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Spotify and the rest want to use Apple hardware, apple software, Apple services, apple customers and not pay a dime to Apple. In any other scenario in the world involving private companies where would this ever be okay.

Ridiculous. Spotify and others license Apple APIs and software. They also pay for the Apple devices they use. So do their customers with iOS devices.

Considering this, where will it ever be ok to for a company to bill for products and digital services that one does not even sell, much less distribute or produce, just because it owns the billing cash register that no one can.
 
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The fine, if there is one, they will pay regardless. I don’t think there should be a fine. The system does not need fines, needs clearer regulation for digital materials. The regulation is not that clear IMHO, but hey, I’m not a lawyer.
I'm not lawyer either. I just play one on MacRumors. But I don't think the digital marketplace needs clearer regulation. If anything it needs less regulation, to foster more innovation.
 
Could someone please explain to me under what laws Apple has any obligation to carry any 3rd party software in its App store? I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around all the arguments that somewhere along the way Apple surrendered the right to dictate how a product it designed, built and marketed should work. When did that happen?
 
"So why isn't Apple taking a 30% or 15% cut of sales from Amazon, Uber, Starbucks, and other companies that allow purchases to be made through their apps?

Apple can and does let companies avoid their commission fees so your claim that Apple "didn’t create the App Store to be a charity" is nonsense."



Well, actually its not nonsense. Maybe do a little research if you dont know why Apple doesnt take commision from everyone. They spell it out clearly. They take commission on apps that sell subscriptions. And they only take commission when that sale is through the app. So if you buy a sub to Spotify through the web, they dont take commission. Amazon sells products on Amazon app, Your not buying a subscription from Uber or Starbucks.
Apple does not take a commission on physical products or services. (eg Uber ride is a physical service. Starbucks coffee is a physical product. Amazon CDs/Books similarly, but they would for Kindle eBooks.)
 
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Apple does not take a commission on physical products or services. (eg Uber ride is a physical service. Starbucks coffee is a physical product. Amazon CDs/Books similarly, but they would for Kindle eBooks.)

They don’t. But according to many here they could If they ever so wished. The same reasoning justifying the current practice is applicable to kinds of products and services. That alone exposes the fallacy.
 
I think the important part is that Amazon, Uber, and Starbucks are not selling digital goods
I think the important part is that Apple takes a cut from companies that offer services that compete with Apple's own services.

Spotify and other streaming music services --> Apple Music
Epic and other gaming services --> Apple Arcade
news subscription services --> Apple News+
video services --> Apple TV+
cloud storage --> iCloud



Any why does it matter if a good is physical or digital?

Regardless, the claim that Apple "didn’t create the App Store to be a charity" is B.S.
 
They don’t. But according to many here they could If they ever so wished. The same reasoning justifying the current practice is applicable to kinds of products and services. That alone exposes the fallacy.
Not really a fallacy. Apple chose not to be a middleman if it cannot control the end-to-end receipt of a service/product. If I buy a refrigerator from the Best Buy app and Apple takes a sales commission, then if there is a problem with my receiving that refrigerator, I would go after Apple since they finalized the sale. Instead, Apple does not handle the transaction but Best Buy does and Apple is out of the sales loop. For digital content/distribution, Apple does control the sales process and takes a commission.
 
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[...]

Regardless, the claim that Apple "didn’t create the App Store to be a charity" is B.S.
Of course. Apple viewed the app store as a profit center from the get go. Offering a streamlined approach to testing, development, deployment, distribution and management of applications for a 30% fee. Seems reasonable to me.
 
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Spotify and the rest want to use Apple hardware, apple software, Apple services, apple customers and not pay a dime to Apple.
Everyone pays through developer fees.

If those fees weren't enough, then why are there so many free apps where Apple does not get 1 cent from their use?
 
The various antitrust issues from this and other cases as I understand it are:

- Apple uses data it acquires about Spotify, Netflix et al to work out how to compete, creating a conflict of interest in its role as platform holder and service provider

- because Apple charges competing service providers a high fee to use their platform, this gives its own services a competitive edge (this is where people get particularly upset - 'it's Apple's platform and they can do what they like with it!' - sentiments that don't really cut much ice in competition law)

- gatekeeping apps from the App store on the basis they hurt Apple revenue or because Apple doesn't like them (not because they are insecure). E.g. game streaming services, alternative app stores.

- the 30% cut (or 15% from subs) of App store revenue is vastly in excess of its costs of providing that service plus a reasonable profit margin (what's a reasonable margin and what's a monopolistic rent? One for the courts to work out)

- Apple forces all apps to use Apple Pay (and no directing users elsewhere) for in app purchases, which is a very expensive payment service provider (single digit % normally vs 30% for Apple)

Not directly at issue, but hardly irrelevant, the EU tax structuring arrangements that meant Apple's effective corporate tax rate was 0.05% (yes, Ireland is also to blame and I'm sure the EU isn't happy with Ireland about it either, but less they can do about it).

