Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
They aren't worth wasting your time watching. There are no real candidates there, and it's all scripted and controlled anyway. What a joke.
[doublepost=1474916959][/doublepost]
As much as I love your rhetoric, Gary Johnson just hasn't garnered enough popularity nationwide to appeal to the masses. I wish that wasn't the case but it is wishful thinking at this point. Better for us to realize our collective errors and focus on the next election.

Actually, go check out Congressional Dish podcast... the episode on Electoral College. If Johnson won even a couple of tiny state, it would throw the election to a decision in Congress. That would create an interesting situation, for sure.

BTW, we should probably focus more on Congress, and be sure to check out that podcast anyway, as it's packed with info on what Congress is up to (the good, but mostly the bad and ugly).
 
That's why it's so disappointing to hear he wasn't allowed in the first debate. That's the platform where he would have garnered a large popularity (or at least more than he currently has). I think a lot of people agree with most of his views and plans for the country, they just don't know that they do (I didn't until 4 months ago). So they decide to vote the lesser of two evils or don't vote at all.

The debate commission is a hinderance to real democracy :(. But maybe he can get in the second debate. Either way, he's got my vote this election and this was actually the first time I donated to a political campaign.
Just goes to show the power of the two big party platforms. If you don't conform to either, success is highly unlikely. What we need to do, now that we have everyone's attention, is to break up the party platform model.

As far as Johnson and Stein, the argument goes both ways whether it's wise to vote for them when it's highly improbable they will garner any significant votes. pragmatism vs idealism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Deadman64

Hillary continues... "... and if that's not enough to scare you out of presidency bid and to keep the American public from voting for you anyone else, let me tell you about these people I've done business with: they are mean and ruthless **********ers. They paid the Clinton foundation lots of money, and now it's time to deliver. That's why when I get in office, I've got a few political favors I've got to take care of.

Pay for play at the State Department? You ain't seen nothing yet, Donnie Boy!"

In all seriousness, anything can happen in this election between now and November. But at this point, I'm against HRC, and not because of her policies, but because she doesn't seem to give a hell about government transparency laws and has otherwise generally questionable ethics (as seen in the WikiLeaks docs). Whatever the party, whatever the candidate, this behavior has got to go and cannot be tolerated one iota in our government. Anything else and the place starts crumbling.

From where I stand, we can't allow people who are public servants (no matter how powerful) to drag us back to to the era(s) before the enactment of the sunshine laws. How truly awful it is that we have to rely on an organization like WikiLeaks to find out how our government is operating behind the scenes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: iapplelove
As far as Johnson and Stein, the argument goes both ways whether it's wise to vote for them when it's highly improbable they will garner any significant votes. pragmatism vs idealism.

Listen to that Congressional Dish episode I noted above. Stein probably doesn't have a chance. Johnson actually does... but it would take people understanding and waking up a bit. That's the unlikely part.

But, yes, the parties must be broken. Either vote for Johnson if you agree with that strategy, or don't vote. Both of those would send the strongest signals. (i.e.: if Johnson could win a couple of states... any states... it throws the whole thing into chaos, or if voter-turnout is at an all-time-low, that also says something.) Just don't vote for either horrible choice, as that's exactly what the parties want. If either wins, they win.

But at this point, I'm against HRC, and not because of her policies, but because she doesn't seem to give a hell about government transparency laws and has otherwise generally questionable ethics (as seen in the WikiLeaks docs). Whatever the party, whatever the candidate, this behavior has got to go and cannot be tolerated one iota in our government. Anything else and the place starts crumbling.

You need to listen to Congressional Dish podcast. You won't get past an episode or two without being completely furious. There's a lot more of them in there like HRC. That seems the norm actually, and in terms of the really, really bad things going on, both parties are in cahoots. And, they are getting away with most of it totally under the radar. It's right out in the open... it's just that very few are paying attention.

Yea, HRC is about the worst of the worst in terms of a politician (warmonger, liar, corrupt as the day is long), and if you're conservative at all, she's liberal on all the hot-button liberal/conservative things as well. Just don't underestimate how many will vote for her because she's liberal and a woman. I've run into so many, otherwise clear thinking people, who won't even look into who she really is... they just want the first female president.
 
Everyone keeps bashing Clinton for various vague ethical mistakes.

Meanwhile, Trump is the only presidential candidate in the last 40 years who has refused to release his tax returns. What is he hiding? Why does he feel free to get up on stage and openly, blatantly lie? So much of what he says is easily falsifiable for anyone with access to Google. And why would anyone feel safe with such a crooked, unhinged, racist and bankrupt-prone businessman running this country?

