Apple LC 475 screen white w/ cursor

Discussion in 'Apple Collectors' started by benpete420, Jun 19, 2014.

  1. benpete420 macrumors newbie

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    #1
    So, at first the screen was not even turning on. Then, I replaced the battery in my LC 475 and the screen turned on with the cursor. Nothing else. No ideas on what to do.
     
  2. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #3
    What sounds do you hear when you turn it on? If you unplug the fan, that might help to identify sounds. Have you popped the case open to see what's inside? A pic might help.
     
  3. benpete420 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #4
    Wiping the PRAM doesn't work

    Wiping the PRAM made it reboot, but it went back to the screen. I don't know what to do. It sounds like everything is working, but I think it might be a hard drive problem. The old owner said that once the computer made a thumping noise and nothing turned on.
     
  4. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #5
    The hard drive may be missing or "not ready". If you leave it on, do you eventually get a floppy icon with a flashing question mark? It may take a minute or two.

    Again, identifying the sounds made by JUST the hard drive, and a picture of the machine with the top off, may be helpful.
     
  5. benpete420 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #6
    HardDrive

    I left it on for 3 hours once, and still nothing. The hard drive is making sounds such as a whirring noise.
     
  6. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #7
    OK, remove the PRAM battery, the extra RAM AND VRAM module. Disconnect the power supply cable from the motherboard and short the PRAM battery terminals on the motherboard overnight (aluminum foil will work).

    In the morning, remove the PRAM battery terminal shorting device, disconnect the hard drive power and data cables, disconnect the floppy drive cable and attach the power supply cable and the monitor (do not refit anything else including mouse and keyboard) and power on.

    You SHOULD eventually see the floppy disk icon after a minute or two. If you don't then I'd suspect leaked capacitors on the motherboard.

    The reasons for the above are experience with multiple cases of the PRAM settings getting corrupted when an old battery goes flat, especially on the LC475. The procedure guarantees eliminating that as a cause. Removing other modules takes the machine down to as basic a configuration as possible to verify that the floppy disc icon with question mark DOES eventually show up, which verifies that initial POST and bootstrap is working.
     
  7. benpete420 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #8
    Battery Question

    Is that the lithium battery?
    Or can you show me a diagram of where it is.
     
  8. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #9
    Yup. That's the one. 3.6 Volt half AA Lithium. (Half AA because it's half the length of a standard AA size battery).
     
  9. benpete420 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #10
    Last question (Maybe)

    So how do you short things? Sorry, just never had a computer break on me before... like that...:eek:
     
  10. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #11
    The battery holder has a metal piece on each end. You need to get something also metal to connect those two ends together. A piece of scrunched up aluminum foil will do the trick. Just make sure it is in contact with both metal pieces at each end of the battery holder.

    Try making a 5mm thick piece a little longer than the battery holder, then wrap each end of the foil over each metal piece on each end.

    Does that make sense?
     
  11. benpete420 thread starter macrumors newbie

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  12. benpete420 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #13
    Almost ready to try it out.

    Ok, before I try it out, I have 3 more questions...

    1. Will I ever connect all of the cables back?
    2. What happens if it is a capacitor leak?
    3. Could it be a hard drive problem?

    Thanks!
     
  13. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #14
    1. Not for this test. If it works, one at a time will reveal any other problems. If you replace them all at once and it doesn't work, you won't know which caused the problem.

    2. Then you'd need to remove them, clean the board, repair tracks if necessary, and fit new caps.

    3. Yes, it could. But it's a process of elimination.
     
  14. benpete420 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #15
    Earlier Post

    Though I said in an earlier post that I already replaced the battery and that got me to the white screen w/ a cursor.
     
  15. mcdermd, Jun 26, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014

    mcdermd macrumors regular

    mcdermd

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    #16
    ^ This.

    My guess is a nearly failed hard drive. The computer sees it but can't read it so it's not giving up. I also second the next suggestion on checking the capacitors. At this age, I can only guess they are dead. Check out http://maccaps.com/MacCaps/Capacitor_Reference/Entries/1993/10/21_Macintosh_LC_475.html for some cap information. He also has a page on the LC power supplies which have a handful of caps that go bad.
     
  16. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #17
    Yes, I did read that.

    We're going thru a process of elimination.

    I'm assuming that you still had the same result, with the HD & floppy disconnected?
     
  17. havokalien macrumors 6502a

    havokalien

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    #18
    capacitors

    I guess I will have to beat the dead horse, capacitors need replaced. They are or have leaked, they are bad, the problems are from that. LC = Low Cost plus twenty years of use and age is past their lifespan. If you have a soldering iron and some time you can get it done pretty easy.
     