I just can't see Apple avoiding serious hot water at this point - probably on either side of the Atlantic.
 
Everyone pays through developer fees.

If those fees weren't enough, then why are there so many free apps where Apple does not get 1 cent from their use?
Neither does the developer get a cent for free apps. That's part of the app store, the dev is under no obligation to charge a fee...and as such Apple won't collect any commissions. Sure the dev pays $99.

Look at Epic $99 plus developers = $multiple hundreds of millions of dollars.
 
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I think the important part is that Apple takes a cut from companies that offer services that compete with Apple's own services.

Spotify and other streaming music services --> Apple Music
Epic and other gaming services --> Apple Arcade
news subscription services --> Apple News+
video services --> Apple TV+
cloud storage --> iCloud



Any why does it matter if a good is physical or digital?

Regardless, the claim that Apple "didn’t create the App Store to be a charity" is B.S.
Things, OmniFocus, ToDo et al. --> Reminders (free)
Fantastical, Calendar 5, Timepage --> Apple Calendar (free)
Camera+ --> Apple Camera (free)

Not sure what the point is. Netflix is available on iOS and Apple does not collect any commission from them. Amazon Kindle is available on iOS and Apple does not collect any commission from them either. In both cases, Netflix/Amazon only allow purchases to be made outside of the Apple Store. The same could be done by Spotify or Epic. But they want to be able to play in the Apple Store and not pay anything for doing so.
 
Isn’t there always going to be some advantage? What’s the solution? Because Apple has their own service, they can’t charge Spotify a fee to put their service on the App Store?

Where does this end? I’m in the position that Apple should have an advantage because they created the platform.
Apple's benefit is they sell more phones. Without third party developers, iPhone sales would be dismal, and the "platform" would be non-existent. Apple may have created the platform, but third parties carry it.

Apple made the choice to ban side loading on the iPhone so they should have to live with hosting their competitors products on their store without deriving a competitive advantage. In this case, if you want fairness, Spotify should pay Apple for their cost of app hosting and payment processing and nothing more.
 
The various antitrust issues from this and other cases as I understand it are:

- Apple uses data it acquires about Spotify, Netflix et al to work out how to compete, creating a conflict of interest in its role as platform holder and service provider
Opinion?
- because Apple charges competing service providers a high fee to use their platform, this gives its own services a competitive edge (this is where people get particularly upset - 'it's Apple's platform and they can do what they like with it!' - sentiments that don't really cut much ice in competition law)
What high fee? Is the fee higher for competitors than non-competitors?
- gatekeeping apps from the App store on the basis they hurt Apple revenue or because Apple doesn't like them (not because they are insecure). E.g. game streaming services, alternative app stores.
Because Apple claims certain types of apps pose a security risk? So what is it? Security risk or competition?
- the 30% cut (or 15% from subs) of App store revenue is vastly in excess of its costs of providing that service plus a reasonable profit margin (what's a reasonable margin and what's a monopolistic rent? One for the courts to work out)
I have never seen any legal action relating to supermarkets shelf stocking fees. The fees are a red-herring. If the government tries to step in and regulate them, I sense a SCOTUS challenge.
- Apple forces all apps to use Apple Pay (and no directing users elsewhere) for in app purchases, which is a very expensive payment service provider (single digit % normally vs 30% for Apple)
Legally we will see if this is an issue.
Not directly at issue, but hardly irrelevant, the EU tax structuring arrangements that meant Apple's effective corporate tax rate was 0.05% (yes, Ireland is also to blame and I'm sure the EU isn't happy with Ireland about it either, but less they can do about it).

I just can't see Apple avoiding serious hot water at this point - probably on either side of the Atlantic.
Who knows such things. I wish I too, had a crystal ball.
 
Europe has twice as many people as the US, so never.

Exactly. The whole leave the market is a non starter.

Basically the EU wants Apple to inform the users where they can buy an item cheaper AND give them a free taxi ride to the location.

It's even worse. Apple supposedly should also advertise using competing services.

Deevy and coredev:

Exactly. Spotify essentially wants Apple to shoulder all the costs of distribution, signing, etc. for the cost of a developer account and allow Spotify to advertise a competing service for free as well. They really just want to be a free rider.

They already get yearly developer subscriptions of Spotify and any app developer that publishes an app. Don't forget that Spotify is a free app.

yea, that $299 enterprise account certainly covers Apple's costs for certifying and hosting the Spotify app.

I can do it for Apple.

This move would be good for Spotify, but bad for the overall health of the App Store. This would basically allow every company to sidestep iTunes billing while retaining the convenience of letting people register within the app.

I still believe that if we want a thriving App Store ecosystem, every developer who can pay their share ought to do so.

Apple could simply change the way they charge for subscription apps. Let them advertise outside subscription options, but charge them for app store services such as downloads, signing, etc. that is now part of their whopping $299 enterprise developer account.

