successful for the company. In less than a year, new Macintosh 128K computers were selling for close to 40% below their launch retail prices (not counting the even bigger discounts in the education market). iPhone prices had dropped 33% to 40% in less than three months.

Why? Because new technologies whether it be televisions, VCRs, camcorders, computers, cell phones, etc. tend to start out with high entry/starting prices but those prices come down over time and the products become more affordable and mainstream.

Why? The mixed-reality headset market is going to grow/expand and competition is going to causes prices to come down.

In my opinion, the question is not if starting prices will come down but when and by how much.
 
The $299 figure for the 8830 was not reflective as shown by the Verizon ad, as one example, offering it for $199 or 1/3rd less. The new upper end BB could be had for $199 compared to three times more for the upper end iPhone. Other BBs and smartphones were available for even less than that including Palm Treo which were mentioned by someone else. Apple "corrected" the too wide price discrepancy within three months and prices dropped even more the following year.
Even if you want to blindly ignore Apple's own contemporaneous market research in an effort to try to pretend like your numbers make a difference, they don't. They still don't hit the AVP's much larger price difference.

Why? Because it's not uncommon for Apple (and/or authorized retailers) to have reduced prices on new products in the past, including the original Macintosh and iPhone which went on to be very successful for the company. In less than a year, new Macintosh 128K computers were selling for close to 40% below their launch retail prices (not counting the even bigger discounts in the education market). iPhone prices had dropped 33% to 40% in less than three months.

Why? Because new technologies whether it be televisions, VCRs, camcorders, computers, cell phones, etc. tend to start out with high entry/starting prices but those prices come down over time and the products become more affordable and mainstream.

Why? The mixed-reality headset market is going to grow/expand and competition is going to causes prices to come down.

In my opinion, the question is not if starting prices will come down but when and by how much.
Business 101, you don't lower your prices unless you're not moving product at a satisfactory level. Consumers will happily buy a product if the price is justified. If you're not moving product fast enough, it's because consumers aren't buying it because either the price isn't justified or there are better products on the market. If the price isn't justified, then effectively it's too expensive. Aren't we saying the same thing, just in a different way? Companies don't discount products out of the goodness of their heart.
 
Even if you want to blindly ignore Apple's own contemporaneous market research in an effort to try to pretend like your numbers make a difference, they don't. They still don't hit the AVP's much larger price difference.

I'm not blindly ignoring anything. The typical price of smartphones (with contract) when the original iPhone launched was $99 to $199 which potentially made the iPhone three ($199 vs. $599) to five ($99 vs. $499) times more expensive. This was "corrected" pretty quickly and iPhone prices were reduced $200. The price was even lower the the next year.



Business 101, you don't lower your prices unless you're not moving product at a satisfactory level. Consumers will happily buy a product if the price is justified. If you're not moving product fast enough, it's because consumers aren't buying it because either the price isn't justified or there are better products on the market. If the price isn't justified, then effectively it's too expensive. Aren't we saying the same thing, just in a different way? Companies don't discount products out of the goodness of their heart.

Terms like "justified" and "too expensive" can be subjective but there are all sorts of reasons how or why companies may set and adjust prices. From your basic supply, demand, competition, and general economic factors to various business model elements, product/brand positioning considerations, etc.

I will say again, I fully expect there will be a price drop on Apple Vision products. The question is when and by how much.
 
I'm not blindly ignoring anything. The typical price of smartphones (with contract) when the original iPhone launched was $99 to $199 which potentially made the iPhone three ($199 vs. $599) to five ($99 vs. $499) times more expensive. This was "corrected" pretty quickly and iPhone prices were reduced $200. The price was even lower the the next year.
You are ignoring them because you insist on substituting your own $99 and $199 figures. In any case, your inflated numbers still don't get to the 7x of the AVP versus typical competitors.
Terms like "justified" and "too expensive" can be subjective but there are all sorts of reasons how or why companies may set and adjust prices. From your basic supply, demand, competition, and general economic factors to various business model elements, product/brand positioning considerations, etc.
I covered supply, demand, and competition. "General economic factors" is so broad as to be meaningless.

