Apple Highlights App Store's Role in Discovery, Privacy, and Safety: 'More Than Just a Storefront'

[CarlJ]

I completely agree that Apple deserves credit for having created this ecosystem. But it's been a while now. How many years can Apple continue to extract a rent from their position? They are currently not inventing any new race anymore, they're certainly not providing all the gear (or do developers NOT have to buy expensive macbooks to use Xcode now?), and are they giving iPhones away for free or are they selling them? so they might have built the racetrack but once they sell it they don't technically own it anymore...

So are you suggesting that, since it's been a while since Apple created the App Store, now control of it / what it provides should be forcibly taken away from them? If you own a house, and you've lived there a long time, at some point should the government be able to decide that you've been the exclusive occupant long enough and now they're going to authorize other people to come live in your house? How does the passage of time erode ownership?

I think Apple probably ought to lower the percentages they're charging. But that's personal opinion, not a command to Apple. They built their system, and it seems to be enormously popular with a lot of people. There are others who are unhappy with the deal that Apple offers. They can go use the widely available alternatives. That would be primarily Android. If there is a huge untapped market that hates both Android and Apple, then that's a golden opportunity for some new company to come along and build their own alternative. But, "some people don't like Apple's deal" is not a reason for having the government take away something Apple built, from Apple.

 

[Abazigal]

I completely agree that Apple deserves credit for having created this ecosystem. But it's been a while now. How many years can Apple continue to extract a rent from their position?

Forever.

 

[involuntarheely]

So are you suggesting that, since it's been a while since Apple created the App Store, now control of it / what it provides should be forcibly taken away from them? If you own a house, and you've lived there a long time, at some point should the government be able to decide that you've been the exclusive occupant long enough and now they're going to authorize other people to come live in your house? How does the passage of time erode ownership?

I think Apple probably ought to lower the percentages they're charging. But that's personal opinion, not a command to Apple. They built their system, and it seems to be enormously popular with a lot of people. There are others who are unhappy with the deal that Apple offers. They can go use the widely available alternatives. That would be primarily Android. If there is a huge untapped market that hates both Android and Apple, then that's a golden opportunity for some new company to come along and build their own alternative. But, "some people don't like Apple's deal" is not a reason for having the government take away something Apple built, from Apple.

I don't know what Apple should or will do but I do think there's a case to complain about their old rules being used in such a different market landscape today.
and look, I'm betting many more people today know about their policies -- possibly more than Apple themselves would like to (let's not forget their clear intention has been to not be transparent about the cut they require from developers, see e.g. the facebook charity situation). that kind of bad press isn't usually good. Apple themselves very obviously don't want to appear greedy. but they do. that's fine if you keep innovating and launching incredible products but let's not pretend 2020 Apple is innovating as much as they used to. a new camera sensor or a new service subscription isn't going to cut it.
so I'm guessing in the end, in some way, willingly or unwillingly, Apple will modify their policies after all.

 

[travelsheep]

They charged developers $1100 for each fraudulent review they removed. They rejected 150K apps - at a cost of $440K/rejection, apparently, for the amount that Apple decides to keep for themselves.

You talking in VND (Vietnam Dong) ? How did you come up with these numbers?

 

[travelsheep]

App store search sucks. You can search for a literal app title, and the app store gives you something else. Apple shows you only what Apple wants you to see. Completely useless.

I love the Apple app store interface on iOS and frequently scroll it like other people scroll facebook. I think it's so beautiful. 😍

That having said I NEVER search for apps with the Apple app store. I fully agree with you that results suck. Big time. Plus, most apps look like Adobe-Flash-to-App quickly written by Zhang Enterprises. Not complaining, just saying that I value people who put a lot of thought and work into apps to make them beautiful, and where I can see that the app itself means something to the creator (not just for the money, but on a deeper level).

 

[Contact_Feanor]

Yes, its much more than a storefront: Its the only storefront. Its a monopoly, and for monopolies to be permitted to exist in the free world there needs to be a very strong social case for it (e.g. train lines that just wouldn't be built where the payback period is too long for the private sector, or high speed internet infrastructure installation in a sparsely populated area). Apple is to some extent simply a victim of its own success but nonetheless such massive power encourages abuses of power, that's why we break up monopolies. Apple's marketing blitz is just propaganda but until legislators around the global realise that our world no longer respects national borders, global tech can continue to skirt around the edge. The sad thing is when a company such as apple tries to pull the moral high ground, that's really uncomfortable. Let apple keep its store front but if it's as superior as they say then they shouldn't have any problem whatsoever in allowing other store fronts to compete or for app developers to deal directly with their clients.

