Apple Laying Groundwork for Advanced Mobile Web Apps?

[Lesser Evets]

Here here. Me too.

I really don't get this web stuff.

Cubed.

I can kinda see it, and it is interesting to dabble with, but how this creates any special revenue for a company is beyond me. At this time the web and connectivity is TOO LIMITED. And, it is juxtaposed to huge memories and quick devices. Apps take no space compared to video/sound data which clogs up all these mobile devices.

To me it seems as if these companies want to switch to cloud computing one day and thus cut off people's access to computing tools unless they play ball every day of every year. It also means they can place whatever kind of propaganda/advertising in their apps whenever they want and the end user hasn't enough stability to get patches which would lock out such programming.

It is definitely a great plus for people/sites with great apps no one wants to download until they try the online version which can be trialed and ditched or downloaded.

 

[*LTD*]

Seems Apple is keen to dominate the mobile web. This is promising.

 

[jciapara]

Thanks

Edit: Just re-read the story.

Showtime is a great example of this. Go to: www.showtime-app.com (on your iPhone / iPod Touch) & then add it to your homescreen.
It looks & feels like a native app the next time you launch it.

Thanks for that Webpage. I actually go to each of my favorite series' episode guide to see if a new episode has come out, this app tells me all of them in one page!.

 

[akacaj]

There is a template for that! This functionality is available now and has been around since at least 3.0. Check out Dashcode.

 

[Aetles]

These are for sure valid points.
And yet there are like 100.000 apps and everyone goes crazy about them (users and developers alike)

I don't see how that has anything to do with it. The number of apps in the App Store doesn't say anything about the reasons for wanting better web apps.

The numbers of apps in the App Store doesn't help the developer who wants to do things Apple won't allow them, or wants to get updates immediately or doesn't have the money to pay.

I'm not arguing that web apps are better (they're usually not) or that the user wan't them (they don't) but that there is valid reasons for developers to create web apps when the App Store won't do. And for those web apps, the better and more native-like the UI is, the better it is for the user.

Therefor this news is great news of course, but most people here seems very negative about it.

The fee for being allowed to publish apps in the App Store is not big for developers that sell apps. But for those who just wan't to put out a small app for free, then the fee could be the showstopper by itself.

I have an example: Daagaak, the developer of the free app Gallery Remote, wont renew his certificate and therefor this app will disappear from the App Store:

Due to personal circumstances I am not planning to renew my iPhone developer certificate when it runs out this coming Monday. This means two things, firstly there will be no further updates to Gallery Upload (the chances of any bug fixes being approved within 3 days is zero to, well, zero) and secondly, Gallery Upload will be taken off the App Store as my certificate expires.​

This is an excellent example of an app that would benefit from being a web app instead, if web apps were able to do what native apps do.

 

[The Phazer]

The ability to grab the scrollbar on the right side of the screen (like a real computer) could be very helpful for long webpages. Right now, it can take 20 seconds to scroll down to the bottom of a webpage. BUT THAT WOULD CONSUME VALUABLE SCREEN SPACE. What would be much better (take our your iPhone right now and test this to see what I'm talking about) is when you are at the top or middle of a webpage and you want to scroll down or up, if you flick REALLY FAST, it should scroll really far. Right now it slows down way to soon if you flick REALLY FAST.

Dear god yes. I've wanted some kind of auto scroll-to-bottom gesture for a long time.

Phazer

 

[heisetax]

Native apps are best.

Here here. Me too.

I really don't get this web stuff.

So, ever since the iPhone came out, people were waiting for native apps. Now they are here, people want more advanced web apps?

How can the web ever be as good or fast as a natively compiled and run application and why would you want it? What advantages does it have?

I'm yet to be convinced that Google's "everything's a web browser" vision will ever be totally true. I have yet to see any web application - on any platform - be without annoying lag of some description or without being somehow constrained by the 'one-size-fits-all' constraints of the web. That includes Google's own mail interface and - well - the MobileMe interface is just shocking.

Why? Why?

With only AT&T's overloaded &/or lack of 3G network in most of the country, just Edge when available, & little service for iPod Touch & no service for anyone in the rural mountain areas, why would I want to depend on the weaker web based apps on an iPhone/iPod Touch or any other smartphone or device.

So far any web based spreadsheet I've use is too weak. More like Numbers 0.0.5. Just get a unit that has enough storage & watch your work get done faster.

 

[jb510]

Don't believe the hype

Add me to the growing crowd that thinks web apps are NOT the future....

Web apps once were touted as this holy grail where everything one needed could be moved to cloud based web apps accessible from anywhere anytime provided you had a net connection.... This would make sense if people were getting online on other people devices but they're not. People are and will continue to carry their OWN device... Their own laptop, netbook, tablet, iPhone, etc. The reasons for this are many but it is the way things are and will continue to be. Puttin data I'm the cloud is happening via both corporate and personal VPNs as well as generic cloud services (S3, MobileMe), but apps won't. Developers aren't excited about it either since they are finding they need to write a seperate web app for every device which defeats the purpose from thie rend as well, they might as well just code an app for each device.