Hillary may not be perfect, but compared to Trump she is.
 
But, yes, the parties must be broken. Either vote for Johnson if you agree with that strategy, or don't vote. Both of those would send the strongest signals. (i.e.: if Johnson could win a couple of states... any states... it throws the whole thing into chaos, or if voter-turnout is at an all-time-low, that also says something.) Just don't vote for either horrible choice, as that's exactly what the parties want. If either wins, they win.
This is terrible advice. In a democratic nation, the one duty all citizens have towards their government is to vote for their constituents. Go ask the people of Syria how much they'd like the opportunity to vote for the future of their country. Not voting doesn't send a 'signal', it paves the way for chaos, fraud, and ultimately a breakdown of the country, which means an end to democracy. We can argue on about our plutocratic tendencies but at the end of the day, change comes at the ballot box. It's fine for you to make your case for a candidate and repeated spamming about that podcast, but the reponsible thing is to tell people to go vote, regardless of who you vote for. Voting for someone you hate is better than not voting at all because at the end of the day, you don't live under a dictator who controls your way of life. and our system is one of checks and balances which means the president doesn't have absolute power, rather is only 1/3 of the equation, which is the reason for the recent breakdown. Disfunction is better than no voice. Seriously, terrible advice.

Go vote.
 
Everyone keeps bashing Clinton for various vague ethical mistakes.
...
Hillary may not be perfect, but compared to Trump she is.

Lybia... Syria (maybe you heard about the millions of refugees, and how many deaths?)... corporate corruption... pay to play favors... email and erasing evidence... Clinton Foundation and Haiti (just one of many)...

Vague ethical mistakes? And, you're comparing that to questioning his tax returns???

In a democratic nation, the one duty all citizens have towards their government is to vote for their constituents. ... but the reponsible thing is to tell people to go vote, regardless of who you vote for.

No, our duty is to be informed citizens, and THEN to vote accordingly. The 'Rock the Vote' baloney is how we get into the mess we're in in the first place. THAT is seriously bad advice.
 
Dumb conspiracy theory. She didn't do anything wrong.
Syria (maybe you heard about the millions of refugees, and how many deaths?)...
Uh, why are you blaming Clinton for Syria? Bush is ultimately responsible.
corporate corruption... pay to play favors...
Oh yay, more vague and unsubstantiated accusations. Pile it on.
email and erasing evidence...
Ohhhh myyyyy god. Just stop. She was investigated TWICE by a REPUBLICAN who wanted so badly to charge her...but couldn't. Because there was nothing to charge her with.
Clinton Foundation and Haiti
Unlike pig-elect Trump, the Clintons can actually be proud of their charitable foundation.

And, you're comparing that to questioning his tax returns???
You mean losing $1 billion for his shareholders in a single year, then avoiding paying a cent of tax for the next 20 years even though he's a billionaire? Yeah, in a sane world, that would disqualify you from becoming the spokesperson of "middle America". But as we discovered a week ago, this isn't a sane world.
 
No, our duty is to be informed citizens, and THEN to vote accordingly. The 'Rock the Vote' baloney is how we get into the mess we're in in the first place. THAT is seriously bad advice.
Well yes, naturally you should be an informed citizen before you go vote. The problem is people have a tendency to disregard the process but quick to uprising when they don't get what they want. Government is not here to give you handouts. It's here to protect your rights and freedoms.
 
Dumb conspiracy theory. She didn't do anything wrong. Uh, why are you blaming Clinton for Syria? Bush is ultimately responsible. Oh yay, more vague and unsubstantiated accusations. Pile it on. Ohhhh myyyyy god. Just stop. She was investigated TWICE by a REPUBLICAN who wanted so badly to charge her...but couldn't. Because there was nothing to charge her with. Unlike pig-elect Trump, the Clintons can actually be proud of their charitable foundation.

You mean losing $1 billion for his shareholders in a single year, then avoiding paying a cent of tax for the next 20 years even though he's a billionaire? Yeah, in a sane world, that would disqualify you from becoming the spokesperson of "middle America". But as we discovered a week ago, this isn't a sane world.

Start here: http://www.congressionaldish.com/cd131-bombing-libya/
Many of the other episodes will be helpful as well. It's only dumb conspiracy theories if you watch the MSM. If you actually look into it, no conspiracy theory necessary.

