Apple Home Theater?‏

Discussion in 'Apple TV and Home Theater' started by DegreeZ, Sep 23, 2015.

  1. DegreeZ macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    #1
    I want to build a new home theater system with eventually expanding into full home automation. Since I'll be buying all new stuff (TV, sound system, tablets for remote control, etc.), I'm debating about going with an Apple ecosystem or perhaps something else you guys would recommend.

    Here are my requirements for the home theatre system:

    Audio:
    - I want to be able to stream audio from any device (mobile phones, tablets, desktops/laptops) to a sound system. This content could be from YouTube, Spotify, local storage, etc.
    - I was looking at either Airplay-enabled receivers or investigating in a Sonos Soundbar.

    Video:
    - I want to be able to stream video from any device (mobile phones, tablets, desktops/laptops) to a TV. This content could be from YouTube, Netflix or perhaps a movie that I downloaded.
    - For things like YouTube, I have no problem streaming content. If I was going to watch a movie (whether that be through Netflix or a movie that I downloaded), I would likely want to have a wired connection for this directly to the TV. Perhaps a laptop that is always connected to the TV through HDMI or maybe a SAN-device hard-wired to the TV through a network cable?
    - Also looking at leveraging AirPlay here but concerned that content has to live in iTunes?

    Just wondering if any of you guys have already been down this road yet and if you have any thoughts or suggestions? Would be great to get some feedback. The guys at Canada Computers and Best Buy haven't been any help!
     
  2. fischersd macrumors 68040

    fischersd

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Location:
    Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
    #2
    If you invest heavily into the Apple ecosystem (iTunes), then you may not want to have a lot of local storage (i.e. NAS) for content. I think that, eventually, if Apple is able to broker the necessary agreements with the content owners (movie studios & TV networks), they'll eventually have an all-you-can-eat offering for TV/Movies as well as Music.

    Do you also want to be able to use your TV as a browser?

    See, here's the setup I have:
    - Panasonic 65" V-series plasma TV
    - Pioneer SC-25 7.1 A/V receiver
    - Mac Mini, PS3 and an Apple TV (for a few services) connected to the A/V receiver
    - Synology 2413+ NAS (12 bays)
    (obviously, I went the route to house my own content). One day I hope to eliminate the NAS and be able to have a service subscription that is future-proofed for all content (ie. you don't pay extra for the 4k or 8k content).

    If you do a little research, you can get decent A/V receivers used and save yourself a ton of money.

    That's at the higher end of things (you can also drop a lot of money on speakers).

    Having a mac mini connected to your TV allows you to browse, have additional storage and almost limitless in terms of feature set.

    If you don't want to browse and want to have a NAS, you could put the Plex client on an AppleTV and (if you get a Sinology or other supported OS NAS, install the Plex server on the NAS server).
     
  3. jdag macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    #3
    There are so many options and directions you can move in. My comments here are mainly about audio, but AppleTV of course, crosses over the line to video support as well.

    I have a Sonos system throughout my house, with 4 different zones including a Playbar/Sub/Play1s for 5.1 in my Family Room and various Play1s around the house. I also have a traditional AVR with 5.1 in my basement home theater that supports AirPlay, with speakers wired out to my patio as Zone 2 (so when I want audio out on the patio, I AirPlay to the basement AVR).

    There are pros and cons to each, but I will tell you that unquestionably the Sonos system is the most user-friendly. I am thrilled with Sonos. In fact, it is my favorite tech purchase over the last 5 years...easily. We listen to far more music now than anytime in the past. I work from home, and the Sonos is on anytime I am not on a phone call. As for the Family Room, I replaced an AVR with a 5.1 setup in my family room and have zero regrets.

    The most common complaints you will hear about Sonos are 1) cost and 2) no AirPlay support, 3) control. I would look more deeply into these complaints and see if they will affect you. They do not bother me at all.

