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melgross said:
I don't agree. Apple charges $0.99. Out of that, they pay about $0.75 royalties and other fees. That leaves $0.24 cents left over for all of Apple's costs and profits.

This includes programmers, artists, and other staff to keep the site continually updated with new songs, books, freebie stuff, etc.

Legal costs involved with negotiations with artists, record labels, etc.

Rent on facilities. Taxes, fees, and other costs of doing business.

Costs of bandwidth, servers, cooling systems, etc.

It also includes a good deal for advertising, which has to pay for itself through sales of the iPod and iTunes.

After all of this (plus other miscellaneous expenses), Apple makes about a nickel per song.

Increasing the storage space will cost, but only a very small percentage of those total costs of $0.19. The same for the extra bandwidth, the costs are slight, and will be handily paid for with the extra charge. Remember Real, and MS already offer slightly higher bandwidth, at the same price.

I just don't think they would get the volume to make your model work. Again no knowing the actual costs to add storage space or increase bandwidth, I can't speak real intelligently on this but I would guess that an increase of 200% would be cost prohibitive.
 
Kirtus said:
I just don't think they would get the volume to make your model work. Again no knowing the actual costs to add storage space or increase bandwidth, I can't speak real intelligently on this but I would guess that an increase of 200% would be cost prohibitive.

It wouldn't be that expensive. If you look at the figures you can see that. Just saying that it would be too expensive without some numbers to support your statement isn't helpful.

Storage is cheap, and so are servers. It takes about 4 Terabytes of storage to hold one million songs. One Xserve Raid holds up to 3.5 Terabytes for a little over $10,000. Assume that for speed and redundancy that Apple had as many as ten of these on site. That's about $100,000. If they also had ten Xserves, loaded, though not with three drives, just one, that would total about $60,000.

Add maybe $40,000 for ancillary equipment, and we have a nice round total of about $200,000. They won't need more staff for such a small amount of additional equipment.

A pretty small investment don't you think? Even if you doubled it, it would be small.

Bandwidth costs are, as I've said, fairly cheap these days, and Apple has plenty of it. They may not even need more.

This would hardly even impact their bottom line.

It would cost to re-incode all of that music, but they could do the new ones as they come on, and do the rest over a short time.
 
i just don't think there's much "market" for apple to bother offering two different versions. majority of the people who owns an iPod probably still rips their own CDs as mp3s because they don't know any better.

regardless, it's by design that the iTMS AAC is offered at such a (low) bitrate so that the conversion from AAC to CD to mp3 will degrade the song. this was part of the deal right at the beginning to satisfy RIAA's request that the songs sold won't easily be made into mp3s and that the resulting mp3s be inferior in quality. (and presumably, in RIAA's view, onto p2p.)
 
profits

And, I forgot to say, by the way what the profits are that would allow this.

Apple is selling about 4 million songs a week. If they make a nickle a song, as has been said, that's about $200,000 PROFIT a week. That would pay for the upgrade easily.
 
jxyama said:
i just don't think there's much "market" for apple to bother offering two different versions. majority of the people who owns an iPod probably still rips their own CDs as mp3s because they don't know any better.

regardless, it's by design that the iTMS AAC is offered at such a (low) bitrate so that the conversion from AAC to CD to mp3 will degrade the song. this was part of the deal right at the beginning to satisfy RIAA's request that the songs sold won't easily be made into mp3s and that the resulting mp3s be inferior in quality. (and presumably, in RIAA's view, onto p2p.)

That's YOUR design. I doubt if Apple made the desision to encode at that rate so that Mp3's would sound bad. You might want to think that, but it's hardly tenable. They encoded it at that rate because MP3's have generally been encoded at that rate and people mostly think that's ok. Apple uses AAC, which has better quality at the same rate.

As people are used to counting how many songs would fit in a player based on that rate, Apple did it as a marketing move, so that people could compare directly without having to make in the head conversions. Remember that we used to think of an album as fitting in a 64k player. Thats why Apple did it.

And there is a market for a higher quality product. I know plenty of people who would pay a bit more for a much higher quality song. The difference between 128 and 256 variable, is astounding. For a small extra cost to them, Apple would be drawing in a fairly large number of people who have been staying out of that market. Plus, they could advertise that they have the highest quality music. Some artist have stated that they didn't like the quality of downloaded music, and so they were not going to do it until it improves.
 
melgross said:
That's YOUR design.

no... when iTMS started, jobs alluded to this.

let me go look for the source of my claim. perhaps long time MR member can remember and chime in?
 
jxyama said:
no... when iTMS started, jobs alluded to this.

let me go look for the source of my claim. perhaps long time MR member can remember and chime in?