Yes, it was under Bush's watch that we gave over the war effort to the Executive branch, but Obama and Hillary have run with that, and actually escalated it. Peas in a pod, my friend. The more quickly you realize you're being duped into this us vs them mentality, the more quickly correction can come.

Are you saying the FBI's investigation was just lies? Or, that she didn't hire a firm to wipe the data? (And I'm the conspiracy theorist?)

Where did the billions for Haiti go? (Like Bush said... we don't need blankets and water, just send us cash... people did, it didn't make it to Haiti. And, that's the tip of the iceberg. http://charlesortel.com)

re: Trump. - I don't like Trump. I didn't vote for him. I'm just saying Hillary is worse. BTW, what you described is the way tax write off's on business loss works. If we don't want billionaires doing that, we need to change the tax laws.

Well yes, naturally you should be an informed citizen before you go vote. The problem is people have a tendency to disregard the process but quick to uprising when they don't get what they want. Government is not here to give you handouts. It's here to protect your rights and freedoms.

Agreed. I'm just saying all this, put stars on TV saying get out and vote is silly. Get informed, then vote. Otherwise, it's better if they stay home! (And, I suppose people getting the handouts will vote for the party more likely to give more handouts, if they are uninformed. So, they'd rather you not be informed and just vote.)
 
Start here: http://www.congressionaldish.com/cd131-bombing-libya/
Many of the other episodes will be helpful as well. It's only dumb conspiracy theories if you watch the MSM.
I think the growing rejection "MSM" and journalistic standards of integrity is dangerous. We are entering a post-fact world, where people will believe whatever they want and reinforce their beliefs through crackpot news outlets like Breitbart.

Yes, it was under Bush's watch that we gave over the war effort to the Executive branch, but Obama and Hillary have run with that, and actually escalated it.
Our current military involvement in the Middle East is due to Bush. Obama has had a hard time withdrawing, true, but I really don't understand how you can claim he has "escalated" things.

Are you saying the FBI's investigation was just lies?
Uh, no, I'm saying the FBI investigation resulted in no charges. And I believe in the idea of innocence until proven guilty. No charges = nothing to see here, folks.

Or, that she didn't hire a firm to wipe the data?
People are allowed to wipe data from their hard drives. If it doesn't result in charges, then you are innocent. Comey, the guy leading the investigation, is a Republican -- he wanted nothing more than to charge her. If he couldn't charge her, it's because there was nothing to charge her with. Continuing to call her a criminal despite the lack of charges (and threatening to "throw her in prison") is a FASCIST TACTIC. How can you not see that?

Where did the billions for Haiti go?
Again, this is where journalistic integrity comes into play. Have you bothered reading fact-checking sites? Here's one: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-priebus-false-claim-80-clinton-foundation-c/

But then again, you'll probably dismiss that as "MSM"...

re: Trump. - I don't like Trump. I didn't vote for him. I'm just saying Hillary is worse.
I can't understand that perspective, to be honest. No matter how hard I try, I can't figure out how people believe that.

If we don't want billionaires doing that, we need to change the tax laws.
Who is more likely to change the tax laws?? A billionaire who has avoided paying income tax for decades through loopholes, or a woman who actually pays her taxes properly? I'm a poor graduate student and I pay more taxes than our new president. Holy **** the world has gone insane.
 
I think the growing rejection "MSM" and journalistic standards of integrity is dangerous. We are entering a post-fact world, where people will believe whatever they want and reinforce their beliefs through crackpot news outlets like Breitbart.

The post-fact world is coming due to the MSM no longer being journalistic, along with an overload of information, and the inability of critical thinking skills (due to the education system, cultural trends, and information overload). This is so easy to see if you simply compare the source material, to the report on any MSM outlet.

While some 'crackpot' news outlets are certainly biased as well (and sometimes get overly conspiratorial), they often do a good job of highlighting the above. Again, you have to have critical thinking skills in place... WITH EITHER!!!

And, I'd not say Congressional Dish is a crackpot news outlet. The host purposely is not supported by ads or NPR 'sponsorships' (i.e.: ads in disguise). She doesn't do any native advertising. She reports on what is going on in Congress... a lot of stuff the MSM doesn't report on, or distorts when they do. And, btw, I'm a conservative, while she's a liberal progressive.... yet I'm promoting what she's doing, as I see it as one of a few only hopes to get back to journalism.

Our current military involvement in the Middle East is due to Bush. Obama has had a hard time withdrawing, true, but I really don't understand how you can claim he has "escalated" things.

