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Stephen.R

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chucker23n1

macrumors G3
Dec 7, 2014
8,599
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Did you hear about Gamestop ????????
The average Joe used the same rules as Wallstreet to play their game against them and Wallstreet and the media threw a temper tantrum and shut them all down.
And that's… what? An example of how sometimes, someone from the middle class can become a millionaire?

I don't see how this is relevant to crypto"currency". I'm guessing you're making a play at "equality" here, but… this was decidedly not that. It made very few people a lot richer, a few rich people slightly poorer, didn't affect most people at all, and has probably bankrupted a few people who weren't careful.
 
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ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
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And that's… what? An example of how sometimes, someone from the middle class can become a millionaire?

I don't see how this is relevant to crypto"currency". I'm guessing you're making a play at "equality" here, but… this was decidedly not that. It made very few people a lot richer, a few rich people slightly poorer, didn't affect most people at all, and has probably bankrupted a few people who weren't careful.

It’s relevant only in the sense that the average idiot investor on the internet doesn’t realize there are things called ‘pump and dump’ groups who organize and sell their services to hedge funds and corporations and crypto start ups. They make something fo viral, get the idiot investors interested, they see ‘number only go up Apes we are stronk hodl to the moon’…

….and then the dump comes and all these world changing rebel idiots lose their money to the scammers and the rich people who hired them.
 

31 Flavas

macrumors 6502a
Jun 4, 2011
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This system is much less safe for the average person than putting their money in the bank. There are stories of people that have Bitcoin on encrypted hard drives that they forgot the password to and they are just plain out of luck.
You know why that's a good thing though, right? It also means, not even the most skillful adversary can steal or assign that property to themselves or anyone else. Whether that is a government or an individual actor.

You want governmental elections where you can be 100% absolutely sure that cast votes are not tampered or altered? That only individuals can vote for themselves and that no one else can vote for anyone else? That would be using crypto technology. The likes of which Bitcoin uses.

You want a website or a service where the government *cannot* take control, censor, or shutdown because of your own beliefs or dirty laundry you air about them? Then you'll want a crypto based patform which, guess what, runs on the one thing you can't shutdown which is the Internet.

For sure, you can limit access to the internet - A government could be oppressive and try to ban all access to computers or mobile phones, or force internet providers to filter, block, limit content and service to ordinary people. But, the internet is beyond the point where you can shut it down gobally. With Space X and/or traditional satellite internet providing signal - the whole of the world save maybe the polar areas have signal access.

So decentralize a service, like the websites (or money), and you now have a platform that can't be shutdown, taken over, or censored. And since it's on the internet - you can access it anywhere you can get internet service.

Does that mean, that, yea ... people are going to have to figure out how to keep track of their "keys"? Absolutely.

This will get better over time. The internet was a highly technical, very confusing, and expensive proposition back in the day. But, now it's ubiquitous and relatively easy to use.

It’s like carrying a huge wad of cash and hoping you don’t lose it or get robbed. If somebody hacks your bank account, you have recourse with the bank who can fix the problem and also insurance if the bank fails. If you have Bitcoin on a laptop that is stolen, you are screwed.
You can let someone rob you of your "wallet" or "ledger" or "laptop" - because unless they have the key they can't access anything in it. And if you aren't aware, you can just get a new one, set it up with your "key", and have access to your funds again. I'm sure that's a bit confusing, but it'll make sense over time. Crypto is sparely understood well, right now.

If the bank gets robbed, sure, the bank has insurance or the government will guarantee your balance. But, that just can't happen with bitcoin as you pointed out. Where as, the US Government, can very much force the bank to freeze your funds or confiscate them.

It’s also a great currency for criminals.

If it's so great for criminals ... why does the article you linked to start out with:

"Although cryptocurrency can be used for illicit activity, the overall impact of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies on money laundering and other crimes is sparse in comparison to cash transactions.