I've been following this pretty closely, and I don't remember anything like that.

If someone does, please put the quote up here. Not just "I think I remember..."

I would think that MS and Real would have also had to agree to the same thing. Especially if the RIAA could show that Apple agreed, and as Apple is far and away the largest seller, they could then get MS and Real to agree.

But they don't encode at 128 and MS uses variable-rate as well. so how does that follow your argument?
 
jxyama said:
if windows would do something as ridiculous as disabling MPEG2 (DVD) playback, or any other "de facto" multimedia codecs, consumers will not stand up against it.

You're exactly right, even though I'm certain that you meant to say that consumers wouldn't stand for it.

If the dominant hardware platform and operating system were to align with the media conglomerates in a way that required everyone buy their media from their united front, then most people would just do so. There's no point in claiming otherwise, because it hasn't happened with any of Microsoft's other absues and assaults on fair use, intellectual property, copyrights, user's rights, and other concepts that people ought to be worried about. In addition, the current MPEG2 DVD format is about to go the way of VHS, making way for one of the competing HD-DVD standards.

Most people just don't care, and will do what they have to so that their favorite movie/music/show/whatever will play, and that's what Redmond is banking on. With emerging standards and a DRM operating system, the stage is set to start really, truly taking control of the media experience, just like they wanted to control the 'net.

windows isn't a choice for most right now because it does most things consumers expect it to and does it reasonably well. once M$ steps over the bounds of what's acceptable, consumers will switch to a better alternative. windows isn't popular because people feel some loyalty to it.

Ha!

So the tides of virii, trojans, security exploits, lost data, reinstalls, and other headaches that plague home users aren't enough, but you think a media codec will do it? All that Microsoft will have to do is require that you run signed media, which they'll negotiate with the companies that provide the content - and who WANT MORE CONTROL OF THE FORMAT.

For everyone but consumers and Microsoft's competitors, this is a win-win situation, because people will need new hardware and software, and the media companies can sell things to be played with them. They all make money, from the tiniest chipmaker involved in TCI all the way up to the owners of the distribution channels.

as soon as people find out their windows PC can't play back DVD (because MPEG2 is disabled), dell support will be flooded with questions about why such is the case and a lot of angry customers will say no more windows.

Because, you know, Dell support isn't already flooded with questions and people are leaving Windows in droves.

:rolleyes:

lastly, M$ is mostly about leveraging their monopoly and financial strength to overtake existing and proven profitable market. such a company never have a "big picture" - their big picture is being innovated by other companies and they are just waiting to see if it becomes profittable. if any company is thinking "small time" by basically repeating "wait until profittable then take over" tactic, it's M$.

Do a little research:
Palladium
TCI
DRM

Come back when you can tell me why those three are related, and how they don't play into Microsoft leveraging their monopoly. I mean, hell... You just made my point for me!
 
thatwendigo said:
Do a little research:
Palladium
TCI
DRM

and how successful has M$ been in implementing (rather, shoving down consumers throats) those? :rolleyes:
 
liketom said:
good stuff , what happend to the Beatles law suit ? was a deal struck ?

yeah what happened? i had actually forgotten about the whole thing. they're probably still on court.. seems like these things go on like snails :p I guess Steve's Apple is gonna pay something to Paul's Apple. hopefully not.
 
Apple did the right thing when they put iTunes on Windows and made an iPod compatible with Personal Confusers. That's where their A+ game came into play. They probably don't sweat the MS Music Store in the least because of their integration already in place. Great forward thinking by Mr. Jobs!
 
Kirtus said:
Wow! I can't believe how paranoid everyone is. I have only been a Mac user for just over a year now. And I understand that you longtime Mac users have had some hard times in the past but could we have a little more positive energy here? Apple has a really good thing going here. They have a product that is introducing people all around the world to their computers. And every person who switches tells everyone they know about how great their new computer works. I know this because I do. Because of how wonderfull my emac/airport basestation/iPod work I have talked at least 3 people into switching to Apple products. I have also directed several more to the itms. This is good news! Could it be better? Yes. But this is good news. :)

I wish I had that easy time converting people to Mac. Everyone I know say "I don't like macs" and the reason is "because I don't know how to use them". Also, when I try to convince them it's not that different and it's very easy to learn, they just mumble. And the no viruses -thing doesn't work on them for some reason, even if I say it in a situation where this person has his/her computer stuck because of a virus. Oh, and then there's the price point. My friend recently told me she would be buying a computer and asked for my advice. She's not too experienced with computers and I told her she should get an eMac and that the price would be around 850€. At this point she was like "WOAH!" and the game was over.

