Apple is 'Watching Cryptocurrency' and Wants to Do More With Tipping and Mobile IDs

[Zoboomafoo]

One more thing of note. Cabs in Vancouver actually have an app similar to UBER (no Uber, though). Benefit is cabs go call to call and are scheduled like Uber rides, but cabbies are professional, trained and certified! Way to go, much better than Uber. Prices are reasonable too. and you pay with Apple Pay.

What goes into training/certifying drivers?

 

[lkrupp]

I would love an Apple Cash card to be a true debit card to go along with the Apple Card.

Also why is Apple getting credited with people not carrying cash? That goes to credit and debit cards. I haven’t carried cash since well before Apple Pay.

Well, when Apple does it it’s news. When somebody else does it, even if they are first, it’s not news.

 

[crawfish963]

I'm waiting for the day that we can use crypto to purchase goods without taxation from the government.

 

[CarlJ]

... I'm not sure I want government issued items in my phone. Various agencies are already clamoring for a reason to have access to mobile devices, needing to "audit" and "validate" IDs would be one more lever to try and gain further access. Maybe my tin foil hat is a little too tight today though

My only thing with digital driver licenses and such is that if I happen to get pulled over by a cop, I don't want to hand them my iPhone to verify my ID.

I've brought this up before, and have received responses from people in states that have digital drivers licenses, saying that the police aren't allowed to touch them, they just scan a barcode off your screen. I still see some potential for the government to decide at some point in the future that for our "safety" they "need" to ... "just take the phone back to the police cruiser for a minute". Yeah, working on my tin foil hat too.

 

[konqerror]

I'm waiting for the day that we can use crypto to purchase goods without taxation from the government.

You realize there's 5 states without sales tax? Where do you think they get their money? Answer: higher taxes on everything else, specifically income and property. (Specific businesses, in the case of Alaska)

 

[ESabis]

Yes, ApplePay is more secure than the typical electronic payment but ....
My wife's brand new, shiny, futuristic AppleCard got hacked in just 8 days. There we were, quietly relaxing and her phone starts going crazy. Walmart.com, Walmart.com, Coach.com, GuitarCenter.com, Walmart.com again, etc. etc.. About every 1-2 minutes a new charge hit.

She called support immediately and it sure didn't seem like your typical, top-notch, Apple support. Got to believe it was G-S. Nonetheless, she finally convinced them that it was not her making the charges. The followup calls continued for another couple of days, but everything seems OK now. Where was 2FA that would have stopped this?

My wife had only used the physical card about 3 times at the grocery store and a coffee shop. But those places certainly can't see the real card number. So the problem seems like it would be in all the recurring payments that she set up with the actual card number.

My question is, why are the big-name companies not jumping on Apple Pay? Why can't you use ApplePay for GEICO and Netflix and Hulu and Duke Energy and, and, and. Why do we still have to provide them with a physical card number that, I gotta' believe, is the source of the security breach.

What are they waiting for?

And oh by the way, as for the loser who hacked the card, mean people suck.

Thanks for reading.

 

[konqerror]

My question is, why are the big-name companies not jumping on Apple Pay? Why can't you use ApplePay for GEICO and Netflix and Hulu and Duke Energy and, and, and.

Apple Pay on the web uses a very complex protocol, EMV, that requires expensive and time consuming testing and certification. Even if you wanted to do it, the certification labs got backed up for the initial EMV, then people complained how long chip transactions took, so they had to do it all over again for the speed-up features (Quick Chip).

The media got all upset that the US was behind Europe with our magnetic stripes. Well, now we got an obsolete protocol with security holes, designed by committee, that has issues working with specific US laws (Durbin amendment).

Even with Apple Pay, they still receive the card number, which is a dumb part of this mess. EMV itself lacks many features to protect against compromise on the merchant side (tokenization).

 

[miniyou64]

bitcoin is going nowhere regardless of all the fake prices and paid bot accounts hyping it. None of the creeptos are. They are a crime infested cesspool of scams and the public has too much awareness of it now. She was giving a polite answer because she was asked a question and doesnt want to offend potential customers who may have wasted their money on crapto creepto pump n dump scams.

wow I feel bad for how left behind you’re going to be with that attitude

 

[tmiw]

Apple Pay on the web uses a very complex protocol, EMV, that requires expensive and time consuming testing and certification. The media got all upset that the US was behind Europe with our magnetic stripes. Well, now we got an obsolete protocol with security holes, designed by committee, that has issues working with specific US laws (Durbin amendment).