Luckily, the App Store isn't a monopoly in the free world but a feature on a closed system.

 

[I7guy]

Apple really likes to boast that they paid out X amount while ignoring that they kept 43% of that amount. They paid out $155B? That means they pocketed $66B. What service did Apple do warranting them to collect $66B?..

Apple invented the platform and built a successful business model on top of that platform. They attracted many developers who apparently made a total of $155B, including epic who made $$$$. Apple deserves every cent of the $66B, because without apple’s ingenuity developers would have made $0. Additionally it’s apples platform and they entitled to collect market rates.

I’ll go with your basic simplistic math and ignore that not every transaction is 30% so the $66B is spitballing.

 

[Justanotherfanboy]

Repeat after me: the Google Store does NOT constitute an option, that is an entirely different OS.

Repeat after me: an entirely different OS definitely constitutes another option.

Your statement is like saying Tesla has a monopoly because you can’t buy parts for them at NAPA & Autozone.
And then adding to that bizarre notion by saying something as silly as... repeat after me: Chevy, Honda, BMW, et al do NOT constitute another option, those are made by different companies.

I pray to the heavens that you people don’t get your way.
Lol, I can just imagine now a Facebook ran iOS store that doesn’t have to build privacy into any of their apps & games, because they aren’t reviewed by Apple. Sounds really, really, really bad! Kinda hilarious that your ilk pretend like you’re trying to “stick up for the little guy” by wanting to allow huge companies to skirt the protections Apple has provided & commoditize users more.

 

[Abazigal]

Apple really likes to boast that they paid out X amount while ignoring that they kept 43% of that amount. They paid out $155B? That means they pocketed $66B. What service did Apple do warranting them to collect $66B? They removed 60M user reviews believed to be spam. They charged developers $1100 for each fraudulent review they removed. They rejected 150K apps - at a cost of $440K/rejection, apparently, for the amount that Apple decides to keep for themselves.

Why hasn't MacRumors ran an article on the Coalition for App Fairness, yet? Here's that page:

Home - Coalition for App Fairness

App developers deserve a level playing field The Coalition for App Fairness is an independent nonprofit organization founded by industry-leading companies to advocate for freedom of choice and fair competition across the app ecosystem. Contact Us our vision Lear

appfairness.org

I feel that developers by and large underestimate just how much of their revenue come from Apple’s in-app payments being so easy and trusted.

Yes, they put in a lot of time and effort creating great apps for consumers, but setting aside household brands like Netflix or Spotify, I don’t think they would have as much business if consumers had to resort to the old way of navigating to an external website and keying in their credit card details.

Apple has made this possible thanks to their having aggregated the best customers under one platform (thanks to the iphone) and having their credit card details on hand (thanks to iTunes) while making it extremely secure and easy to purchase apps, as well as delete them or cancel subscriptions as desired (thanks to the effort that goes into maintaining and curating the App Store, and features like Touch ID), which in turn leads to users being more amenable to purchasing and downloading new apps. Because the whole process is just so frictionless.

So at the end of the day, I dare say that 70% of the larger pie that Apple enables because of the App Store is still more than 100% of whatever slice they would have carved out based on their own merit. This is the value that Apple brings to the table, and they are absolutely justified in demanding a cut for their role in allowing app developers to earn more than they otherwise would have on their own.

 

[involuntarheely]

I feel that developers by and large underestimate just how much of their revenue come from Apple’s in-app payments being so easy and trusted.

Yes, they put in a lot of time and effort creating great apps for consumers, but setting aside household brands like Netflix or Spotify, I don’t think they would have as much business if consumers had to resort to the old way of navigating to an external website and keying in their credit card details.

Apple has made this possible thanks to their having aggregated the best customers under one platform (thanks to the iphone) and having their credit card details on hand (thanks to iTunes) while making it extremely secure and easy to purchase apps, as well as delete them or cancel subscriptions as desired (thanks to the effort that goes into maintaining and curating the App Store, and features like Touch ID), which in turn leads to users being more amenable to purchasing and downloading new apps. Because the whole process is just so frictionless.

So at the end of the day, I dare say that 70% of the larger pie that Apple enables because of the App Store is still more than 100% of whatever slice they would have carved out based on their own merit. This is the value that Apple brings to the table, and they are absolutely justified in demanding a cut for their role in allowing app developers to earn more than they otherwise would have on their own.

you could put PayPal or whatever other system to actually perform the payment and it would have absolutely zero impact on consumer confidence that the transaction is secure and safe.