WHY??? I't probably because of living here on the dark side of the world where the PCs are the better platform in every cases.
 
SiliconAddict said:
Apple can stay on top if they play their cards right. Lets be honest here guys. Until MS, Apple has had no competition. Napster and Music Match were and are a joke. This Fall and next Summer is going to be the first true test of how sustainable the iPod\iTunes powerhouse really is. Here's hoping Apple cleans the floor with Microsoft's butt.

You forget that still the downloadable music market is extremely small - compared to CD sales it accounts for only a minor percentage (like 2% or maybe less). It will change over time - and how many iPods are there out there by then? at 82% marketshare and rumors of even a Flash-player coming? Apple does not need to license its format before the download market is a major seller - and maybe never as long as they are better and equal/lower priced than competition. People today choose iPod for its total integration and style - and basically to play their existing music collection. A lot of people are wary of the DRMs of the online stores, and stays with CDs (or Kazaa) still - for that iPod is just fine.

Everyone is saying Apple should either open their iPods to WMA or license the DRM. The first then fouls up iTunes integration - most other stores would certainly not work through iTunes, adding complications to users - one of the big selling points. The other is meaningless for the same reason except if iTMS is going to be an inferior client. The two are tied in, and so is the user.

Apple just needs to make sure they have competetive players and a state of the art music store - then they'll stay on top. That said - such a task ain't necessary easy :)
 
ASP272 said:
Apple did the right thing when they put iTunes on Windows and made an iPod compatible with Personal Confusers. That's where their A+ game came into play. They probably don't sweat the MS Music Store in the least because of their integration already in place. Great forward thinking by Mr. Jobs!


Heh.. no sweat. They say MSN is a competitor, but hey - iPod is sporting 82% of the market for players, and then MSN and all the other stores are actually competing for the 18% remaining (and declining) part of the market (shows a bit in the 70% iTMS marketshare no?)

Good luck, I'd say :D
 
thatwendigo said:
All it takes is undocumented shifts in the APIs, a few malicious bits of code here and there, and the application of the "signed code" aspect of Longhorn/Palladium to block out any application that Microsoft doesn't want to have running.
Do you seriously think that Microsoft is so all-powerful that there is no force that could ever prevent this?

Why don't we all just preemptively quit all our jobs and become personal slaves to Bill Gates then? Why don't we just sign over the entire government to them in advance?

Your incredible level of pessimism is staggering. If we were to believe you, then we might as well all commit suicide in order to avoid living through a Microsoft-created Hell-on-earth.

The only way you could be even less credible is if you said it was all at the request of saucer-people from outer space.
thatwendigo said:
Do you really trust Microsoft to tell you what you should and shouldn't be allowed to run on your computer?
You seem to be saying that we already have no choice in the matter.
thatwendigo said:
How do you "defeat" a chip? Congress votes on laws, not silicon.

So it exists. Maybe the government is even using it for their own communications. Who cares.

They're not forcing anybody else to use it. They're not prohibiting anybody from using anything else. (Those laws were never passed.)

Can you show me any example of a non-government corporation actually using this chip? Or do you think we should pass laws forbidding its use, just in case somebody might decide it has a useful application?

Your paranoia is staggering. Do you live in a dark closet wrapped in tin-foil? Maybe you should destroy your computer - after all, the aliens can read your thoughts through your USB ports.
 
melgross said:
I don't agree. Apple charges $0.99. Out of that, they pay about $0.75 royalties and other fees. That leaves $0.24 cents left over for all of Apple's costs and profits.
...
After all of this (plus other miscellaneous expenses), Apple makes about a nickel per song.
According to information from yesterday's quarterly report, iTMS makes about 3 cents profit per song. (Up from zero this time last year.) It is expected to rise over the next few years.
 
melgross said:
They encoded it at that rate because MP3's have generally been encoded at that rate and people mostly think that's ok. Apple uses AAC, which has better quality at the same rate.


I think this is the driving factor -- most people are more than happy with 128k files. It also means you can fit quite a few more on your iPod -- I believe this ties in with their 1000 songs number.

