Apple LCD Updates

[zer0army]

I am a 'serious' graphic designer and I feel I need to make a point here. Several people have commented on us serious designers avoiding flat displays because of colour accuracy. This is simply untrue. Various ads and web sites tell us that there are all sorts of clever gizmos and software that will match the colour on screen with printed output. Ok confession time......NONE OF THEM EVEN COME CLOSE TO WORKING! There said it. I, and every pro I know works 'colour blind' on whatever montior is at hand. We check our colours with pantone calibrated print proofs off the office laser. We decide which colours to use with a pantone swatchbook, never ever ever with one we mixed up on screen. That is suicide! You show a client a proof on screen and he agrees to it, then send it off to the printers, you can bet your bottom dollar you will get a reject along with a comment along the lines of "Hey! That's not what it looked like on screen!" I know one designer who had to swallow the cost of 3 new power macs for making this mistake. Whole print run rejected.

The calibrators can only accurately match on part of the spectrum at the expense of another part. Usually you end up with very yellow whites if you fine tune it to match most colours. Most of us gave up on that and trust the printed output. Screens and printers use different colour mixing physics. (additive and subtractive) any attempt to make one pretend it is the other will have limits. Beware!

Great post, I'm glad somebody said it. The designers still holding onto their CRT's for other reasons besides cost are the same ones that are still running OS 9 and Quark 4.1.

OS X, InDesign and 23'' Cinema Displays are what 'serious' designers should be using

 

[Grimace]

Pro/Consumer Monitor Split??

What if Apple introduced a consumer-grade monitor series at 15" and 17" - maybe even a 20". That could be nice with a new headless iMac.

 

[sfwalter]

Old 20" On EBay

It's iinteresting to note there are anumber of the old 20" cinema displays on ebay that aren't going as high as they use to. I bet the sellers are trying to off load them as soon as possible, since after Monday their value will head south.

 

[jocknerd]

Wow - I'm surprised that the price drops are not more significant...

Umm, this is Apple we're talking about.

 

[Rustus Maximus]

Well when all those "serious graphic designers" go blind after using CRT's all day, I'll take all their jobs.

// narco

Who...who said that??

 

[steveh]

Not just a little problem...it's a huge problem, and it sounds too retarded to comprehend. Like PC people can't understand the prices already!

Apple may have no choice in the matter; the LCD panel maker may be phasing it out of production. Happens all the time.

 

[steveh]

By dropping displays under 20", Apple is widening the divide between the professional and the consumer. In other words, Apple is prodding the "prosumer," the neutral-buyer, to get out of Switzerland and pick a team: iMac or PowerMac.

Nonsense. Third-party monitors will work with the current G5s.

This just means that Apple doesn't have to wade into the low-margin commodity fight, monitor-wise.

 

[xDANx]

Honestly, I don't think that an LCD display is any easier on the eyes than a good CRT.

Does anyone have any evidence for this?

You may have had a bad experience with one of the CRTs that IS hard on the eyes.

In any case, staring at a flourescent light all day (i.e. an LCD monitor) cannot be healthy by any account...

a CRT display is an electron gun pointed straight at your head. it's the radiation that makes the difference (or its lack thereof with LCDs).

 

[plastree]

In the Pantone Swatch realm I would agree with you 100% I would never pick a flat color from screen. Photography is waaaay different. A properly calibrated monitor with THE BEST POSSIBLE color management setup is ABSOLUTELY essential. I don't have the option of scanning, printing, adjusting, printing, adjusting, print, adjust... etc etc. There isn't the time nor the money to do that, and I can do all of my color adjusting and have 97% predictable output based off of screen...once again this is purely in the photography realm.

"calibrated office proofs"
How many of you graphic designers use US SWOP ver2 as your working CMYK profile? Now, How many knew that it wasn't even calibrated for a specific workflow, but is just merely an average of multiple (i forget how many) printers throughout the world.



Hey Copernicus,
Break out of your box and stop living in CMYK only output, I almost feel sorry having such a limited amount of color spectrum on your end.