As of 2019, only $829 million in bitcoin has been spent on the dark web1 (a mere 0.5% of all bitcoin transactions.) Since blockchain technology provides a public record of each transaction, exposure to the risk of financial crime in cryptocurrency including bitcoin money laundering is manageable.
"

So 99.5% of bitcoin transactions are ostensibly legitimate? So if physical US dollar cash was worse... should we mandate only bank card, credit card, or e-checks and ban cash? (To manage the risk of cash transactions)

I mean, we should be wary of using giftcards and pre-paid debit cards because they, too, can be a great currency for criminal scammers? Of course, not.

It's like fearmongering that the internet is a haven for criminals and pedophiles.
 
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SuperMatt

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Mar 28, 2002
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You know why that's a good thing though, right? It also means, not even the most skillful adversary can steal or assign that property to themselves or anyone else. Whether that is a government or an individual actor.

You want governmental elections where you can be 100% absolutely sure that cast votes are not tampered or altered? That only individuals can vote for themselves and that no one else can vote for anyone else? That would be using crypto technology. The likes of which Bitcoin uses.

You want a website or a service where the government *cannot* take control, censor, or shutdown because of your own beliefs or dirty laundry you air about them? Then you'll want a crypto based patform which, guess what, runs on the one thing you can't shutdown which is the Internet.

For sure, you can limit access to the internet - A government could be oppressive and try to ban all access to computers or mobile phones, or force internet providers to filter, block, limit content and service to ordinary people. But, the internet is beyond the point where you can shut it down gobally. With Space X and/or traditional satellite internet providing signal - the whole of the world save maybe the polar areas have signal access.

So decentralize a service, like the websites (or money), and you now have a platform that can't be shutdown, taken over, or censored. And since it's on the internet - you can access it anywhere you can get internet service.

Does that mean, that, yea ... people are going to have to figure out how to keep track of their "keys"? Absolutely.

This will get better over time. The internet was a highly technical, very confusing, and expensive proposition back in the day. But, now it's ubiquitous and relatively easy to use.


You can let someone rob you of your "wallet" or "ledger" or "laptop" - because unless they have the key they can't access anything in it. And if you aren't aware, you can just get a new one, set it up with your "key", and have access to your funds again. I'm sure that's a bit confusing, but it'll make sense over time. Crypto is sparely understood well, right now.

If the bank gets robbed, sure, the bank has insurance or the government will guarantee your balance. But, that just can't happen with bitcoin as you pointed out. Where as, the US Government, can very much force the bank to freeze your funds or confiscate them.


If it's so great for criminals ... why does the article you linked to start out with:

"Although cryptocurrency can be used for illicit activity, the overall impact of bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies on money laundering and other crimes is sparse in comparison to cash transactions.

As of 2019, only $829 million in bitcoin has been spent on the dark web1 (a mere 0.5% of all bitcoin transactions.) Since blockchain technology provides a public record of each transaction, exposure to the risk of financial crime in cryptocurrency including bitcoin money laundering is manageable.
"

So 99.5% of bitcoin transactions are ostensibly legitimate? So if physical US dollar cash was worse... should mandate only bank card, credit card, or e-checks and ban cash? (To manage the risk of cash transactions)

I mean, we should be wary of using giftcards and pre-paid debit cards because they, too, can be a great currency for criminal scammers? Of course, not.

It's like fearmongering that the internet is a haven for criminals and pedophiles.
If one is more worried about the US government seizing their assets than about being robbed by a criminal, one is either 1) a criminal or 2) disproportionately worried about an occurrence based on its probability of happening. A law-abiding person is far more likely to be robbed than to have the government seize their assets.