I'd love to see some numbers (I don't have any) - but I'm sure most people don't notice much difference at all between 128k and 256k encodings. From my personal experience I don't notice the difference unless I'm using equipment worth more than, say, $200 which is probably more than what most people are using on their pc speakers. (and I know the iPod is worth more than that, but the headphones aren't... )
 
Re: 128Kbps

melgross said:
They encoded it at that rate because MP3's have generally been encoded at that rate and people mostly think that's ok. Apple uses AAC, which has better quality at the same rate.
It's worth noting that before AAC and iTMS - when iTunes/iPod were primarily MP3 - Apple was assuming 160Kbps files for their iPod capacity estimates. They only started using 128Kbps for the estimates after they introduced AAC support.
 
jxyama said:
and how successful has M$ been in implementing (rather, shoving down consumers throats) those? :rolleyes:

Intel's Sonoma mobile chipset will have TCI built-in, and IBM's already toeing the line with one of their desktop sets. As for pushing the standard into consumer space, would you mind pointing out which of the following companies isn't a huge player in computing:

Microsoft
Sony
Sun
AMD
Intel
HP
IBM
ATI
Dell
Fujitsu
Hitachi
Infineon
Lexmark
Motorola
National Semiconducter
nVidia
Samsung
Sygate
Symantec
Texas Instruments
VeriSign
Via
Gateway
Toshiba
RSA

Here's a hint: They're all members of the Trusted Computing Alliance. Represented in that list, you have the vast majority of the processors, motherboard chipsets, architecture chips, graphics cards, security and encryption technology, and other major aspects of consumer computing.

shamino said:
Do you seriously think that Microsoft is so all-powerful that there is no force that could ever prevent this?

If you'd paid attention to what I said in the first place, I advocated trying to put a stop to this now, before it's too late and they really are too powerful to be halted. The United States government seems to have little to no interest in keeping Microsoft honest, and there is nothing but gain in supporting them for the media companies. The RIAA's clients have shown they have no regard for end users already, and respect only their botom line.

The kind of insane control TCI will allow is just what they want.

You seem to be saying that we already have no choice in the matter.
How do you "defeat" a chip? Congress votes on laws, not silicon.

"A society that would sacrifice a little essential liberty for a little security will have neither and deserve neither."

Your paranoia is staggering. Do you live in a dark closet wrapped in tin-foil? Maybe you should destroy your computer - after all, the aliens can read your thoughts through your USB ports.

Nice trolling. I think we're done here, since you can't respond without making ad hominem attacks.
 
thatwendigo said:
Intel's Sonoma mobile chipset will have TCI built-in, and IBM's already toeing the line with one of their desktop sets. As for pushing the standard into consumer space, would you mind pointing out which of the following companies isn't a huge player in computing:

Microsoft
Sony
Sun
AMD
Intel
HP
IBM
ATI
Dell
Fujitsu
Hitachi
Infineon
Lexmark
Motorola
National Semiconducter
nVidia
Samsung
Sygate
Symantec
Texas Instruments
VeriSign
Via
Gateway
Toshiba
RSA

Here's a hint: They're all members of the Trusted Computing Alliance. Represented in that list, you have the vast majority of the processors, motherboard chipsets, architecture chips, graphics cards, security and encryption technology, and other major aspects of consumer computing.
These companies are members of every product consortium in existance. I would find it shocking if they weren't in TCA.

This means nothing.

Tell me, which ones have announced products with this feature? Anybody?

You may also remember other things like I2O, which was supposed to replace PCI slots and lock out open-source developers. People were all up in arms about it because all the big vendors participated in its development. And guess what? There hasn't been a single product shipped with it.
 
my point wasn't who's taking part of TCI, etc. my point was there has not been a wide and successful (semi-forced) implementation of palladium/WMA+DRM/etc. such that the average consumers are inconvenienced. you know why? because as soon as vendors cross the certain line and decide that the consumers can be inconvenienced at the benefit of the interest groups, consumers won't take it. that's why i said it's been proposed, suggested, etc. but hasn't been successfully implemented - because you can't make people with money to pay for what they perceive to be imperfect.

name me a product with full palladium that's reached the mass consumers.

name me a product with WMA+DRM that's reached the mass consumers.

if palladium, etc. are ever to hit the masses, it will have to be done in a way to not overstep the boundary of what consumers feel acceptable. case in point: copy protected music CDs. look where that's going. consumers won't tolerate it because it's not acceptable to them.

the way you described the future of palladium, TCI, etc. is that the consumers will swallow whatever is shoved down their throat - i respectfully disagree.
 
Intel's D865GRH reference motherboard

Intel's PDF on LaGrande and TCI

Some highlights:
Requires new hardware that ranges from motherboard and processor down to specific keyboards, BIOS, and graphics cards. If this isn't a recipe for hardware vendors making ridiculous amounts of money on refreshing the purchase cycle, I'd love to hear what it is.

Also, see the widespread criticism of "signed code" approach, and how it's the vulnerability in XP currently.

IBM defends TCA and states that they offer products with the chips already.

