Apple, HP... etc.

[Tesselator]

Workstations have been this way since before the move to Core 2. Apple were just different for those first two and a half years. It's a niche market with plenty of spending power.

Have been what way? I'm not following. But workstations of a particular class from a particular maker are released each year (or two) with almost exactly the same price-tag yet nearly double the horsepower - at the 2 year mark. (This is generally well documented and it's even a Murphey's Law! ) It's been that way since "workstations" have been manufactured. SGI had a couple of exceptions but this is and has been the general rule. Apple, DELL, HP, Sun, and IBM also follow this. Well until 2009 when Apple went rouge. If DELL is too then it's not by mistake or out of greed and is probably due to their abilities in foreseeing something in the economy - was my point.

Or did you mean something else?

.

 

[Umbongo]

Have been what way?

Dell, HP, IBM, Sun all charge large premiums for components like processors, memory and storage on workstations (and servers). It has been that way for a long time. Maybe I misread what you were saying.

 

[Jouhne]

Well just to say, I'm not sure the economy is the cause here.
For me... I've bought a Mac Pro Quad 2,66 in 2006 with 8GB RAM (crucial) / 250 GB HD / Airport / 8800GT (upgrade in 2008 from the 7300GT). Total Price: around 3600€. (Yeah the FB-Dimm was not cheap).
Now in 2009. I want to go with the Quad 2,93 (performance is 2 times the Quad 2006) with 8GB RAM / 1TB HD / Airport / Radeon 4870HD. Total Price 3289€

So for me, there is no up in the price tag.

 

[Tesselator]

Dell, HP, IBM, Sun all charge large premiums for components like processors, memory and storage on workstations (and servers). It has been that way for a long time. Maybe I misread what you were saying.

Oh, yup! That's true. They all have their margins. That's the VAR/OEM business structure. I was saying that it doesn't massively jump around like Apple is doing.

They just went from offering machines that I could barely beat by assembling off-the-shelf parts to machines that I can beat by $1000 easy on any MP. Before their margin was contained in whatever they could get by buying bulk and manufacturing their own parts. This is how it should be ± alpha. Any premiums or margins beyond that are defined by how much value they feel they add as a brand. But now we have a huge jump in margin with the same value-progression and the same brand added values.

Anyway, I was just thinking that if indeed Apple aren't the only ones jumping like this then it's because they know something about the real devaluation of the dollar or what the state of the economy will be like in the coming months or something like that. I said that because someone said DELL was being ridiculous too. I know Nikon has jumped off a bit as well recently and some others too - tho none anywhere near as much as Apple has.

Make sense? Or am I still being too confusing?

EDIT:
Jouhne has a good point I haven't noticed before tho!

 

[nick9191]

Almost all the money in a Windows machine goes to Microsoft and Intel (unless there's a high-end GPU in which case ATI/Nvidia gets a healthy cut as well). HP, Dell, etc. make very little on these machines compared to those two.

I highly doubt that, since Apple, until now has offered there workstations at least $1000 US cheaper than the competition. And thats including Apple's 30% profit margin. Dell and HP are making at least a 70% profit margin on their workstations, and so is Apple.

Unfortunately it looks like Apple has gone from being satisfied with their 30% margin, to the point of robbing us blind just because Dell and HP do so, and they can get away with it.

 

[Umbongo]

Oh, yup! That's true. They all have their margins. That's the VAR/OEM business structure. I was saying that it doesn't massively jump around like Apple is doing.

Anyway, I was just thinking that if indeed Apple aren't the only ones jumping like this then it's because they know something about the real devaluation of the dollar or what the state of the economy will be like in the coming months or something like that.

Apple appear to be the only ones changing pricing like they have. Everyone else was already competing with each other so have similar pricing. Apple are also the only one competing with themselves I think (quad Mac Pro vs iMac). Kind of amusing really.