Please see THIS to learn a little more about RGB output... and yes, you did read that correctly... 36-bit 68 billion colors.

Photoshop is only for "retouching and enhancing" ? I sure hope you lump color correcting in to "enhancing" for your customers sakes. Unless they like un-color corrected images. I also know A TON of illustrators that would be mighting mad hearing that Photoshop isn't an illustration tool either... for a lot of things its quite essential.

This discussion was about "serious graphic designers", not pre-press photo re-toucher/color correctors, or whatever the proper term is, or Photoshop illustrators. So your point about needing a CRT to best predict digital photo output to a Durst Lambda is irrelevant. Pre-press is not graphic design, either. There is a blurry line between the two fields, but they are discreet nonetheless.

I work on an LCD monitor because CRT's are blurry, have inferior contrast, and they make my ears ring. My print output consists of Pantone colors and CMYK, which applies to the overwhelming majority of graphic designers out there. Other printing methods, such as HEX, are too expensive for most jobs, and that Ferrari bad-boy and others like it wouldn't work too well for a 10,000 unit print job. For graphic design work, my LCD serves me better than any CRT ever could.

 

[joemama]

Having argued against CRT, I find it funny, if you will, I am typing here looking at my 21" CRT monitor!

My decision is solely based on price. Which I thik is what this forum is generally about, not who's a "real" designer.

All in all, Apple is in the right direction by releasing new models.

 

[dontmatter]

I really don't think the prices are that outrageos- they're new moniters, probably imporved in brightness, contrast, color accuracy, etc, and they have 300-500 dollar price drops, for the same size. Where is this bad? You know there will be lots of demand, and once that drops off, they'll cut the prices a bit more.

and the 30 inch. how can you complain about the price on that!!!! it's 30 inches!!!!!!!!! think about how enormous that is! No, it's not particularly usable, and it's not particularly worth the price, but the price if there because it's totally cutting edge, because there is no competition. It's not going to sell piles, but that's not the point.

The only complaint that's legit, in my opinion, is that 20 inches and one grand is an excessive starting point. it's just a heck of a lot of real estate for most uses, and the price is equally beyond what's neccessary. If people don't need that much space, they shouldn't be forced into buying it at such costs.

 

[sambo.]

my two cents.....

on the whole colourspace/ judging colour off a screen etc thing.

i run a small (16 pages once a week, three pages colour, tabloid) newspaper.

I do all the photoshop pre-press work and all the graphics work (currently using Photoshop 5, Illustrator 7, Pagemaker 6.5 on a celeron 500 running Windoesn't '98). i go by the screen and whats on the info pallett. a lot of comes from knowing the press and the printer i use. i get great results without proofing anything but the ads for clients to approve.

granted, if i was printing at high res on gloss paper, or didn't have the luxury of using the same press for all my output, the proofig would enter the equation, i would be proofing like mad.

oh yeah - i'm from a photographic background. photoshop is a pixel editor and illustrator is a vector graphics program as we all know. they both have strengths and weaknesses and quirks. one of the major quirks of photoshop, that designers may not be fully aware of, is the "built-in softness factor" on all brushes and "hard edges". it's only a pixel or two, but it really makes a mess of text, especially when saving as a jpeg. it was put there by Adobe after a lot of photographers whinged about needing it. as a photographer, i'm glad it was added. as a designer, i don't care, i use illustrator for vector work. which is what i'm getting at. both PhotoShop and Illustrator are vital to any design/publishing house. thankfully they work very well together so it is possible to avoid any particularly nasty pitfalls, but please, photoshop for pixel editing, illustrator for vector work. if the two must be combined, thats what indesign/quark or in my currently painful case, pagemaker, is for.......

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

By dropping displays under 20", Apple is widening the divide between the professional and the consumer. In other words, Apple is prodding the "prosumer," the neutral-buyer, to get out of Switzerland and pick a team: iMac or PowerMac.

Maybe this plays into Apple's hand.