I will say again, I fully expect there will be a price drop on Apple Vision products. The question is when and by how much.
As do I. The difference is that you do not anticipate that the reason for this will be slow sales after the initial rush due to current pricing being extraordinary. We'll either see a new cheaper version or a price cut on the AVP. In the case of the latter I wonder if Apple will give buyers another gift card as an apology for charging them so much money in the first place.
 
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You are ignoring them because you insist on substituting your own $99 and $199 figures. In any case, your inflated numbers still don't get to the 7x of the AVP versus typical competitors.

Once again, I'm not ignoring anything. I am saying that the norm for smartphones when the iPhone launched was $99 to $199 (with contracts, and there were smartphones being offered for less than $99). This included BlackBerrys, Palm Treos, Samsungs, etc. I even posted a sample ad showing that the new upper end BB 8830 was being offered for $199 and not the $299 you had stated. Apple's iPhone prices (comparing lower end to higher end) were about 3 to 5 times more than the norm at launch and ended up being quickly "corrected", and lowered again even more the next year with the launch of the iPhone 3G.



As do I. The difference is that you do not anticipate that the reason for this will be slow sales after the initial rush due to current pricing being extraordinary. We'll either see a new cheaper version or a price cut on the AVP. In the case of the latter I wonder if Apple will give buyers another gift card as an apology for charging them so much money in the first place.

They did it with the iPhone so depending on how quickly and how much prices are lowered with the VP it could happen again. Gift cards offered to early iPhone adopters were half the price reduction amount.
 
Once again, I'm not ignoring anything. I am saying that the norm for smartphones when the iPhone launched was $99 to $199 (with contracts, and there were smartphones being offered for less than $99). This included BlackBerrys, Palm Treos, Samsungs, etc. I even posted a sample ad showing that the new upper end BB 8830 was being offered for $199 and not the $299 you had stated. Apple's iPhone prices (comparing lower end to higher end) were about 3 to 5 times more than the norm at launch and ended up being quickly "corrected", and lowered again even more the next year with the launch of the iPhone 3G.





They did it with the iPhone so depending on how quickly and how much prices are lowered with the VP it could happen again. Gift cards offered to early iPhone adopters were half the price reduction amount.
You’re supplying one ad and somehow claiming it was the norm. I didn’t make up the $299 figure. It was sourced from a contemporaneous CNET article. The reality is that pricing will have varied depending upon how close to launch the product had been purchased and the time of year. And you still haven’t addressed that the AVP is still priced at a higher factor of a whopping 7x than the figures you keep claiming for the iPhone. Last I checked 7x is larger than 5x.

Yes indeed they did it with the iPhone that was priced even closer to the competition than the AVP.
 
First time ever for any new Apple product .. Apple says no military or veteran discounts for the Apple Vision Pro. Called them and they said it's not available and there's no indication that it will be made available .. No student discounts either.
 
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You’re supplying one ad and somehow claiming it was the norm.

That particular ad was just one example but similar $199 BB 8830 ads ran in many parts of the country.



I didn’t make up the $299 figure. It was sourced from a contemporaneous CNET article. The reality is that pricing will have varied depending upon how close to launch the product had been purchased and the time of year.

I didn’t say you made it up, I said it didn’t reflect what was being offered in many parts of the country.

In addition to the BB 8830 offerings, AT&T had also selling a similar version (BB 8800) for $199 for even longer. Plus, other BB models and other smartphones models were being offered for $99 or less.



And you still haven’t addressed that the AVP is still priced at a higher factor of a whopping 7x than the figures you keep claiming for the iPhone. Last I checked 7x is larger than 5x.

As I've said several times, it all depends on what is being compared. There were cheaper smartphones than $99 when the iPhone launched which could've made the $599 iPhone more than eight times more expensive but I was trying to be a bit more realistic with a $99 to $199 "norm" range.