 

[davewolfs]

Don't be a bunch of wankers trying to compare systems. Here are the comparisons of building something home brew vs apple with the ATI card and 6GB of ram + 600GB drive:

As you can see if you are buying from someone else you are getting taken advantage of, unfortunately not everyone knows how to build their own machine.

 

[Salavat23]

Don't be a bunch of wankers trying to compare systems. Here are the comparisons of building something home brew vs apple with the ATI card and 6GB of ram + 600GB drive:

As you can see if you are buying from someone else you are getting taken advantage of, unfortunately not everyone knows how to build their own machine.

+10000000000000000.

I just went on Newegg and I can't believe how cheap it is to build a 2.26GHz Octo.

 

[davewolfs]

Yah, I basically priced the system based on equivalent parts from New Egg.

 

[Thunderchicken]

Yes, the price points are very different, but however there are too many variables to make it an option. As for a hobby it would be a fun project but nothing more than that.

When you compare Dell and HP you see the pricing is really closely, but you also have to account for all the software you have in apple format.

 

[davewolfs]

Yes, the price points are very different, but however there are too many variables to make it an option. As for a hobby it would be a fun project but nothing more than that.

When you compare Dell and HP you see the pricing is really closely, but you also have to account for all the software you have in apple format.

Can someone post a link to the dell configurator, I see no option for dual CPU on the workstation desktops.

 

[jlasoon]

Don't be a bunch of wankers trying to compare systems. Here are the comparisons of building something home brew vs apple with the ATI card and 6GB of ram + 600GB drive:

As you can see if you are buying from someone else you are getting taken advantage of, unfortunately not everyone knows how to build their own machine.

Give me a break, your the type of guy who would stick nitrous in his car and claim that people who drive Ferraris are getting taken advantage of because both cars have the same amount of horsepower.

There's a reason people pay a premium for a product, because they want it to FUNCTION PROPERLY for many years without headaches. If you can't afford it stay away from it, this system is not for everyone.

 

[cmaier]

Give me a break, your the type of guy who would stick nitrous in his car and claim that people who drive Ferraris are getting taken advantage of because both cars have the same amount of horsepower.

Hey - once you put one of them giant spoilers on the back, and maybe some purple lights on the undercarriage - it's just like a ferrari!

 

[Gonk42]

Dell prices, new, were previously much higher than Apples, now they are
on a par. But Dell machines have more RAM slots, the lack of RAM
slots on the Mac Pros is really putting me off more than the prices -
I don't want to wait in the hope that 4GB modules come down in price or
to use RAM in dual channel mode when it should be in triple
channel mode.

The other thing about Dell is Dell outlet, when the new workstations
start appearing on there they will be 30 to 40% cheaper with all
the same warranties etc. I've bought 3 lap tops from Dell outlet
and been happy with the service (though the lap tops are a bit
on the dull side!)

 

[Anonymous Freak]

Dell prices, new, were previously much higher than Apples, now they are
on a par. But Dell machines have more RAM slots, the lack of RAM
slots on the Mac Pros is really putting me off more than the prices -
I don't want to wait in the hope that 4GB modules come down in price or
to use RAM in dual channel mode when it should be in triple
channel mode.

As for dual-channel mode; many many Core i7 reviews have shown that there is very little (less than 5%) speed difference between dual-channel and triple-channel modes.

The extra RAM sockets are of course something that would be nice on the MP, though.

 

[benbraco]

Well you have to take all other price...

As a student, my mac on apple store edu + apple care

quad 2.93, 6go 1066 ECC, 640 go, GT120 512 mb, superdrive, apple care + free shipping = 3083$

equivalent dell 3500T as a student :

quad 2.93, 6go 1066 ECC, 750 go, quatro FX 580 512mb, 16xDVD+/-RW + 75$ shipping = 3035$

For me (student in high school), it's the same price and I choose the mac

Edit: Just did the same in my country Belgium (EU) with my student account:

Same computer:

Apple store Edu : 2843 €

Dell.be : 2987 €

So I'm really happy with my Mac Pro