IF the G5 iMac's do come out next week, maybe we will see them with a single 2.0 processor at the 17" and 10" as an option. Sort of bridging the consumer and pro group.

 

[sinisterdesign]

No, I'm not kidding.

The current 20" display price of $1299 was set 18 months ago. Since then the technology has become cheaper and LCD prices have dropped quite a bit.

Although this newer model will obviously sport some improvements over the older ones, I think the price should be a least another $100 less for the 20" model than the rumor states, especially if this display will be the entry model.

dude, $300 off $1300 is a pretty sizable price drop (23%?). LCDs haven't dropped 40-50% in price in the past year & a half. check some current LCD prices and you'll see that's right on track.

i was the first person i knew to get the Cinema Display when it came out a few years ago. i used my 25% Apple employee discount on my way out the door, but that was 25% off $4000. now a few years later we're looking at...well, MUCH more real estate (someone do the math for me btw a 22" diagonal 16:9 and a 30" 16:9 screen size, i suck @ math) for $3000. if i wasn't buying a loft, i would certainly consider upgrading my current CD.

a good 30" LCD TV is still about $3k and i feel certain the resolution isn't going to match. yeah, it's a lot of $$$, but that's the price you pay for being on the bleeding edge of technology (oh, and being an Apple fan).

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Having argued against CRT, I find it funny, if you will, I am typing here looking at my 21" CRT monitor!

My decision is solely based on price. Which I thik is what this forum is generally about, not who's a "real" designer.

All in all, Apple is in the right direction by releasing new models.

I think perspectives change. About a 1 1/ ago i got the Mistu SB70. It was a sharp monitor. I say was, since then I bought a PB 12" and I know now what sharp is. That is why a new 17" at the $599 to $699 range is a disappointment according the AppleInsider rumors.

Also there is the factor that I have not had to calibrate my PB the same way I did when I was on Windows. The only issue I have had is in the area of gamma (which is a whole different discussion).

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

dude, $300 off $1300 is a pretty sizable price drop (23%?). LCDs haven't dropped 40-50% in price in the past year & a half. check some current LCD prices and you'll see that's right on track.

i was the first person i knew to get the Cinema Display when it came out a few years ago. i used my 25% Apple employee discount on my way out the door, but that was 25% off $4000. now a few years later we're looking at...well, MUCH more real estate (someone do the math for me btw a 22" diagonal 16:9 and a 30" 16:9 screen size, i suck @ math) for $3000. if i wasn't buying a loft, i would certainly consider upgrading my current CD.

a good 30" LCD TV is still about $3k and i feel certain the resolution isn't going to match. yeah, it's a lot of $$$, but that's the price you pay for being on the bleeding edge of technology (oh, and being an Apple fan).

There are many of us that would love to see a 17" in the $499 to $599 with the update. I know that I could get the current 17", but it is old in terms of the current tech. And the design is so G4 PM.

 

[rendezvouscp]

So, lets hear it for a 30" Powerbook, eh? That ought to be enough space to cool those G5 spaceheaters.

Dang, that thing would be enormous.

Introducing the 20, 23, and 30 inch PB G5's. The ultimate desktop replacement.

Featuring a new high quality display and a 1" thick body, these PB's can replace any current desktop. Not only that, but with an external keyboard and mouse, these PB's can also improve your current setup. The 8 fans have been placed properly to allow the PB to actually levitate up to 3 inches off the ground when you want. So, you could easily use these PB's as extra screens too. Available in two years.
–Chase

 

[rendezvouscp]

Maybe this plays into Apple's hand.

IF the G5 iMac's do come out next week, maybe we will see them with a single 2.0 processor at the 17" and 10" as an option. Sort of bridging the consumer and pro group.

You meant 20", right? Please say you meant 20"...
–Chase

 

[Doctor Q]

If they can't make money selling a low-end LCD with a low-end price, Apple might still have reason to do so. Why? Because even if they only break even, they would keep buyers "in the fold", and avoid giving people the impression that prosumers and professionals buy Apple displays but consumers and students don't. Because we all know that consumers and students turn into those prosumers and professionals, and Apple shouldn't want them having the mindset (and habit) of buying their displays elsewhere.