  18. ormie macrumors regular

    ormie

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    #19
    My pals LC475 gets as far as the floppy logo with the ? Next to it but that's as far as he gets. Can you help me advise him what to do next please.
     
  19. benpete420 thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #20
    Capacitors

    I think it might be the capacitors, because the hard drive still spins fine. Everything is working and that is why I think it is the capacitors. Am i right?
     
  20. ApplemanY macrumors newbie

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    #21
    Guys

    Interesting that several of us are getting old LC475s out and finding they dont wabt to startup as they did! Do they have hormones?

    Anyway I am in there too - my LC475 power switch was not working but was far from clean. I removed the power supply and cleaned the switch with Isopropyl put it back and bingo it started the machine up, fan runs etc BUT....

    I got the usual start up Bong followed by two sets of tones.

    I have been there with PRAM Batteries on other macs before so I removed the battery and left it out overnight - I didnt short it out yet! I ordered a ne battery from Amazon uk.

    Tried again this morning and with the same result..(BONG diddle diddlle diddle up and diddle diddle down again tones!) except this time I did the old engineers test (stick- one end to ear and other end to HDD) and nothing seems to be moving in there.

    My first attention to the problem was following trying to link the LC475 to an Apple Multi Scan 15 Display (previously found to (sort of) work to my old PB 1400c). The Screen stayed black, the orange light showed and nothing showed on screen - the little green lights inder the front cover were seen to be illuminating consecutivel. I have acquired the right cables and had an adaptor.

    I have concluded the PRAM Battery needed replacing and that until I have the new one in and can try another reboot the screen problem may be casued by the lack of working PRAM.

    Q1. Could the PRAM battery effect the HDD startup? Is there any other way of testing the HDD
    Q2. I tried a floppy in the drive - nothing happened - paperclipped it out again.
    Q3. Recapping: the MacCap guy has a very effective operation going in the US but how can you see if the caps are defective have 'leaked' and is there anyone offering a similar service in UK?
    Q4. Where does anyone get old computer bits in UK? Bay is not surely the only source?

    Sorry for the extended questions but I have found several 'Pals' who have or had similar problems with LC475s in several different sites and no one seems to have pulled them together yet...unless you know better in which case please share!?

    Happy New Year (2015)

    Colin

    Did those of you loveley fellows get oyur LC475s going again and what did you have to replace to get it going?
     
  21. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #22
    I suspect you have TWO problems there.

    First the odd chimes are actually a POST error chime.

    http://froods.ca/~dschaub/Files/Crash/cq.aiff
    taken from the Quadra crash sound here:
    http://froods.ca/~dschaub/readme.html

    It's usually (on a working machine) a memory error. If any extra memory is installed (72Pin SIMM), remove it and try again. If that doesn't work there are a few caps near the SIMM socket that can leak and corrode/etch tracks completely through.

    As for how to spot them, hold the board in a good light and move it around to reflect light around the capacitors. if you can see a wet/glossy area around them, that's the leaked electrolyte. The other clue is that the solder joins look black and/or some of the tracks have black areas or spots on them.

    Second, the hard drive. It's probably suffering from a phenomena called Stiction. The original lubricant on the metal platters allows the heads to slip on the surface as the drive tries to initially spin up. (Once the platters are up to speed, the airflow over the heads makes them skate mere microns above the platters). Replacement is probably the only option - this is getting difficult and in some cases expensive. There are a few threads here about 'stiction', a quick search with that keyword in the Collectors sub-forum might help a little.

    Can the battery stop the HD spin-up ? No. To be certain, unplug the 50pin data/interface cable leaving the 4pin power cable attached and power the computer on. It should spin up by itself, so long as +12volt and +5v are getting to the drive. (red wire +5v, yellow wire +12v). A multimeter helps here.
     
  22. ApplemanY macrumors newbie

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    #23
    LC475 probs....

    Thanks MacTech

    First the odd chimes - exactly right! The second (didle idle) is that one chime. So that narrows down the problem but doesnt the absence of a working PRAM battery create that set of sounds anyway? If we set that aside first... wont it make the cause of any others easier to isolate....?

    I have no PRAM battery in and the screen is no longer connected (nor the SCSI ext HDD, nor the speaker, keyboard etc.) and I still get the same sounds. (after the attached photo!)

    The two banks of SIMMs were added and worked fine until we put it away.... n years back... but I will remove them and try again... after the new battery arrives? Same for the VRAM, do you suggest?