My original point in all of this was that Apple's launch iPhone prices (comparing lower end to higher end) were about 3 to 5 times more than the market norm which is (much) higher than some of the figures that were being thrown around in this thread.
 
If the second generation VP saw the same price drop percentage, it wold have a retail price of around $1,160 next year.
No, because:
What do you mean the price drop "seems higher than it is"? The original iPhone had a 2 year contract requirement from the beginning (when prices were $499/$599) and still had the same when prices were dropped $200 less than three months later. The $199 iPhone 3G also had a 2 year contract requirement.
Those are artificial prices, where you’re paying for a large part of the price through your phone Bill. The actual price for a phone that is 499.- with contract is not 499.-. The fact that this needs to be explained, is exactly why companies do these so-called deals, which usually costs you money in the long run.
 
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Apple could make it socially acceptable, but Apple needs to give people a reason to think they need this device before that can happen. I’m struggling to see what’s going to make people think they need a device 7 times the price of a typical competitor. Your argument is word processing and video editing?

AirPods are actually cheaper than a lot of competing headphones. And unlike you, I don’t imagine VR will be very popular outside of four walls. First, nobody wants to be robbed of their nearly $4k device while riding the bus/subway or walking around town. Second, a 2 hour battery life. You might see these get used on a plane, but that’s largely probably it. Coincidentally this is also the only place you see it being used outside of four walls in Apple’s own ad. If they’re wanting me to imagine using this outside of the home, then they didn’t do a very good job.
I bought my first iPad in 2012. I started to mirror it to an Apple TV shortly after, and god knows how much money I spent initially on pocket routers, 10-m long HDMI cables, workarounds, and busted data caps (yay to iCloud automatically syncing over wifi) making this work in my classroom before Apple would implement peer-to-peer airplay. Today, I am still using it, and that's what I love about my Apple products. It's all the little things, from the writing experience of the Apple Pencil, to the native apps optimised for touch and direct input, to the fluidity of iOS, to its integration with my other devices. It doesn't have to be this multi-orgasmic thrill ride every time I turn it on. It just needs to work, multiple hours a day, every day, without me having to micromanage the process.

As such, I feel that this obsession over that one killer app is way overblown. When the dust has settled, it's the little conveniences that have weaved itself into your life that will justify keeping the Vision Pro. Are those conveniences worth $4k? That's for the individual consumer to decide, and this is where Apple as a consumer-focused company shines, because the buyer is the end user (unlike in the corporate sector where the manager still has to justify the purchase) and the end user doesn't have to be rational (in that the reason only needs to make sense to him or her, not to anyone else).

With regards to use outside, maybe not on public transport at first, but what about Starbucks or a library? If it's okay for people to sit at a table for hours on end studying or working on their laptop, why would it not be acceptable for someone to do likewise with a vision pro? You can still charge it via the power outlet, you get free wifi, and the passthrough is good enough to let me keep track of my surroundings or reach for my coffee and drink it while still wearing the headset.

Second, maybe the reason why we don't see more of cheaper competitors is because they don't really do much outside of games, which makes them a very niche product category that people purchase because they are cheap, not necessarily because they are good. The closest analogy I can make for the Vision Pro is that it's an ipad with a larger field of view, and it's no secret here that I really do love my iPad, and I do a fair amount of stuff on it. For example, when preparing for my lessons, I can have 3 documents open side-by-side on my 11" iPad Pro (notability in split screen mode, and the app itself lets you view 2 documents together). Now imagine being able to blow that up on a giant wall, while also having mind node (a mind mapping app) open on one and, and another note-taking app in the other side (that was kinda how I studied when I was attending a 4-month course last year). My lecturer gave us notes to read, I would make highlights and annotations on my iPad, jot them down as bullet points in notes, and finally map out them in mind node to make sense of what I was reading. This is what happens when I have not "studied" for over 10 years.

I would normally need at least an iPad and a MBA (or iMac) for this, but now, it seems like I can consolidate them all into 1 headset that doesn't need to take up space on a table already cluttered with food and drinks. The caveat is that this sample use case is purely theoretical, and I have no idea how well it will work in real life (there's the supposed fatigue of wearing it for extended periods of time, there's the ease of input, and of course, the battery life).