Perhaps in oppressive regimes, Bitcoin is a good alternative; the currencies in such countries are quite volatile to begin with

The point about the “key” and a stolen laptop is that most people store that key on their computer, so if it is lost or stolen… ?‍♂️

As a person who has worked in IT support, people forget their passwords more than they misplace their car keys. There is almost always a way to recover a password for your bank; you can verify your identity, go through a process, etc.. If you lose your Bitcoin key, you are just plain screwed. And the security being through a key is not 100% by a long shot. The top method for cyber attacks, by far, is phishing. A lot of systems are quite technically secure, but they cannot always defend against somebody being tricked into giving away their password. What if somebody made an iPhone app that claimed to be similar to 1password, and people stored their Bitcoin keys in it, and then later on it’s discovered to have been criminals? Oh well, too bad. It’s not like they stole your credit card number and you can call the bank to fix the problem. You are just toast. Same thing if you save the key on your laptop or on cloud storage and somebody gets the password.

I agree with you that Bitcoin is not inherently criminal, any more than cash is inherently criminal. It is harder to track than bank accounts though, so the potential for misuse is undeniable.
 

ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
1,281
3,325
So 99.5% of bitcoin transactions are ostensibly legitimate?

Most daily transactions by cryptards are from wallet to exchange or exchange to exchange or ransom payments.Very little spending on the economy. In terms of spending it’s about 90 percent darkweb porn and drugs and 10 percent buying random things online like some PC upgrade part.

Most of the coins in existence for all these crypto pyramid schemes are barely ever moving. They belong to the rich anonymous criminal cartels who sometimes move a few to bribe a politician or pay some influencers to make hype.

Anyone buying into these schemes is brainwashed to believe they are some kind of rebel joining the revolution against the elite banksters but the reality is…

…the most worst element of the banking, venture capitalist and ultra rightwing mafias are the ones who run and own the crypto industry. Unaccountable and hungry for power. They see and and buy and sell all your trading data, they know who to target, how much money is coming in, where the money is going, and how to manipulate the dumb people who invest.

When stinks run out of steam they manipulate you to chance their commodity pump. Then they dump. When that runs out of steam they manipulate you to chase their crypto scams. Then they dump. Then they move you into stonks again. Then they dump on you again.

You are not a revolutionary or financial genius for believing their lies and getting involved in their games.
 

boss.king

macrumors 603
Apr 8, 2009
6,144
6,909
No! Try again!
There are more cryptos than just BTC and more and more miners are using renewable energy like the guy who bought a farm and will put PVs al over it to mine for crypto!
Crypto is in it's early days and is getting better as it gets developed better whereas real money is still total scam and joke!
We keep getting told by the media that we the poor can make money and get rich, what a load of ****ing bull****!
Did you hear about Gamestop ????????
The average Joe used the same rules as Wallstreet to play their game against them and Wallstreet and the media threw a temper tantrum and shut them all down.
You even had billionaires like Len Cooperman cry on the news at the thought of ordinary people making some money!
So please do not make me laugh with your nonsense!
You’re conflating a lot of very different and very unrelated things. Put together a rationale response to what I actually said and try again.
 
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SteveW928

macrumors 68000
May 28, 2010
1,834
1,380
Victoria, B.C. Canada
I wish they'd do something useful and help create a Metal-based crypto-miner.

Or, maybe they will be integrating Podcast 2.0 value block (cf. PodcastIndex.org )? One could hope, instead of mucking about with this silly subscription stuff.
 

ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
1,281
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I wish they'd do something useful and help create a Metal-based crypto-miner.

To do what? Burn your computer down when you should be using it to do productive work for yourself, your employer or your clients?
 

ArPe

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2020
1,281
3,325
You’re conflating a lot of very different and very unrelated things. Put together a rationale response to what I actually said and try again.

The guy doesn’t even realize or doesn’t want to think about:

- state subsidized mining enterprises such as those that exist in China, Iran, Russia and Kazakhstan control 90% percent of the hash power.

- therefore these authoritarian governments are mining most of the so called coins.

- when people in democracies throw their hard earned money at these crypto schemes they are funding these authoritarian governments and enterprises.

- that enables authoritarian governments to expand their influence via bribery and corruption across the world.

- and if enough people in democracies owned a lot of these crypto currencies then those authoritarian governments above could coordinate a 51% attack, actually a 90% attack, and completely steal the coins that westerners have invested in.