 

[Abazigal]

you could put PayPal or whatever other system to actually perform the payment and it would have absolutely zero impact on consumer confidence that the transaction is secure and safe.

I knew I forgot one point - thanks for bringing it up.

The App Store costs money to run and maintain, though the majority of apps distributed are free and bring Apple no income, beyond the annual $100 developer fee which only helps offset costs so much.

The 30% cut from paid apps goes towards covering these costs, which in turn incentivises Apple to continue investing in this platform. It’s like a tax in a sense - those who can pay more, do pay more, to help maintain the infrastructure that benefits everyone.

Paying via third party methods would not net Apple any revenue, essentially turning the App Store into a loss-making endeavour. I suppose one could argue that with the iphone being as profitable as it is, Apple could and should use iphone profits to subsidise the App Store, but I don’t see that as being sustainable. If Apple were to raise the annual developer fee, you are just going to penalise the indie developers who release free apps (and who form the bulk of developers for the iOS platform).

In addition, I don’t think the App Store is anywhere near as profitable as people make it out to be. AboveAvalon estimates that it takes a 20% cut to break even (especially as more subscription-based services are trying to get users to sign up directly on their websites), maybe 25% to be safe. Definitely not 10% or even 5%, because Apple clearly does a lot more than being a simple payment processor.

As with so many things that Apple does, I find that they often tend to result in the greatest amount of good for the greatest number of users. It’s not a perfect system, but I feel the alternatives that companies like Epic are proposing will end up making the user experience worse for consumers. Apple’s the one keeping them honest, and they have my support in this regard.

 

[doobydoooby]

That’s like saying now the bad guys can’t get in. Too bad. We should open it for them just for openness sake.
Who’s gonna responsible for this *alternative* App Store? Who’s gonna responsible when it brought malware to my mother’s phone who’s not techies enough to know the difference between these stores, and steal her money? Who’s gonna responsible when those apps brick her phone? Apple? Why should they?
Closed system has its place. My condo is closed and I bought it because I like that. I like that it won’t allow outsiders coming in easily. If I like the opposite I wouldn’t buy it. If I like the opposite I wouldn’t buy iPhone. That’s choices.
Mobile phone now is not just a mobile phone anymore. It is your body, your bank, your car, your house. I’d like a closed mobile phone please. You don’t like it, there other options. I heard it’s even more innovative. 🤷
Consumers now have it so good but they’re just too dumb to know it.

Sure, a closed system can have its place, but this closed system has gone too far in my personal opinion. Imagine having shopped at walmart twelve years ago and now finding that you can only put the things in your fridge that walmart approve. Or imagine being one of these incredibly successful app developers who still have no direct relationship with their buyers because the middle man won't let them. If we are in a world of many providers and many alternatives that would be fine, but we are essentially talking about two global systems, android and ios, which between them carve up the world and wield incredible power. The world has been caught by the rise of these global entities, legislation finds it hard to deal with when national boundaries are no longer relevant, but the simple truth is that a monopoly (or duopoly) is never going to regulate itself except for its own benefit and the world stifles and pays more as a result. We are trapped now, we cant really get out of ios because we've all spent so much on apps and infrastructure over the years so we are a captive audience. And this captive audience has resulted in a company bigger than the GDP of some countries, so it is quite literally a global powerhouse making decisions to exclude its competitors. If this isn't sorted out equitably, i have the feeling there will be a backlash of greater proportions than the grumblings we see from developers at the moment.

 

[matrix07]

Or imagine being one of these incredibly successful app developers who still have no direct relationship with their buyers because the middle man won't let them.

This simply not true, as most of your posts (which is basically BIG companies = bad which is too simple). I have direct relationships with many developers of apps I bought through their websites and their Twitter accounts. I just prefer to pay through Apple.

and the world stifles

You couldn‘t possibly believe that, could you? Nothing moved as fast in this world as tech world. Looks how far we have come in the last 10 years. 🙄

I don’t think the government knows what’s best for me. Hecks people who works for governments most likely have less IQ than people who’s working at these big tech companies. Leave the decision to me. If I don’t like it I will vote with my wallet. Shove regulations up the government ass.
Apple is not Microsoft. They don’t have 90% market share. Wait until then, just like when Justice department moved on Microsoft 20 years ago. If the government concerns about monopoly, and not playing politic, there’s YouTube. That‘s the one the government should deal with NOW.