In all, I feel the technology is fundamentally there. The challenging part is when change, especially if you personally need to change, requires you to rewire your brain and change the way you do things. That’s very real and very hard and why some get uncomfortable or defensive.

This is why I argue that the biggest change that will happen is not with the Vision Pro platform or apps. That change has happened. What needs to happen is the cultural change that will permit the technology change to happen.
 
There were multiple Palm Treo versions available at the time but with discount/rebate and 2 year contract, you could get one through AT&T for around $99 (Treo 680) or $199 (Treo 750) thereby making the iPhone launch prices (also with 2 year AT&T contract) much more than just a 25% to 50% premium.

I was comparing the top of the premium market ($399) vs. the bottom of the Apple offering ($499). This is the appropriate comparison to gauge a sense of the accessibility of the Apple product.

The AVP is not even close to an accessible premium product.

So if I am someone who gets motion sickness from the meta quest but am somehow able to wear the Vision Pro for extended durations without problems, then it doesn't matter how cheap the Quest headset is. I just can't use it.
If no other product is even usable, then the AVP is similar to a first to market product, which is not at all what Apple does.

Great tech, but as a product, it is a weird one.
 
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No, because:

Those are artificial prices, where you’re paying for a large part of the price through your phone Bill. The actual price for a phone that is 499.- with contract is not 499.-. The fact that this needs to be explained, is exactly why companies do these so-called deals, which usually costs you money in the long run.

But the purchase terms were consistent i.e., consumer prices didn't drop because the carrier added a 2 year contract requirement. It wasn’t like the $599 price was with a 2 year contract but the $399 price wasn’t. Both required 2 year contracts and AT&T was covering a portion of the purchase price in both cases. My point was that the purchase prices under the same terms notably dropped.
 
I was comparing the top of the premium market ($399) vs. the bottom of the Apple offering ($499). This is the appropriate comparison to gauge a sense of the accessibility of the Apple product.

Yes, but your $399 figure for the Palm Treo was too high. As I pointed out, with discount/rebate and 2 year contract, the Palm Treos were selling for $99 to $199.



The AVP is not even close to an accessible premium product.

The original Macintosh at $2,495 (around $7,500 in today’s dollars) wasn't an "accessible premium product" either at more than twice the price of the VP. At the time, you could get a cheap computer like the Atari 400 for as little as $50 (around $150 in today’s dollars) or computers like the Commodore 64 for as little as $200 (around $600 in today’s dollars). However, Macintosh prices came down over time and it became more and more accessible and a very successful product for Apple. Similar can happen with the VP.
 
Yes, but your $399 figure for the Palm Treo was too high. As I pointed out, with discount/rebate and 2 year contract, the Palm Treos were selling for $99 to $199.





The original Macintosh at $2,495 (around $7,500 in today’s dollars) wasn't an "accessible premium product" either at more than twice the price of the VP. At the time, you could get a cheap computer like the Atari 400 for as little as $50 (around $150 in today’s dollars) or computers like the Commodore 64 for as little as $200 (around $600 in today’s dollars). However, Macintosh prices came down over time and it became more and more accessible and a very successful product for Apple. Similar can happen with the VP.
“Well, we knew Palm and Cingular were launching the Treo 750 on January 7th (i.e. the unofficial first day of CES), but now we've got the full skinny on the release. Customers will be able to get theirs at Cingular retail stores, or Cingular or Palm's online stores on January 8th for $399 with two year service agreement (and $100 mail-in rebate).”

Nobody is questioning whether or not there were cheaper devices. The question is where was the upper end of the market in relation to Apple, because that’s where they play.

If you really insist on comparing the lower end of the market to Apple products, we can do that though. iPhone was 5x more than a $99 smartphone. AVP is 14x more expensive than a Meta Quest 2 at $250. Not even close. 🤣

 
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