- the same goes for almost all the other cryptos.

- even worse is that several of the exchanges that have the larger trading volumes (manipulated and fake volume included) are based in Hong Kong and or appear to be a front for the CCP government. So all westerners using Binance, Houbi etc could suddenly see all their investment disappear from these exchanges.

This is a cyber war played with digital currencies and pyramid schemes and ransomware attacks. A lot of the money stolen from investors in hacks or pump n dumps is being used for malicious political and anti-democratic campaigns.

Because they know how many Americans are fond of gambling and get rich quick schemes they can take advantage of their blind greed to steal their money and then use that money against them.
 

ninethirty

macrumors 68000
Mar 1, 2006
1,540
1,556
Most daily transactions by cryptards are from wallet to exchange or exchange to exchange or ransom payments.Very little spending on the economy. In terms of spending it’s about 90 percent darkweb porn and drugs and 10 percent buying random things online like some PC upgrade part.

Most of the coins in existence for all these crypto pyramid schemes are barely ever moving. They belong to the rich anonymous criminal cartels who sometimes move a few to bribe a politician or pay some influencers to make hype.

Anyone buying into these schemes is brainwashed to believe they are some kind of rebel joining the revolution against the elite banksters but the reality is…

…the most worst element of the banking, venture capitalist and ultra rightwing mafias are the ones who run and own the crypto industry. Unaccountable and hungry for power. They see and and buy and sell all your trading data, they know who to target, how much money is coming in, where the money is going, and how to manipulate the dumb people who invest.

When stinks run out of steam they manipulate you to chance their commodity pump. Then they dump. When that runs out of steam they manipulate you to chase their crypto scams. Then they dump. Then they move you into stonks again. Then they dump on you again.

You are not a revolutionary or financial genius for believing their lies and getting involved in their games.
You've got quite the vivid imagination!
 

31 Flavas

macrumors 6502a
Jun 4, 2011
786
415
If one is more worried about the US government seizing their assets than about being robbed by a criminal, one is either 1) a criminal or 2) disproportionately worried about an occurrence based on its probability of happening. A law-abiding person is far more likely to be robbed than to have the government seize their assets.
You know that lawful citizens will use assets to protect themselves against a collapsing local currency, right? Typically, this is filled by Gold. Wanting to have something that will store that value isn't criminal. And that fear of confiscation is not over blown seeing as US government in the 1930’s seized gold from its law abiding citizens to prevent this.

You should recognize or know me from the Apple vs Epic discussion threads, I recognize you, at least. In those discussions we seemed to agree that their is nuance to be had in Apple's reason for it's iron fist / despotic control of it's iOS operating system beyond the outwardly perceived criminal or anti-competitive implications that others get hung up on. So I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and hope you can come to understand that there is nuance beyond the outwardly perceived "criminal" implications of an anti-confiscatory asset, such as Bitcoin.

i.e. Just as wanting absolute non-backdoor'd privacy in the form of encrypted communications doesn't make you a criminal.

Perhaps in oppressive regimes, Bitcoin is a good alternative; the currencies in such countries are quite volatile to begin with
Right, so the fact that US, British, and European currencies and banking systems are entirely adequate and relatively stable can make the benefits of a better system seem meaningless. I mean, trying to sell the advantages of a solid state disk drive to someone when their regular spinner HDD serves them perfectly well, is a challenge.

The point about the “key” and a stolen laptop is that most people store that key on their computer, so if it is lost or stolen… ?‍♂️
That isn't to say that other crypto assets or crypto currencies couldn't be designed with a management level or backdoors for recovery or transferal. But, Bitcoin isn't one of those.