    1) Cost is purely subjective, as some people will pay thousands upon thousands for speakers. Further, with Sonos you are not only buying speakers, but an ecosystem (akin to purchasing an iPhone and getting the App Store ecosystem). You can start a Sonos system for as little as $200 for a single Play1 and build from there. The PlayBar runs $700, and you may or may not want to add the Sub and surrounds. You can add additional components anytime if initial cost is a factor. Trust me, Sonos equipment is addictive, and even my generally disinterested-in-tech wife asked me to add more speakers.

    2) As for AirPlay, this is a valid concern. Sonos in-and-of-itself does not support AirPlay, and likely never will. They are competing solutions. However, some Sonos devices, including the Connect, Connect Amp, and Play5 have audio inputs. If you plug a device into that audio input, then the Sonos system will see it and allow playing throughout the system. In effect, you are adding AirPlay to Sonos. So, as an example, you can plug an Airport Express into a Play5, and presto, you have a Sonos system with AirPlay support throughout the house. You can even play to other Sonos zones and not play from the device the Airport Express is plugged into. To replicate this with AirPlay, each and every zone would have to be AirPlay capable, which depending on speakers/receivers, may require an AirPort Express or AppleTV in every zone (see now how Sonos isn't by default more expensive?).

    3) Additionally, some will complain that you must use the Sonos app. This is true, but in my mind not a restriction. All content must be played through the Sonos "controller" app, which is available on many platforms (Mac, PC, iOS, Android). But since Sonos does not (directly) support AirPlay, you cannot (directly) send audio from your computer to the Sonos system (there are workarounds, such as an app called AirSonos, AirPlay, or using a Sonos device with audio in, but I won't get into that here as it gets more complex).

    In summary, Sonos is a completely integrated system, so you can have multiple controllers all controlling the same Sonos system (i.e. - I can start a song form my Mac, and my wife can turn the volume up via her iPhone). And, relative to the ecosystem, there is no way to control an AirPlay-based system with the same level of control as a Sonos system. Some people will argue this point, but they are incorrect. Sonos has capabilities that AirPlay simply does not have.
     
  4. DegreeZ thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    #4
    fischersd - Great comments.

    - To answer your first question, i didn't think of using my TV as a browser but if i bought an ipad, i would find the "airplay - mirroring" option useful. Do I have to be concerned with resolutions? For example, would I get a 1080P output if i airplay'd an iPad to the TV?

    - I just googled your receiver and it's a suggested retail price of $1,800 which is out of my price range which doesn't even include speakers yet.

    - How does your NAS work as I've never worked with one before. Could I buy a NAS device and connect it to an Apple TV then access the content off the NAS from the Apple TV interface? I'm trying to limit the amount of times I have to change the source on the TV and if everything could be managed from the Apple TV source, that would be great.


    jdag - Great comments as well.

    - Sonos sounds great but not sure if I'm fond of being restricted to the Sonos App. Also, Sonos is audio only, correct? As I'm unfamiliar with Airplay, I'm wondering if I Airplay'd a YouTube video (or other video content) to Airplay-enabled speakers/receiver, would it still play the audio? Sometimes the girlfriend just wants to hear the audio off of a YouTUbe or other Video Application.
     
  5. jdag macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    #5
    1) fischersd's Pioneer SC-25 is a heck of a receiver. But you can find excellent and very capable receivers for a few hundred dollars. If you do go the AVR route, I would suggest looking at accessories4less and picking up a refurbished unit. I bought my Denon AVR-X2000 for about $275 or so a while back.

    2a) NAS drives, or network attached storage drives, connect to the network via ethernet, and do not require a computer to be running to access. You cannot connect a NAS or any drive at all to an AppleTV.

    2b) Sonos CAN access songs directly from a NAS.

    2c) AppleTV CANNOT access songs or videos from a NAS directly, there must be a computer running iTunes for AppleTV to play locally stored content. Because of this restriction, many people would suggest just using a DAS, or directly attached storage drive, instead of a NAS since you still need a computer with iTunes running. A DAS is any drive that is connected to a computer, usually via USB.

    2d) The newly announced AppleTV will allow for apps to be installed, so the ability to access content from a NAS without a computer running iTunes may be possible in the future.