What has happened in the M.E., post 9/11, is in the hands of the Executive branch, as they've bypassed Congress (though it isn't like Congress would stop it either). Obama/Hillary have been quite involved in overthrowing Gaddafi... maybe you don't recall, "we came, we saw, he died!"? And, Obama seems quite intent on overthrowing Assad, as well. You know those millions of refugees?

We've got a plan to overthrow at least 7 foreign governments. Just Google 'Wes Clark 7' and see what pops up.

The problem is, you're still in this mode of Republicans are warmongers, and Democrats want peace, but can't make it happen. That's baloney. Obama hasn't stopped anything, and when there have been votes on related stuff in Congress (weapons, military operations, etc.... it's nearly unanimous bi-partisan votes). If you weren't glued to the MSM, you might know some of this.

Uh, no, I'm saying the FBI investigation resulted in no charges. And I believe in the idea of innocence until proven guilty. No charges = nothing to see here, folks.

It's my understanding that the FBI doesn't prosecute/charge. They gave the report (which was quite clear), and it's the DoJ that would have to charge. I might be wrong on that, but again, his report was quite clear. She was reckless with classified information. If you look at the law, intent has nothing to do with it.

re: innocence and charged - So, then you'd also agree that the Wall Street bankers are innocent, as they didn't get charged?

When someone is guilty, but is above the law, that doesn't = innocent.

People are allowed to wipe data from their hard drives. If it doesn't result in charges, then you are innocent. Comey, the guy leading the investigation, is a Republican -- he wanted nothing more than to charge her. If he couldn't charge her, it's because there was nothing to charge her with. Continuing to call her a criminal despite the lack of charges (and threatening to "throw her in prison") is a FASCIST TACTIC. How can you not see that?

So, if I have a bunch of criminal evidence on my computer, but can wipe it in time, then I'm innocent? That's a strange kind of morality you've got going there. So, basically, if you can get away with it, then it's not a crime?

He may have wanted to charge her, but that he didn't has nothing to do with 'nothing to see here.' Unless he lied about the findings, there was plenty to see here.

Again, this is where journalistic integrity comes into play. Have you bothered reading fact-checking sites? Here's one: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-priebus-false-claim-80-clinton-foundation-c/

What does that have to do with Haiti? Why don't you compare what's been done there with how much was donated? Why don't you pay attention what the leaders of Haiti are saying about it?

And, do you know that the Clintons gave around $2M to the organization that gave them a good charity rating?

I can't understand that perspective, to be honest. No matter how hard I try, I can't figure out how people believe that.

Because Trump might be a very immoral person, with a highly flawed history and lack of 'presidential' speech and such. But, Hillary has a proven track record of being involved in all kinds of horrible stuff, and backing all kinds of horrible political and social positions. She's proven to be more of the same, squared.

Trump might be bad, too. I guess we'll see. But, at least there's a chance of something different. He has some positive policies for conservatives. And, if those with liberal leanings want to complain, they should be complaining about how the DNC stole the primaries away from Bernie. While I can't stand some of his policies, I believe him to be an honest change agent (albeit on the left). And, my guess is that he would have beat Trump.

Again, the MSM didn't show you the massive Bernie crowds, and the tiny partially filled Hillary 'crowds'. Bernie was robbed.

Who is more likely to change the tax laws?? A billionaire who has avoided paying income tax for decades through loopholes, or a woman who actually pays her taxes properly? I'm a poor graduate student and I pay more taxes than our new president. Holy **** the world has gone insane.

Over half of Americans pay no federal income taxes. And, as I said, the tax codes are setup such that the uber-rich can find a lot of loopholes. But, a lot of the wealthy have also called for such loopholes to be closed. When you do your taxes, don't you take advantage of various deductions and such?

And, I could really care less if Hillary paid her taxes or not... I'm more concerned about her support of Wall Street and the lobbyists who keep the corporate greed policies in place. Trump might support them too, I suppose. The only candidate who might not have was Bernie.
 
The post-fact world is coming due to the MSM no longer being journalistic, along with an overload of information, and the inability of critical thinking skills (due to the education system, cultural trends, and information overload).
I agree with you about critical thinking skills, but I see no signs of bias in the NYT, for example. Trump supporters have been accusing them of bias for months simply because they've unflinchingly reported the facts.

I'm not a fan of Hillary's hawkish policies. Then again, Trump has threatened to destabilize the world. His remarks about nuclear weapons, Japan building up their military, withdrawing support from South Korea, etc., all sound like very dangerous policies that an inexperienced reality-TV star might propose.