 

[I7guy]

...We are trapped now, we cant really get out of ios because we've all spent so much on apps and infrastructure over the years so we are a captive audience....

I can only speak for myself. I am not trapped. I use ios and Apple products by choice. Well that's not really true, I am trapped by Windows. Mac is not 100% replacement as neither are the linux and Unix variants.

... And this captive audience has resulted in a company bigger than the GDP of some countries, so it is quite literally a global powerhouse making decisions to exclude its competitors.

What you describe as trapped, I describe as people making choices in their own tech. You may be "trapped", but you can't assume others are either. And many households I know have a multi-platform infrastructure in their house...that means a mix of android, apple and Microsoft.

If this isn't sorted out equitably, i have the feeling there will be a backlash of greater proportions than the grumblings we see from developers at the moment.

It wont be sorted out equitably. The developers who are grumbling want access to the infrastructure and Apples' devices and customers, bypassing Apple in the process. In other words, they're greedy, starting with Epic who wants no more than to cut Apple out of the loop. After this I doubt Apple will kow-tow to the ilk that agreed to be part of the consortium lobbying against Apple. And I wouldn't blame Apple to treat these devs "as they treat every other dev."

But good luck to everybody, they have slightly less than a year to sort this all out with their lawyers before the trial starts.

 

[amartinez1660]

(...)

I do NOT intend to install software outside of the Apple Store, but I do consider their policies and the fact that they are the only channel to do so monopolistic behavior.

Repeat after me: the Google Store does NOT constitute an option, that is an entirely different OS.

I think repeating after you would be misleading. That’s like saying OS X or Linux or FreeBSD or Windows each of their own are not an option for the user to run a PC because they are different OSs? So the Mac AppStore or Windows stores are not really an option and a monopoly each?
Most apps exists for both stores too, the user picks the OS and phone.

I could make a similar monopoly analogy between Costco and Loblaws stores, since they are “different”, hence they don’t constitute an option.

Maybe if you can clarify what you mean as you might be getting onto something, the rest of the post has solid points, i.e China, although apple can’t really overstep countries laws and rules hence why it’s looking towards Taiwan, India and even US soil in part... curious question, what would you rather them do instead in this case or were you Apple what would you do?

 

[amartinez1660]

It’s not a monopoly because the iPhone is not the only smartphone in town. You can purchase other devices with similar functionality. Developers knew from the start they would have to pay 30%, this is not something new Apple is enforcing. If developers didn’t like it, they should have not started developing for ios, contributing to its success. if developers ignored the App Store 10 years ago, it would be long forgotten.

I really don’t get why so many dislikes, you have said a solid point: Retail stores and carriers play ball in selling iPhones. Developers played ball in both developing and supplying with the aforementioned industry wide standard rules and users played ball in buying the device, downloading and using the AppStore.

All of this was acknowledged and hand-shaken over a decade ago, and it was fine. If it was so bad, crappy and horrible, why the heck put money on it? why today it’s suddenly an issue AND ONLY with Apple?

addendum vent: I’m tired of non devs poisoning the well, the opinion is welcomed but being deaf to rebuttals are definitely not, so please listen and stop beating the same horse.

I’m happy to pay $100 a year to have my dev account and try stuff as a hobbyist, playing with it in the hopes of one day making something useful. It’s good that I don’t have to pay $100K+ a year for industry grade devkits and certified licenses, plus a similar amount when release and distribution happens. I’m ok with getting free tries on a fully developed ecosystem for a 30% fee rate.

This is what people agreed to 12 years ago and it was a great thing, it changed the landscape then. And I’m happy it did.

 

[GeoStructural]

I think repeating after you would be misleading. That’s like saying OS X or Linux or FreeBSD or Windows each of their own are not an option for the user to run a PC because they are different OSs? So the Mac AppStore or Windows stores are not really an option and a monopoly each?
Most apps exists for both stores too, the user picks the OS and phone.

I could make a similar monopoly analogy between Costco and Loblaws stores, since they are “different”, hence they don’t constitute an option.

Maybe if you can clarify what you mean as you might be getting onto something, the rest of the post has solid points, i.e China, although apple can’t really overstep countries laws and rules hence why it’s looking towards Taiwan, India and even US soil in part... curious question, what would you rather them do instead in this case or were you Apple what would you do?

In both MacOS and Windows you can install apps from sources other than their official store. That is what I meant.

On the other topic, Apple is very political and often challenges rulings in Europe and the US, but with China they remain tightlipped about everything going on there.