    2e) If you go with an AVR, then you connect everything to the AVR, and run a single HDMI cable from the AVR to the TV. The AVR is where you switch inputs. And, I would strongly recommend a Harmony universal remote if you go this route.

    3a) Sonos app...try it...seriously...I doubt you will find it restrictive at all. Sonos has a 45 day trial period, with free shipping in both directions if you are in the US and purchase directly from their web site. You cannot lose. Also, Best Buy and Target sell Sonos equipment, and both offer good return policies. It is a phenomenally easy system to use, with no risk.

    3b) Yes, Sonos is audio only. However, if you do buy the PlayBar, and have an AppleTV hooked to that TV, then you technically have AirPlay capability for both audio and video. That's what I have, and it covers all of the bases. If I want to play YouTube, I can do it in several ways, including playing via the AppleTV, using AirPlay from my iPhone, etc. And, with Sonos, I can even stream the TV audio to other rooms. It is so incredibly flexible.

    PS - What is your budget?
     
  6. breezeblocks macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2014
    #6
    jdag do you find your sonos 5.1 compares to your traditional avr and separates? I have a playbar (which I love) and considering expanding with some play 1s as surrounds.

    Apologies for the hijack here.
     
  7. jdag macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    #7
    It is a step down for sure. I believe it is for a couple of reasons...

    1) I am comparing it to a pretty decent "mid-level" setup with a well-regarded AVR and $1,600 speaker system, so to about a $2,100 system overall. That old system (along with the AVR/5.1 setup I still have in my basement) was a Denon AVR-X2000 with Aperion Audio speakers. If you were comparing it to a lesser system, AVR or speakers, you likely would not have my "complaint".

    2) A notable benefit of an AVR system is that there is more control over each individual speaker. In fact, with the Denon AVR-X2000 and other AVRs, you can calibrate with Audyssey software/microphones. With the Sonos 5.1 setup, you can increase/decrease the relative volume of the surrounds and sub. However, you cannot make 1 of the surrounds relatively louder then the other surround. The issue with this lack of control is that if your primary seating position is not centered, then you will hear more of the surround sound from 1 side or the other. I have this problem in my family room, where my main chair is about 3' from the left surround, but about 9' from my right surround.

    So you need to balance your expectations and desires. I have a full basement theater, 100" screen, projector, the works. So my family room setup with the Sonos 5.1 system is excellent, simple to control, sounds great, allows for the Sonos experience, etc. But like I mentioned at the start, a "step down" from the full experience.

    Ultimately, if you already have the PlayBar, to me adding the Play1s as surrounds is a no-brainer.
     
  8. Snoopy4 macrumors 6502a

    Snoopy4

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    #8

    All I can say is AppleTV (and any other streaming service) looks craptacular on a 100"+ screen. I wouldn't go over 55" personally. Use AppleTV in conjunction with a BD player that has built in Amazon and Vudu and you'll pretty much be covered. When ATV4 comes out there will probably be an app for Amazon and Vudu so the BD won't necessarily be used for streaming long term. I'd also wait for a true UHD BD player.
     
  9. breezeblocks macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2014
    #9
    Thank you for the reply, really appreciate the feedback especially considering you have both sonos and traditional separates. I recently moved into a small 1 bed flat and downsized from projector/AV/5.1 speaker package to the sonos and really loving it. I will look to picking up some surrounds soon.

    In reply to the original posting, Apple TV is great and if you're only using a tv and not projector will look great. You can AirPlay music/videos, use streaming services and not only rip and home share existing blu Rays/DVDs you may have you can even buy all your content in iTunes. This is what I did as I no longer buy blu Rays.
     
  10. jdag macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    #10
    Agreed...AppleTV on the projector is not nearly the quality of a BR player. Of course, the better the projector, the better the picture. I went from a BenQ to an Epson projector, and the picture quality increased 10 fold (not because of the brands, but because the Epson is an overall better device).
     