When someone is guilty, but is above the law, that doesn't = innocent.
If she were above the law, she wouldn't have been investigated by Comey -- twice. In fact, his "November surprise" (another pointless investigation) was a transparent attempt to sway the election. Hillary wasn't above the law, she was investigated and not charged.

So, if I have a bunch of criminal evidence on my computer, but can wipe it in time, then I'm innocent?
You're dealing in hypotheticals, whereas I'm talking about the law. If there was nothing to charge you with, you'd be innocent in the eyes of the law. Everything else is pure speculation, and I'm not about to convict Hillary (or anyone else) based on speculation. We have a legal system for a reason. I trust Comey would have recommended charges if he thought there was any chance of them being successful.

What does that have to do with Haiti?
There are so many smears about the Clinton Foundation it's hard to know where to start.
http://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/pences-unsupported-haiti-claim/
The other funny thing is that Trump's own "charitable" foundation is so much more embarrassing:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-scam-charity/

if those with liberal leanings want to complain, they should be complaining about how the DNC stole the primaries away from Bernie.
Absolutely agreed. I don't love Hillary Clinton, and would have preferred Bernie. I think he would've won. But I also think Hillary has been treated unfairly.

When you do your taxes, don't you take advantage of various deductions and such?
Of course, but the system shouldn't allow a billionaire to pay nothing, and I don't think Trump is eager to fix that. He's already shown himself to be an immoral businessman, so why would he be a moral politician?
 
I agree with you about critical thinking skills, but I see no signs of bias in the NYT, for example. Trump supporters have been accusing them of bias for months simply because they've unflinchingly reported the facts.

I don't follow the NYT enough to really have an opinion there. I'm mostly talking about the major TV news networks. But, be careful, many of the 'fact check' sites have been quite biased as well.

I'm not a fan of Hillary's hawkish policies. Then again, Trump has threatened to destabilize the world. His remarks about nuclear weapons, Japan building up their military, withdrawing support from South Korea, etc., all sound like very dangerous policies that an inexperienced reality-TV star might propose.

I guess we'll see, but I agree w/ the examples you've given. However, continuing US policy in the M.E. or taunting Russia further is a sure disaster.

If she were above the law, she wouldn't have been investigated by Comey -- twice. In fact, his "November surprise" (another pointless investigation) was a transparent attempt to sway the election. Hillary wasn't above the law, she was investigated and not charged.

She's been investigated, but not charged. She should have been charged. Others have been for much more minor things. The big thing was when Comey was fairly direct about what she did, but then added that thing about intent. Intent isn't part of the equation, but people bought it, I guess.

You're dealing in hypotheticals, whereas I'm talking about the law. If there was nothing to charge you with, you'd be innocent in the eyes of the law. Everything else is pure speculation, and I'm not about to convict Hillary (or anyone else) based on speculation. We have a legal system for a reason. I trust Comey would have recommended charges if he thought there was any chance of them being successful.

Comey didn't say, we found nothing. He said because they didn't see intent, they weren't going to *recommend* charges. And, certain meetings just prior w/ his boss and Bill might have had some impact on that. Maybe he likes hot-tubs and would prefer not to have two to the head w/ his left hand.

There are so many smears about the Clinton Foundation it's hard to know where to start.

Maybe start by listening to some of the officials from Haiti, or looking at the condition of the people there... after many BILLIONS of dollars were supposed to have been used to help them.
or see here:
http://charlesortel.com

Even if it's on the up and up... it's been insanely poorly run, hasn't been properly audited, and donating millions to the organization that gives you your charitable ratings is more than a bit fishy.

Absolutely agreed. I don't love Hillary Clinton, and would have preferred Bernie. I think he would've won. But I also think Hillary has been treated unfairly.

I'd agree, though in another way. I think that despite incredible corruption, and all the bias the MSM could muster, Hillary still failed to win. Fairly, would be Hillary in prison. Like my dad said... if he'd done something like that when he was in the military, it probably wouldn't have been prison, but a firing squad.

Of course, but the system shouldn't allow a billionaire to pay nothing, and I don't think Trump is eager to fix that. He's already shown himself to be an immoral businessman, so why would he be a moral politician?

Agreed. Though how much Trump did or didn't pay is a small problem compared to the huge issues we're facing. We need to get after Congress to fix that, and I doubt that will happen soon. At least Trump pledged to fix the tax system, Hillary certainly wouldn't.

And, trust me, I have no grand illusions that Trump is going to do much of what he said, or even stick to some of his positions I might actually like. But, I trust him far more than Hillary. I just wish we wouldn't have had either.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.