Even with Apple Pay, they still receive the card number, which is a dumb part of this mess. EMV itself lacks many features to protect against compromise on the merchant side (tokenization).

The EMV that replaces the magnetic stripe is designed for card present transactions, not online ones. There is a new EMV-SRC (Secure Remote Commerce) spec that's supposed to help with the latter but I don't think anyone's implemented that in the US yet.

Also, they did figure out a Durbin compliant solution that still allowed for EMV: usage of the common AID instead of the Visa/MC one (albeit with slightly different CVM list handling than the normal EMV spec).

My wife had only used the physical card about 3 times at the grocery store and a coffee shop. But those places certainly can't see the real card number. So the problem seems like it would be in all the recurring payments that she set up with the actual card number.

If those places used the physical card, they definitely did see the real card number (at least if they swiped instead of using the chip).

 

[konqerror]

The EMV that replaces the magnetic stripe is designed for card present transactions, not online ones. There is a new EMV-SRC (Secure Remote Commerce) spec that's supposed to help with the latter but I don't think anyone's implemented that in the US yet.

Apple Pay on the Web passes a encrypted contactless-like EMV token. I recall it used to also support contactless MCE, but they killed it when Visa ended support. Apple's idea was apparently to reuse the card-present iPhone pieces as much as possible.

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/passkit/pkmerchantcapability?language=objc

If those places used the physical card, they definitely did see the real card number (at least if they swiped instead of using the chip).

The physical Apple Card number cannot be used in a card-not-present transaction.

 

[laz232]

Apple does not have all your data. They host a lot of data encrypted, and don't have the keys. Apple is not "willing to share" anything with the government other than what is legally required in each jurisdiction where they do business. Where do you get all this information you are claiming?

From the wikileaks emails - the veracity of which have never been denied.
This is not about politics, this is about the principles, because we have seen that legal precedent that relies on "good faith" from the branches of government can quickly become abused when power is wielded by those with no compunction to morals or ethics.

"From:lisa_jackson@apple.com
To: john.podesta@gmail.com Date: 2015-12-20 17:26
Subject: Last night

[...] Thousands of times every month, we give governments information about Apple customers and devices, in response to warrants and other forms of legal process*. We have a team that responds to those requests 24 hours a day. Strong encryption does not eliminate Apple's ability to give law enforcement meta-data or any of a number of other very useful categories of data**."

*whatever that means.

**this may later extend to, oh, insurance companies so that your insurance coverage is decided by an algorithmic big data crunch. Bought a lot of eggs this year? maybe your premiums will go up, because the science due jour have determined that eggs are bad for you this year. I have done a lot of research in the medical literature, and remember how sugar was considered a great replacement for all those fats - and partially hydrogenated fats were better than natural fats. That science is now completely disputed. Even dietary cholesterol may no longer considered predictive of anything certainly not all-cause mortality (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3303886/)

Thus having Apple (or any company) with detailed knowledge of purchasing habits, in the abscence of actual understanding of the meaning of the data, yeah, seems like a bad idea to me...

 

[leicaman]

cryptocurrency/bitcoin? good luck with that. it may be useful for a secular type of financials but I dont see it going into everyones pockets or ewallets.

tipping? bleh.

I would think tipping becomes even more imperative if you want the good ones to continue to give you good service. I think tipping is the best part of this conversation.

Getting into cryptoscams is not the least bit interesting. If Apple wants to remain an ethical company they will not get in lightly.

 

[cmaier]

From the wikileaks emails - the veracity of which have never been denied.
This is not about politics, this is about the principles, because we have seen that legal precedent that relies on "good faith" from the branches of government can quickly become abused when power is wielded by those with no compunction to morals or ethics.

"From:lisa_jackson@apple.com
To: john.podesta@gmail.com Date: 2015-12-20 17:26
Subject: Last night

[...] Thousands of times every month, we give governments information about Apple customers and devices, in response to warrants and other forms of legal process*. We have a team that responds to those requests 24 hours a day. Strong encryption does not eliminate Apple's ability to give law enforcement meta-data or any of a number of other very useful categories of data**."

*whatever that means.