  11. Snoopy4 macrumors 6502a

    Snoopy4

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2014
    #11
    We went with this bad boy...ATV is still crap. There just isn't enough information in the file and it's totally exposed.

    http://procision.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL029313&pathId=140&page=10
     
  12. rhett7660 macrumors G4

    rhett7660

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Location:
    Sunny, Southern California
    #12
    Are you saying not to have a lot of local storage? If so why? I have all of my content locally on a NAS box with zero issues. Just want to make sure I am reading this correctly.
     
  13. DegreeZ thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    #13
    Hi jdag, thanks again for the great responses. A few follow-up questions...

    2c) Can you connect a DAS to an apple TV (i.e. a USB)?

    2e) I like the idea of the Harmony remote as I don't want a bunch of controllers all over the place. My plan is to actually buy an iPad and use that for the TV remote. Would that work as well?

    3)b) The only problem with this scenario is that if we wanted to stream audio from a video (let's say, YouTube) the TV would have to be on, correct? We couldn't stream it to the play bar. When the wife and I wake up (upstairs), she normally goes to YouTube to find a playlist she likes. Since our townhouse is relatively small (1100 sqft - 3 floors), it would be nice if she could stream the audio of the video to the playbar, but that would require us to go downstairs and turn on the TV, correct?

    Also, your reply mentions both the Denon AVR-X2000 and Playbar. We wouldn't get both, correct? One or the other? Still debating between what makes more sense, the Sonos Playbar route or an AirPlay Receiver.


    As a question for the rest, if i'm looking to get a 55"-60" TV, do i have to be considered with the resolution quality with the apple tv? Snoopy's post has me worried a bit. Also, if I purchase an iPad with the 55"-60" TV/Apple TV, will that mirror/stream in 1080P quality and fit the full screen of the TV?
     
  14. jdag macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    #14
    1st, note that my answers below are for the current AppleTV 3rd version, not the new one due out in the next month. The new AppleTV, with new apps to be available, might alter some of my replies.

    2c) Can you connect a DAS to an apple TV (i.e. a USB)?
    No. There are multiple ways to view content on AppleTV, but attaching a hard drive via USB is not 1 of them. You can: 1) stream via the built-in apps like YouTube, Netflix, iTunes Store, etc. 2) AirPlay from your device to the AppleTV. 3) Stream from a computer running iTunes.​

    2e) I like the idea of the Harmony remote as I don't want a bunch of controllers all over the place. My plan is to actually buy an iPad and use that for the TV remote. Would that work as well?
    Harmony offers "traditional" remotes that will work with nearly any device that accepts IR signals (TVs, AppleTV, bluray players, etc.). I believe the new AppleTV that is due out next month will also accept IR signals. There are apps that allow control via iPhone/iPad, but I've never used them. And, they almost certainly will not control your whole system (most notably the TV) without other components.​

    3)b) The only problem with this scenario is that if we wanted to stream audio from a video (let's say, YouTube) the TV would have to be on, correct? We couldn't stream it to the play bar. When the wife and I wake up (upstairs), she normally goes to YouTube to find a playlist she likes. Since our townhouse is relatively small (1100 sqft - 3 floors), it would be nice if she could stream the audio of the video to the playbar, but that would require us to go downstairs and turn on the TV, correct?
    Technically you can keep the AppleTV always on (which I do for a different reason) and hook the audio out directly to your sound system (be it Sonos or other). Therefore, the TV display would not necessarily need to be on and you would be able to AirPlay to the AppleTV. However, if you run wiring through the TV only, then the TV would need to be on. Note, this may not work with the new AppleTV coming out next month without added "splitters" as it does not have a separate optical out port.​

    Also, your reply mentions both the Denon AVR-X2000 and Playbar. We wouldn't get both, correct? One or the other? Still debating between what makes more sense, the Sonos Playbar route or an AirPlay Receiver.
    Correct, you do not need a receiver if you get a Sonos Playbar. I have the Playbar in my family room and the Denon in my basement, so 2 totally different setups. The Playbar simply hooks to your TV. So the setup would be something like this: AppleTV/bluray/cable box/etc ---> multiple HDMI cables ---> TV ---> single optical cable ---> Playbar​