It is funny how people on here defend Apple no matter what. The EU charge is right. Apple is competing in the appstore and due to the fees, other similar services cost more. Why should Spotify or anybody else have to lower their standard price just so they can make the price look the same due to the Apple fee but get less money than Apple?

For the same reason traditional print magazines have done it via 3rd party subscription sellers such as Publishers Clearing House and others: to gain subscribers that make advertising rates higher. PCH not only charges less for a subscription but no doubt gets a cut. Apple's model is not new. It's Spotify's choice to charge more for IAP.

I think the important part is that Apple takes a cut from companies that offer services that compete with Apple's own services.

So? I sell a product I developed as well as a competitor's product. If a client choses the competitor's I get a cut of the sale and ongoing revenue. That is not an unusual situation, online or in B&M stores.

Regardless, the claim that Apple "didn’t create the App Store to be a charity" is B.S.

So why did they create it? To give stuff away for free and not make any money off of it?

Apple's benefit is they sell more phones. Without third party developers, iPhone sales would be dismal, and the "platform" would be non-existent. Apple may have created the platform, but third parties carry it.

True. The are complimentary goods in many ways, although the physical product is the driver of the digital one.

Apple made the choice to ban side loading on the iPhone so they should have to live with hosting their competitors products on their store without deriving a competitive advantage. In this case, if you want fairness, Spotify should pay Apple for their cost of app hosting and payment processing and nothing more.

They could, and I am guessing Spotify would start screaming if Apple changed the subscription model and charged for hosting, payment processing, signing, bandwidth usage, etc. It would probably cost them more in the end than the current model.
 
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I can do it for Apple.

This move would be good for Spotify, but bad for the overall health of the App Store. This would basically allow every company to sidestep iTunes billing while retaining the convenience of letting people register within the app.

I still believe that if we want a thriving App Store ecosystem, every developer who can pay their share ought to do so.
If you want to used the iap way for Spotify. Go ahead. If you don’t go ahead.
 
On one hand, yeah, Spotify would need to have a higher price to offset Apple’s commission which would lose customers. On the other hand, it takes money to host the app on Apple’s servers and distribute them over their network. One solution is maybe allowing side loading apps, or allow other app stores. Maybe let Apple issue a warning on 3rd party app stores along the lines of “Apple does not control the apps on this store, so do not hold Apple liable for any issues caused by the apps available here”
 
So? Are we supposed feel
Bad for apple.
You can’t keep saying “use your phone locked down, nothing will change”, yet we have seen proof time and time again that Epic on PC takes games and has them exclusively on the aspic Game Store. So how can I keep my phone locked when this happens on iOS?

If you say I don’t need to use the app, then you don’t need to use the App Store. There really is no life and death apps that are NEEDED to live.
 
Could someone please explain to me under what laws Apple has any obligation to carry any 3rd party software in its App store? I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around all the arguments that somewhere along the way Apple surrendered the right to dictate how a product it designed, built and marketed should work. When did that happen?

Under antitrust regulations a company with strong enough power in a market cannot use said power to distort competition in another market.

In this case, Apple has clearly quite a lot of power in the mobile devices' market with iOS/iPadOS and it's allegedly using said power to gain an unfair advantage in the music streaming market.

This is nothing new nor nothing special as antitrust case.

More info from the press release:
The Commission preliminary finds that Apple has a dominant position in the market for the distribution of music streaming apps through its App Store.
[...]
The Commission's preliminary view is that Apple's rules distort competition in the market for music streaming services by raising the costs of competing music streaming app developers.

The legal basis is also cited:
Article 102 of the TFEU prohibits the abuse of a dominant position. The implementation of these provisions is defined in the Antitrust Regulation (Council Regulation No 1/2003), which can also be applied by the national competition authorities.
 
On one hand, yeah, Spotify would need to have a higher price to offset Apple’s commission which would lose customers. On the other hand, it takes money to host the app on Apple’s servers and distribute them over their network. One solution is maybe allowing side loading apps, or allow other app stores. Maybe let Apple issue a warning on 3rd party app stores along the lines of “Apple does not control the apps on this store, so do not hold Apple liable for any issues caused by the apps available here”
Sideloading and alterate app stores, some believe are where the ecosystem will go downhill. App prices will be a race to the bottom with malware/spyware and copycat apps and no way to prune these apps with multiple apps stores.
 
On one hand, yeah, Spotify would need to have a higher price to offset Apple’s commission which would lose customers. On the other hand, it takes money to host the app on Apple’s servers and distribute them over their network.

The operative costs you mention are peanuts for a company like Apple. Furthermore, Eddy Cue himself stated that the operative costs are not the main reason in the consideration of Apple's cut (emphasis mine):

We obviously monitor our costs and what are costs are in running Apple at different points and different locations and different pieces of it. So I'm sure there are people that are looking at the cost of doing things around it. As it relates to the 30 percent of like, here's our justification for doing that, no, I don't recall having a conversation like that.
 
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