**this may later extend to, oh, insurance companies so that your insurance coverage is decided by an algorithmic big data crunch. Bought a lot of eggs this year? maybe your premiums will go up, because the science due jour have determined that eggs are bad for you this year. I have done a lot of research in the medical literature, and remember how sugar was considered a great replacement for all those fats - and partially hydrogenated fats were better than natural fats. That science is now completely disputed. Even dietary cholesterol may no longer considered predictive of anything certainly not all-cause mortality (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3303886/)

Thus having Apple (or any company) with detailed knowledge of purchasing habits, in the abscence of actual understanding of the meaning of the data, yeah, seems like a bad idea to me...

Sigh. “Warrants and other forms of legal process.”

Just because you don’t know what legal process means doesn’t mean “who knows.” It’s a very well understood term. In the U.S. we have warrants. Other countries have “other forms of legal process.”

In other words, they do what is required by law. They have never denied this. They require a court order or other legally-binding process before they give anyone anything.

As for “**” where does it say anything about giving anything to insurance companies? They give things to law enforcement agencies when they are required to do so by law. Would you like them to disobey court warrants? Should Tim Cook go to jail so that the police can’t find out who you sent an iMessage to?

 

[laz232]

Sigh. “Warrants and other forms of legal process.”

Just because you don’t know what legal process means doesn’t mean “who knows.” It’s a very well understood term. In the U.S. we have warrants. Other countries have “other forms of legal process.”

In other words, they do what is required by law. They have never denied this. They require a court order or other legally-binding process before they give anyone anything.

As for “**” where does it say anything about giving anything to insurance companies? They give things to law enforcement agencies when they are required to do so by law. Would you like them to disobey court warrants? Should Tim Cook go to jail so that the police can’t find out who you sent an iMessage to?

"Just because you don’t know what legal process means doesn’t mean “who knows.” It’s a very well understood term. In the U.S. we have warrants. Other countries have “other forms of legal process.”

We have an insurmountable disagreement as to implication and interpretation of those words.

In addition: "They give things to law enforcement agencies when they are required to do so by law." the other forms of legal process implies that also in cases where they may not be required, but where there is no legal impediment that they also do so.

"As for “**” where does it say anything about giving anything to insurance companies?" That was my extrapolation as to why one, regardless of ones trust of a countries legal system, should not be complacent in handing over detailed shopping information to companies that are eventually answerable to shareholders. And I realize that this is the same situation with ordinary credit cards which I use in addition to cash.

But all this is just based on my background in a variety of industries and seeing how cash flows dictate corporate policies.

Get an Apple Card if you want or BTC - I happen to have no time for either.

 

[konqerror]

Sigh. “Warrants and other forms of legal process.”

Just because you don’t know what legal process means doesn’t mean “who knows.” It’s a very well understood term. In the U.S. we have warrants. Other countries have “other forms of legal process.”

In other words, they do what is required by law. They have never denied this. They require a court order or other legally-binding process before they give anyone anything.

Not true. Apple will voluntarily disclose information without a warrant or legal process in what they believe to be an emergency.

https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/le-emergencyrequest.pdf
https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/emergency-requests.html

For all requests from government and law enforcement agencies within the United States for content, with the exception of emergency circumstances (defined in the Electronic Communications Privacy Act 1986, as amended), Apple will only provide content in response to a search warrant issued upon a showing of probable cause.

Also note the word content. Certain information is not considered "content", like phone and ISP connection records, bodies of text messages, e-mail headers, because there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. That is, Apple does provide information without a search warrant in those cases, e.g. National Security Letters.

 

[MacUser09425]

bitcoin is going nowhere regardless of all the fake prices and paid bot accounts hyping it. None of the creeptos are. They are a crime infested cesspool of scams and the public has too much awareness of it now. She was giving a polite answer because she was asked a question and doesnt want to offend potential customers who may have wasted their money on crapto creepto pump n dump scams.

Said like a smug, upper middle class denizen of a Developed Country. Crypto will be a life changer in the developing nations where access to banking/financial services are non-existent or fees are outrageous.

 

[Johnathan84]

cryptocurrency/bitcoin? good luck with that. it may be useful for a secular type of financials but I dont see it going into everyones pockets or ewallets.

tipping? bleh.

You don't see cryptocurrencies going into everyone pockets because you probably haven't done any research on cryptocurrency. Over two billion people in the world do not have bank accounts but most of that two billion do have cell phones. Cryptocurrencies will allow them to bank themselves. We're moving towards a cashless society. Apple knows this that why they added Cryptokit in iOS 13. Samsung is releasing their phones with crypto wallets built in them now.