    So far as the Caps are concerned I have our US MI friends chart and none seem to have leakages or fluid around their bases and all look fine. (photo supports?) I have a long handled paintbrush with long staple hairs and dusting around their bases the dust comes away and all is dry. Is this a fair test? I have not yet dared to remove the MB and assume thats the only way to look for tracking or blackened solder joins....

    On the HDD point... if it is stuck.... it is obviously not going to help and I will remove it and start to warm it, ready with the heavy handled screew driver as you suggest ;-) later.

    I dont want to spend £s on a new Disk until I know the LC475 is going to work!

    My aim is to get it to a point where it can act as my Desktop (replacing a PISMO). If it will cope I will look to up the processor and the VRAM and RAM. I may also need to find a more recent screen - the old white domed iMac (still in the garage) would have been ideal but Im not sure its practical....

    Thanks for your expert advice!

    Colin
    Cambs UK
     

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  23. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #24
    The whole sequence of chimes (in he link) is the error chime. You may hear the startup chime and THEN the error chime.

    Removing the PRAM battery will not affect the machine, except for the realtime clock and some settings (cursor blink rate, highlight colour etc). The machine will happily power up and boot the OS without a PRAM Battery. And yes, Remove the RAM (there is 4MB onboard) but leave the VRAM - sadly, it needs TWO VRAM SIMMs at a time.

    The black spots would be visible from the top, so there isn't really a need to remove the board. I'd be surprised if the caps weren't bad/leaking - BUT if they're not, it's a great opportunity to replace them BEFORE they leak. I can't tell from the photo you attached. Need some good (in focus) close-ups. :)

    EDIT to add - if they're NOT leaking yet, try heating the caps with a hairdryer for a minute or two, then turn the machine on. When these caps begin to fail, warming them makes them work again. It's the old Sony Service, Camcorder diagnosis trick.

    I can see you've read up on stiction. As for your other comments above, the LC475 is many many processors/MacOS versions behind. The Pismo and iMac G4 (the 'iLamp') would probably serve you better - depending on what you expect to do. It's like a PC-XT with Windows 3.11 to a Pentium3 running Win95-WinXP (or thereabouts). The Pismo still has a floppy drive and will run OS 9.0 thru 10.4 (with upgrades). Of course, you'd need to workout what works and what doesn't - again, it's down to what you expect to do with your 'restored' Mac.
     
  24. ApplemanY macrumors newbie

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    #25
    Hi again Mactech,

    Yes, I read before I asked and saw some of your earlier advice, followed some too! ;-)

    PROGRESS today: I removed the HDD and stuffed the System 7 HDD floppy disk Uno in the drive and lo and behold we had a boot up!

    Not only a boot up (single tone!) but my MS 15 Display screen came alive too!

    So I turned everything off, put the least used up PRAM Battery back in, connected up an external SCSI HDD, changed its ID to 0 (hoping the Mac would recognise it) and started it, followed by rebooting from the floppy..... I had hoped I could install OS on the Ext HDD but sadly it was not visible amongst the onscreen options.

    So I have put the lid back on and put the screen back on top.

    Now the switch is playing me up again!

    Anyway I know the screen works, the battery is probably only just alive so a new one ought to give us a regular boot up and with luck, warmth and a heavy ha... er ... screwdriver we might be in business.

    Your thoughts?

    Just so you are aware - I have never had or had to use a PC...of any kind! I bought my A][ Europlus in 1977 and have had 15 since! I now have a Mac Book Pro 15 with R/D and I love it but there are times and reasons why I would like to have a reliable Desktop again. I mentioned I have a number of Macs of various ages all put in to storage in our Garage or in the loft in 2000 when we moved in. So I have a modern tool and I love it (I love 10.10 tooas does my wife who has an iMac upstairs! My reasons for trying to get the older uns working is using the grey matteras well as flexibility. I am not really looking to sell any of them but if I was to no one would be interested if tey were noit working. I also read that HDDs and Memory as well as processor upgrades have been effected that were unconceivable when the Apples or Macs were out and in use first, so it would be nice to see what we can do with some of the older machines to bring them a bit more up to date than a few weeks ago I realised was possible.... the problem is that in UK, I dont know how it is in Oz, there are no really reasonable sources for the bits we might want - in US it sounds like there is a Mac recycling store on every corner... I never see them when I am there :-(

    So thanks to you, some progress made today. I reverse the system and try the HDD back in the Mac with power only at first in the morning.

    ...unless you have any other thoughts!?

    Colin
     

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