Witness Apple who put so much faith in the idea that web apps would be the thing to make the iPhone shine... Fail.

I'm not saying pastrykit isn't nice and web apps don't have their niche, they do, but they'll won't be more than a niche for a long long long time, perhaps an eternity. Whch is just fine with me.

 

[synth3tik]

Just what AT&T wants, yet even higher iphone data usage.

 

[Small White Car]

How can the web ever be as good or fast as a natively compiled and run application and why would you want it? What advantages does it have?

It skips around the app-store approval process.

If you want to make an app that Apple doesn't like this stuff really matters to you.

Also, it also allows instant upgrades. I use the native Dropbox app because yes, it is better than using their web app. But their web app can be updated instantly to fix bugs or add features. It takes weeks for those change to get to the native app because Apple has to approve them.

So that's an advantage the web-dropbox users have over me.

Is that a huge problem? Not really. Certainly not when the web app feels like it's 50% the speed of the native one. But with stuff like this I could eventually see a Dropbox web app feeling 90% as good as a native one. And at that point I might consider switching back the other way.

So no, it's not better for every app but there are a few on my phone where I'd rather have a web app if it could get to that "90% as good" threshold.

 

[DougB541]

Nice I think this is a good idea.

There are plenty of apps that don't need to be native. I mean, look at some of the WebOS apps.....Google Maps has received 3 updates since it came out over there and all 3 were done server side. Meaning i could open up my google maps and boom, i had new features without having to download anything.

I think having a mix of the both is the best solution.

 

[balamw]

Why did I read that as PsystarKit?

Sounds good especially given WebKit's dominance on mobiles.

B

 

[theROZ]

but how does Microsoft mobile fit in?

I cant wait for the fall of Microsoft and their eventually and rightful place of creating desktop mice.

 

[Rojo]

Because they don't like the current App Store situation? Because not all native apps are approved?

By releasing a web app you don't have to go through the whole App Store process, there's no control of content, there's no waiting for review, there's no uncertainty, you don't have to pay a yearly fee to Apple etc.

EXACTLY.
I can't believe there are so many people arguing about native apps being better. Technically, they are, of course. I don't think anyone truly disagrees with that. But web apps will always have 100% freedom that just isn't possible in the App Store environment. While web apps are obviously very limiting in one hand (online connection requirement), on the other hand they open up a whole word of possibilities that we will NEVER see in the App Store.

It's not about ONE platform being better than the other, and being the only thing available for developers. It's about having BOTH options there, and each being as advanced as can be for developers to take advantage of -- so devs can have a choice, and the two worlds can co-exist beautifully.

(And...at the end of the day, there are still some web app versions of things that I prefer using over the native version. For whatever reason, some developers have built inferior native apps. Flickr, for one, is a great example -- I still use the web app over the native one).

 

[mdriftmeyer]

CSS Positioning: Fixed. It's been there for a long time. That Guide block is a DIV/SPAN and it's a fixed block.

 

[aresinferno]

CSS Positioning: Fixed. It's been there for a long time. That Guide block is a DIV/SPAN and it's a fixed block.

Which does not work on the iPhone.

 

[Speedy2]

EXACTLY.
I can't believe there are so many people arguing about native apps being better. Technically, they are, of course. I don't think anyone truly disagrees with that. But web apps will always have 100% freedom that just isn't possible in the App Store environment.

Both approaches have their pros and cons. Right now, the pros of the App Store seem to convince a HELL lot of developers. I can't believe that you can't believe that. Just open your eyes.
Native apps aren't just lightyears ahead in terms of technical possibilities. They also allow for a nice and easy revenue stream into the pockets of the developer. Try that with a web app.

The alleged "freedom" of web apps is also rather theoretical, since you can't do a fraction of things you could do with a native app. In your case, "freedom" is a mere ideology and has nothing to do with what people want (users + developers). You make it sound as if native apps were oh-so-restricted. They are not.

While web apps are obviously very limiting in one hand (online connection requirement), on the other hand they open up a whole word of possibilities that we will NEVER see in the App Store.

Like what? In fact, the very opposite is obviously true. Native apps are the ones giving you possibilities.

It's not just the fanboys who are blinded, it's ideologists of all kind.

 

[theLastBeatle]

Is this what they use to make the main controls stay where they are on the Apple Insider iPhone website? Very elegant solution (Controls fade away when scrolling, but fade in, adhered to bottom of screen when you stop scrolling.)

let me star by saying I respect your opinion.

mine however, is that the appleinsider iPhone site is clunky and a horrible mistake. I just can't see how a developer could see that "dissapearing tool bar" to be a clever idea. every time I'm focused in reading an article, I get to a point where I need to scroll and the interface dissappears then reappears, WHY? it's annoying reading a long article. I don't want to have to watch the interface flash on and off just because I'm scrolling. and how does that benefit me anyway? think about it, it takes up more room on the screen when your reading and it gives you more room while scrolling by dissappearing. that's exactly the opposite of what would be useful.

 

[MacFly123]

Here here. Me too.

I really don't get this web stuff.

So, ever since the iPhone came out, people were waiting for native apps. Now they are here, people want more advanced web apps?