One last thing theres more cryptos than Bitcoin.

 

[Brandhouse]

I've noticed certain point of sale systems (such as Square) can be customized so that a tip is automatically included with a default tip % amount.

That's highly presumptuous to think that:
• I want to tip; and
• that an amount is automatically calculated and as a user I have no input into that.

 

[rjtyork]

I'm waiting for the day that we can use crypto to purchase goods without taxation from the government.

It’s super crazy you say that because that’s exactly what will happen if blockchain wins. The scariest part? Blockchain looks like it’s winning. It could change of course, but in a 20-30 year window, governments will collapse if bitcoin or any other crypto currency becomes mainstream. That means anarchy. We live in interesting times.

 

[BGPL]

We know from experience that when Apple "watches" something, they usually plan to do absolutely nothing with it. And if they do, it's after someone has already done it and removed all risk from the equation.

 

[Abazigal]

"We're watching cryptocurrency. We think it's interesting. We think it has interesting long-term potential, but we're primarily focused on what consumers are using today... and are happy with. Most people are pretty happy with their debit card as an example. And so helping people do that in a more secure way on our platform and in a more real time way is what we're focused on."

I just want Apple to make great computers and OSes so that I can do my work most efficiently. I want Apple Computer Company - not Apple Consumer Company

The last thing that anyone should want is a single powerful company that has all your data, what you think (texts, Siri etc), what you spend it on (banking) - and is willing to share it with the government (Apple has already admitted this in released emails - Tim Cooks protests and tweets are not legally binding). Because, you know, company CEOs, like presidents, aren't always on your side. They are on the side of the shareholders


On a recent podcast, Adam Curry reminded me that under Steve Jobs Apple’s mission statement was
“To make a contribution to the world by making tools for the mind that advance humankind.”

Apple’s current mission statement is “Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS X, iLife, iWork and professional software. Apple leads the digital music revolution with its iPods and iTunes online store. Apple has reinvented the mobile phone with its revolutionary iPhone and App store, and is defining the future of mobile media and computing devices with iPad.”

And now Apple is revolutionizing the credit card industry - buy, buy, buy more, people!

I think there is merit in Apple using its clout and influence to push forth its values of privacy and security in new markets such as finance. There’s a growing trend where people think there is nothing left in an industry to disrupt, then Apple comes in and puts their own spin on things, and then you wonder why other companies aren’t going it and how you lasted so long without it.

I am reminded of how Facebook had to set up a new organisation just to distance itself from its own crypto offering and the negative connotations that come from being associated with it. In contrast, I think that the Apple brand is strong enough to prop up any digital currency that Apple would release.

 

[pipis2010]

bitcoin is going nowhere regardless of all the fake prices and paid bot accounts hyping it. None of the creeptos are. They are a crime infested cesspool of scams and the public has too much awareness of it now. She was giving a polite answer because she was asked a question and doesnt want to offend potential customers who may have wasted their money on crapto creepto pump n dump scams.

Crypto/Digital currencies are the future my friend, sorry to disappoint you

 

[danny842003]

So glad I don’t live in a nation where tipping is really a thing. Just pay workers what they deserve and charge customers accordingly.
I can’t stand fake people and one of the most frustrating things I found about the states was staff being overly nice to earn tips, I just find the whole situation uncomfortable.

 

[Objectivist]

bitcoin is going nowhere regardless of all the fake prices and paid bot accounts hyping it. None of the creeptos are. They are a crime infested cesspool of scams and the public has too much awareness of it now. She was giving a polite answer because she was asked a question and doesnt want to offend potential customers who may have wasted their money on crapto creepto pump n dump scams.

Let me guess (assuming you are old enough), 30 years ago you were saying "this internet thing will never take off!".

 

[Tech198]

cryptocurrency/bitcoin? good luck with that. it may be useful for a secular type of financials but I dont see it going into everyones pockets or ewallets.

tipping? bleh.

**edit, why are my posts being edited?
"tipping? bleh. (I tip well, but its getting pretty ridiculous as prices continue to go up and they dont pay their people)."

For one, not everyone uses cryptocurrency, and e-wallets, and others just prefer the good old plastic. I've dipped my toe (once or twice) in Apple pay here at service stations in Australia, and i *might* use it... I'm just waiting for my bank to support it first..

To me, changing backs just because of non-Apple Pay is a long stretch.. I'd rather wait.