    As a question for the rest, if i'm looking to get a 55"-60" TV, do i have to be considered with the resolution quality with the apple tv? Snoopy's post has me worried a bit. Also, if I purchase an iPad with the 55"-60" TV/Apple TV, will that mirror/stream in 1080P quality and fit the full screen of the TV?
    No worries, will work perfectly. Is it the top available resolution by today's standards (i.e. - 4k), no. But it is excellent nonetheless.​
     
  15. boomhower macrumors 68000

    boomhower

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2011
    #15
    I haven't been able to get one box to do it all. Since I've cut the cord I have three boxes, Apple TV, Fire TV and an openelec Kodi box. They perform a needed function the others don't. I have a lot of my content, Apple nor Amazon supports NAS streaming. Fire TV doesn't have NBC Sports app. Apple TV doesn't have Sling TV. That's just an example for each and there are many more.

    For control I use a Harmony Smart Connect with 99% of the control coming from the little remote they provide, I rarely have to use a tablet and that was essential for the wife acceptance factor. Getting the Kodi box to work took some tinkering but it's fine now. The apps work great though and are available for both iPhone and iPad.

    For my NAS I also went with Synology with a DS214. It works great without a minute of trouble. Just make sure you get hard drives designed for a NAS.

    Sound is a 5.1 system based around a Yamaha receiver. It supports direct airplay but I always go through the Apple TV.
     
  16. DegreeZ thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    #16
    Hi jdag,

    Thanks....Further comments/questions below...

    1st, understood. I'm looking forward to seeing what the 4th gen AppleTV has in store for us next month.

    2c) I supposed the only addition to this would be to have a wired connection to the appletv and watch the built-in apps so it isn't technically "Streaming" in case it was a high resolution video, correct?

    3)b) Ah, good point. And AirPlay runs over Wi-Fi correct not Blue Tooth, correct? So there shouldn't be any issues with being upstairs and the ATV being downstairs?


    boomhower - The Harmony Smart Connect looks like the way to go. Looks like they have a smart phone app that I can use.
     
  17. jdag macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    #17
    2c) It is still streaming...just getting the content to the AppleTV via a wire vs wireless. 2 of my AppleTVs are wired and 1 is wireless, but all work very well. Honestly, I don't notice much if any difference in performance.

    3b) Yes, AirPlay runs over wifi and you don't need to be close to the AppleTV to send an AirPlay stream to it. As mentioned, you might need to fiddle around with the wiring to get this to work without the TV actually being powered on, but you should be able to do it, at least with the AppleTV 3rd gen.

    Fact is, if you are getting AppleTV(s) anyhow, you can experiment to see what works best for you without losing. You may find that something like the new Google Chromecast Audio adapter is an inexpensive and better option to stream audio only.

    But so much depends on your budget, use cases, the equipment you have, the stability of your network, etc.
     
  18. nebo1ss macrumors 68030

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    #18
    Just to add the the discussion on getting content to the Apple TV without a Computer or Itunes running I think we will see a lot more options with the APP store on ATV4. For example Synology have IOS apps for the iphone and Ipad called DS Video and DS Audio that connect directly to the NAS and play content. I would be very surprised if they are not ported to the ATV4.

    Another interesting development is that Samsung has released an App for IOS called Smart View 2. I don't know if it only works with some Samsung TV's but it is able to play video and Audio from my Phone directly to my Samsung Smart TV. It works just like Airplay.
     
  19. Gueeds macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2015
    #19
    Cheapest option would be an Airport Express + AppleTV or Chromecast. The Express for Airplaying audio to speakers or a receiver and the AppleTV for streaming video.

    Alternatively, you could get an Airplay receiver, but that would be more expensive. The Express is pretty cheap these days.
     
  20. westrock2000 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2013
    #20
    Apple TV supports 20+ Mb/s in H264. At 1080p, that is MORE then enough. I have an 82" 1080p and I can not tell the difference between a bluray disc and well ripped M4V. And I have tried. And I'm talking standing 12" from the screen comparing pixels. Forget sitting 10 feet away.

    You can go the subjective route and argue about 640kb/s AC-3 versus Super HQ Neo Digital 8.1 True Matrix. But on the video route, at 1080p, it's as good as Bluray source.