How can the web ever be as good or fast as a natively compiled and run application and why would you want it? What advantages does it have?

I'm yet to be convinced that Google's "everything's a web browser" vision will ever be totally true. I have yet to see any web application - on any platform - be without annoying lag of some description or without being somehow constrained by the 'one-size-fits-all' constraints of the web. That includes Google's own mail interface and - well - the MobileMe interface is just shocking.

Why? Why?

People do NOT want them lol. You are right!

The only thing I can think of is that these huge corporations like Google just want people to be pressured into always being online so they have you connected and can gather data from you. Doesn't get me excited at all. In fact quite the opposite!

 

[corygreenwell]

Is this basically what has happened with Google Wave? When you install it on the home screen, it loses the search bar and seems like it's more native to the phone than running in Safari and it doesn't open safari when you click into it (or doesn't appear to at least)

 

[Rojo]

Both approaches have their pros and cons. Right now, the pros of the App Store seem to convince a HELL lot of developers. I can't believe that you can't believe that. Just open your eyes.
Native apps aren't just lightyears ahead in terms of technical possibilities. They also allow for a nice and easy revenue stream into the pockets of the developer. Try that with a web app.

I'm not denying that.
I'm agreeing with you about native apps! Heck, I've downloaded over 200 apps from the App Store on my phone, but have only 2 or 3 apps of which could be considered web apps. 99% of the time I would rather have a native app, and continually replace web apps with native ones when they become available (except Flickr - argh, it sucks!).

Please don't confuse me for some "Rah! Rah! Web apps all the way!" person. I'm not trying to promote web apps as something superior to native apps. They are clearly not. I just don't have anything AGAINST web apps either (while others in this thread clearly DO) -- and I can see why, in some rare cases, some developers might actually choose (or need) to do a web app over a native app. And in those special cases, I think it's a good thing if web app capabilities are being continually advanced. NO ONE'S TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM NATIVE APPS HERE. But there's no harm in advancing web apps too, if they can.

Like you yourself said, both approaches have pros and cons. As long as there's even ONE con with native apps, then there will always be some need for web apps too.

Like what? In fact, the very opposite is obviously true. Native apps are the ones giving you possibilities.

It's not just the fanboys who are blinded, it's ideologists of all kind.

Geez, who's the blinded fanboy here? If you honestly can't see SOME cases where a developer might need to make a web app over a native app, you are clearly ignoring the obvious, and refusing to think outside your comfort bubble. Like I said, I myself prefer native apps almost ALL of the time. But I can look beyond my own needs/wants and actually consider other people's needs too. It's really not that hard to understand...

 

[xraydoc]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7D11 Safari/528.16)

This is what AI have: iphone.appleinsider.com but somewhat similar?

One of the best iPhone-specific mobile sites/apps.
Toodledo, an on-line To Do list manager, also has a nice iPhone-specific mobile web app.

 

[CommodityFetish]

Two Words: Google Voice

That's one big reason why I'm glad there are web apps with user interfaces that are catching up to those of native apps. When apple bans an app they don't want to compete with on a level playing field, the web app is right there where you need it. And it's getting harder to tell the difference between the two.

And the concern about needing to be connected to the internet to run web apps will soon be a non-starter. With HTML5 you have local storage, and it works just the same without an internet connection. If anyone watched the video they would see this point being made.

I've got nothing against native apps, and I don't understand why people are so worked up over defending them, aside from their affective allegiance to apple.

(But look where apple is headed with iTunes, for example...)

 

[mdriftmeyer]

I'm not denying that.
I'm agreeing with you about native apps! Heck, I've downloaded over 200 apps from the App Store on my phone, but have only 2 or 3 apps of which could be considered web apps. 99% of the time I would rather have a native app, and continually replace web apps with native ones when they become available (except Flickr - argh, it sucks!).

Please don't confuse me for some "Rah! Rah! Web apps all the way!" person. I'm not trying to promote web apps as something superior to native apps. They are clearly not. I just don't have anything AGAINST web apps either (while others in this thread clearly DO) -- and I can see why, in some rare cases, some developers might actually choose (or need) to do a web app over a native app. And in those special cases, I think it's a good thing if web app capabilities are being continually advanced. NO ONE'S TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM NATIVE APPS HERE. But there's no harm in advancing web apps too, if they can.

Like you yourself said, both approaches have pros and cons. As long as there's even ONE con with native apps, then there will always be some need for web apps too.



Geez, who's the blinded fanboy here? If you honestly can't see SOME cases where a developer might need to make a web app over a native app, you are clearly ignoring the obvious, and refusing to think outside your comfort bubble. Like I said, I myself prefer native apps almost ALL of the time. But I can look beyond my own needs/wants and actually consider other people's needs too. It's really not that hard to understand...

Webapps aren't the wave of the future for Apple.

They will be leveraged services for disparate clients outside of native cocoa apps.

 

[joejoejoe]

I've been hoping for something like this. It would make web apps I use like the gmail web app so much more useful.

Any idea on why more developers (like google) don't use this?

What are other websites besides the user guide and showtime that use it?