Maybe that's why Apple still sells third-party CRT monitors in the Apple Store.

 

[Lepton]

Here are the exact ones from TS...

I don't like the idea of connectors coming out the back. I would like connectors on the bottom or side edge so you can HANG THEM ON A WALL! These would make great TV monitors as well as computer monitors.

 

[rendezvouscp]

I don't like the idea of connectors coming out the back. I would like connectors on the bottom or side edge so you can HANG THEM ON A WALL! These would make great TV monitors as well as computer monitors.

It's a cleaner design if the connector comes out of the back. What if they put it on the right side? Then all of the people with computers on the left side (like me) would be at least a bit upset. Also, the connector to your PB or PM bends right now: you can have it go straight up with only about one inch sticking out. If they make it wall mountable, then they can make the display have the same sort of design, only straight up and down capable. That way, it is clean, efficient, and flexible (in mounting terms).
–Chase

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

You meant 20", right? Please say you meant 20"...
–Chase

LOL, what you don't want an imac with a 10" screen? Sony has the Z series notebook with a 10" screen

BTW, yes I did mean 20". Need to do better proof reading. Do spell check for the most part now

 

[MacinDoc]

Apple Display prices

These prices sound great, actually. But there is NO WAY IN HELL that Apple will sell the 23" for 1499 or 1599. Maybe 1699, but probably 1799. Which would still be fine.

Disclaimer: All of the below calculations are APPROXIMATE and without the benefit of a calculator...

20 inch widescreen display = approx 180 square inches
23 inch widescreen = approx 220 square inches (about 20% more pixels)
30 inch widescreen = approx 390 square inches (about 90% more pixels than the 23 inch)

So, if Apple sells the 20 inch for $999 and the 30 inch for $2999, then any more than $1499 for the 23 inch would be a rip-off compared to the other 2 models.

 

[JFreak]

Honestly, I don't think that an LCD display is any easier on the eyes than a good CRT.

Does anyone have any evidence for this?

You may have had a bad experience with one of the CRTs that IS hard on the eyes.

In any case, staring at a flourescent light all day (i.e. an LCD monitor) cannot be healthy by any account...

my doctor has the opinion that if i look a crt monitor 8 hours a day, i get constant headaches (and i will even not complain too often), and when i look a lcd display the same 8 hours a day the headaches are rare. plus, after my employer was forced to buy me a lcd monitor, my eyesight has not gotten any worse. with the crt monitors i had to have new stronger eyeglasses eveery year.

i guess this is scientific enough evidence, although statistically i am alone in my example. anyway, i guess there are others who has eyes like me - too sensible to light - and suffers from the same issue.

the difference being the crt image is a "moving target" and lcd pixels stay always on the exactly same spot, and the lcd backlight also puts out more gentle light than the cathode-ray tube.

if you have better eyes than i do, feel free to ruin them if you like. i myself recommend lcd displays for every one of you who still use crt monitors.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

my doctor has the opinion that if i look a crt monitor 8 hours a day, i get constant headaches (and i will even not complain too often), and when i look a lcd display the same 8 hours a day the headaches are rare. plus, after my employer was forced to buy me a lcd monitor, my eyesight has not gotten any worse. with the crt monitors i had to have new stronger eyeglasses eveery year.

i guess this is scientific enough evidence, although statistically i am alone in my example. anyway, i guess there are others who has eyes like me - too sensible to light - and suffers from the same issue.

the difference being the crt image is a "moving target" and lcd pixels stay always on the exactly same spot, and the lcd backlight also puts out more gentle light than the cathode-ray tube.

if you have better eyes than i do, feel free to ruin them if you like. i myself recommend lcd displays for every one of you who still use crt monitors.

Sound to me like you had a crappy CRT.

I've been using the same Dell 19" CRT's (dual monitor setup) with flat-front trinitron tubes for almost 3 years and don't see any "moving target" issues.