    The most glaring feature missing from *the new* Apple TV is 4K support.

    EDIT: Unless you were specifically referring to content purchased from the iTunes Store, then I would agree with you. But that is going to happen from any service.
     
  21. jdag macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    #21
    I was specifically referring to AppleTV content vs Bluray content on MY equipment...on my old projector (BenQ) and my new projector (Epson).

    For me, the AppleTV quality is not as good on either projector as via a bluray player, but is much improved on the Epson because it is simply a better projector than the BenQ.

    I am sure that there are even better projectors that would minimize or eliminate any advantages a bluray player has over AppleTV. Of course, the source content on most bluray discs is likely way better that on whatever I am comparing it to on the AppleTV.

    Summary: it depends.
     
  22. westrock2000 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2013
    #22
    Are you talking about iTunes material purchased/rented? I was referring to ripping/copying a bluray.
     
  23. phrehdd macrumors 68040

    phrehdd

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2008
    #23
    It sure seems to me you wont be able to do what you request in an "all in one" solution. Others too, have identified challenges and potential best options.

    Storage of local media - NAS or DAS would work depending on how large a volume you need. If you want iTunes as well, you might consider a simple solution of a Mac Mini with external storage (DAS option). If you already have Mac computers that you don't mind leaving on, you could always go for a NAS and let the Mac be the "brains" for iTunes play. I think the former is a more elegant way. There are plenty of enclosures to chose from for hard drives including those with RAID capabilities. If desired, you could via OSX do RAID 0,1,01 and 10.

    Phones and portables to TV - I guess we part ways here. If it plays on your iPhone, chances are it is either lower resolution or overly compressed and most likely is not the best video presentation for a typical size TV (37-65"). You might want to reconsider this one and look for ways to centralize your media and use the phone or other hand held to act as a remote for the TV from dedicated storage (as stated above). There are NAS units that can do conversions on the fly but in my estimates, I'd wait a bit longer until all the kinks are worked out included the heavy dip into one's wallet to acquire these NAS units

    Music - So many options here and certainly if you have Apple hand held devices, there is airplay, airfoil and other ways to distribute music. Worth noting, not all means of communications are the same and this goes for airplay that can only handle Apple friendly media and certainly not "hi rez" music such as 94/24 or 192/24 or even 44.1/24 music files without some sort of conversion to 44.1/16 (48/16?).

    Perhaps the best place to start is with the primary entertainment center - which would be TV, AVR and speakers. After that, you might want to start adding the pieces you desire. Those three items plus typical input devices (cable DVR or tuner, TiVo etc., and disc player). The AVR most likely would be one that handles airplay.

    Items to investigate - Sonos, Roku 4 (just came out), Kodi or PLEX, Smallnetbuild site for NAS reviews and perhaps remote software for your iPhone (Logitech and iRule come to mind).

    --------------------------------
    Marantz 1604 AVR, Goldenear Speakers, Oppo 103 BD player + various streaming services, TiVo Roamio
    QNAP NAS 5x4tb RAID 5, Mac Mini 2.0 quad (Linux+Kodi), rMBP, iPhone 5s, Netgear 7000 router, Zyxel 1200AV powerline and a few other items including Panasonic 65" VT50 plasma and Nvida Shield TV STB.
     
  24. jdag macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    #24
    yes, ripping blurays
     
  25. fischersd macrumors 68040

    fischersd

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Location:
    Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
    #25
    Heh. I was saying that those that are invested in the Apple ecosystem (i.e. They have lots of purchases content - TV shows and Movies - up in their iTunes catalog) may not want to invest in a NAS. If Apple had more reasonable pricing and future-proofed the offerings (i.e. Free upgrades to 4k and 8k when it comes), then I might consider migrating.

    I have far too much content stored on my Synology NAS to consider moving to a 3rd party cloud. :) 32TB and counting. :)

    As for those that suggested you need an ATV4 to access your Synology content - you DO know that you can use Plex, right? I've got ATV3's that I'm using Plex with - no issues whatsoever.
     

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