Tom's Hardware references the existing, manufactured chipsets:

National's SafeKeeper family includes two parts, the PC8374T Desktop and PC8392T Notebook Trusted I/O devices, which are based on National's embedded 16-bit CompactRISC core technology. Both reside on the low-pin-count (LPC) bus, which sits at the intersection of input devices to the PC. Both chips are based on TCG's TPM 1.1b specification. The desktop chip is priced at $5 in 1,000-unit volumes, the notebook chip at $7.​

CNet coverage:

Applauded in the paper are three features of the best-known trusted computing technology, Microsoft's Next-Generation Secure Computing Base, that may be positive ways of securing consumers' computers. However, the EFF criticized a fourth feature--known as remote attestation--as a threat that could lock people into certain applications, force unwanted software changes on them and prevent reverse engineering.

Remote attestation allows other organizations that "own" content on a person's computer to ascertain whether the data or software has been modified. Such technology could easily be at odds with a computer owner's interests, said Seth Schoen, staff technologist for the EFF and the primary author of the paper.

...

The companies have formed a new group, the Trusted Computing Group, to work on a single hardware design that will be supported by a number of software programs, including Microsoft's controversial security prototype.​

More CNet:

Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation and of the GNU project for creating free versions of key Unix programs, lampooned the technology in a recent column as "treacherous computing."

"Large media corporations, together with computer companies such as Microsoft and Intel, are planning to make your computer obey them instead of you," he wrote. "Proprietary programs have included malicious features before, but this plan would make it universal."

He and others, such as Cambridge University professor Ross Anderson, argue that the intention of so-called trusted computing is to block data from consumers and other PC users, not from attackers. The main goal of such technology, they say, is "digital-rights management," or the control of copyrighted content. Under today's laws, copyright owners maintain control over content even when it resides on someone else's PC--but many activists are challenging that authority.​

Extremetech dissects an Intel Presentation:

Looking at the above slide, you can see that CPU extensions were required to ensure domain separation, and to provide a secure space for the protected kernel and domain manager (DM) software. This means that the protected kernel and domain manager must be able to operate at a privilege level that is more privileged than Ring 0 in today's x86 CPUs. You may recall that many core OS services, kernel functions, and device drivers generally operate at Ring 0. Application software operates at Ring 3, and Rings 1 and 2 in x86 chips aren't really used much, though available if intermediate levels are desired. The problem in today's x86 architecture is that hacking programs can compromise Ring 0 security, and therefore a safer, restricted-access, unhackable (one hopes) protection level is required.

While Intel did not formally name this highest protection level yet, I saw a few references to "Ring -1" in a few foreign tech Web sites earlier this year, though they were simply concocting a logical name based on what little was disclosed about LaGrande at the time. It is supposed to be near impossible (though we know we might eat these words someday) for a hacker or errant application to set itself running at this highly privileged privilege level, or access other protected code residing and/or executing at that level. I'll soon describe how the trusted execution environment is set up based on Grawrock's class material.

...

Only USB mice and keyboards are covered by LT technology as protected input devices as defined today, not PS/2 mice and keyboards. Also, graphics adapters must be re-architected to support a secure channel from the system to the frame buffer. The ICH (I/O controller hub) has protected access to the TPM for reading and writing information. Finally, in order to be considered a LaGrande-compliant platform, the system must include an LT CPU, LT compatible chipset, and the new TPM version 1.2. The TPM v1.2 specification is not available yet, but to get familiar with the technology you can download the latest public TPM 1.1b spec. Note that the Trust Computing Group's TPM spec provides a superset of TPM capabilities required by LT.​
 
thanks for you research, but you still haven't gotten my point. none of those implementations pose much inconveniences for mass consumers. they aren't inconvenienced when their motherboards have restricted compatibility, etc.

what you suggested, like windows crippling media playbacks, etc. WILL cause major inconveniences to the masses. i'm saying those things will not stand.
 
jxyama said:
thanks for you research, but you still haven't gotten my point. none of those implementations pose much inconveniences for mass consumers. they aren't inconvenienced when their motherboards have restricted compatibility, etc.

If you're not inconvenienced by being required to replace everything in your computer or buying a new machine, then you've got a lot more money than I do. Apparently you missed the implication that Longhorn, TCI, and the DRM OS approach will require everyone to refresh their hardware in order to be allowed to use the next generation media.

what you suggested, like windows crippling media playbacks, etc. WILL cause major inconveniences to the masses. i'm saying those things will not stand.

Why?

I just showed you all kinds of things in support of my position, but you've yet to show a single shred of evidence that consumers "won't stand" for the alterations. Can you show me documentation of large numbers of people leaving Windows over things that Microsoft has done? How about the media companies actually losing money when they move to restrictive DRM and copy-protection?
 
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