As a person who has worked in IT support, people forget their passwords more than they misplace their car keys. There is almost always a way to recover a password for your bank; you can verify your identity, go through a process, etc.. If you lose your Bitcoin key, you are just plain screwed.
It's unfortunate that some individuals have lost small or large fortunes due to losing their keys -- there are a wide range of reasons. Some could be as simple as they were doing initial "mining" back in 2009/2010 for fun and couldn't have realize how big or important Bitcoin would eventually become. Regardless, today, you can stick a pseudo-management / password recovery layer into Bitcoin by allowing someone else to manage custody of your Bitcoin, such as, an exchange. Which, I personally, say far better for newbies and beginners. Kind of like how AOL gave everyone "training wheels" of sorts to use and explore the early days of the internet. Of course, though, that choice though then diminishes or marginalizes ownership aspect - leaving the Bitcoin vulnerable to theft or confiscation. So, today, anyone that gets involved with Bitcoin, specifically for the absolute asset ownership part, should be cognizant of that and have plan for keeping backups of their "key" / recovery mnemonic words.

And the security being through a key is not 100% by a long shot. The top method for cyber attacks, by far, is phishing. A lot of systems are quite technically secure, but they cannot always defend against somebody being tricked into giving away their password. What if somebody made an iPhone app that claimed to be similar to 1password, and people stored their Bitcoin keys in it, and then later on it’s discovered to have been criminals? Oh well, too bad. It’s not like they stole your credit card number and you can call the bank to fix the problem. You are just toast. Same thing if you save the key on your laptop or on cloud storage and somebody gets the password.
Yes. You need to be thoroughly cognizant of just how important the "key" / mnemonic recovery words are. You can not be ignorant or cavalier about it. Those of us in the know will be more then happy to assist someone with education, understanding, and implementation of securing your "key" and strategy for backup. This is why absolute right to privacy is a must.

There is no middle ground on this or oversimplifying things to: "oh you're just a criminal or have must nefarious intentions if don't want to allow law enforcement or the government to have backdoors to encryption"

Privacy is a topic that typically the US courts provide to citizens as it is lawful and essential. No need to go into the detail here. You can look up the history yourself if you're not familiar. Start with Griswold v. Connecticut as most privacy rights stem from that case.

I agree with you that Bitcoin is not inherently criminal, any more than cash is inherently criminal. It is harder to track than bank accounts though, so the potential for misuse is undeniable.
That's a common belief - it's just wrong, though. Which is understandable - there's lots of assumptions, lack of understanding, ignorance (willful or not), or propaganda / agenda driven misinformation. But, I get it, to many other people I'm just a "cryptard" so what do I know, right? Maybe you'd prefer to hear it from Michael Morell, former director of the CIA:

Janet Yellen, Bitcoin And Crypto Fearmongers Get Pushback From Former CIA Director
 
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SuperMatt

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Yes. You need to be thoroughly cognizant of just how important the "key" / mnemonic recovery words are. You can not be ignorant or cavalier about it. Those of us in the know will be more then happy to assist someone with education, understanding, and implementation of securing your "key" and strategy for backup. This is why absolute right to privacy is a must.
Thanks for the detailed response; I enjoyed reading it and learned a bit as well.

However, this quote above is why Bitcoin cannot be a mainstream currency in its current iteration. One shouldn’t need a tech expert to teach them how to properly use money. Currency cannot be reliant on this master key that, if one loses it, renders all the currency inaccessible. We can’t have somebody lose their entire fortune because they lost the cryptographic key.

When grandpa dies, all his money is gone because he forgot to write down the key for somebody. Sorry kids, no inheritance.

What could work in the future? Biometrics or a key given to your banker maybe? But in its current iteration, let’s be clear. Bitcoin is NOT a good currency because 1) it is far too volatile and 2) the average person is at risk for losing everything because they aren’t technically adept enough for it.

Most that have bitcoin knows it is speculative and plan accordingly. If people trusted it in its current form as a currency, and then either 1) watched its value drop 50% in a week or 2) lost their key, both things are a complete and utter failure.

I have no problem with anybody trading bitcoin. But it is nowhere near mainstream currency in its current state. Maybe someday it (or something similar) will be.
 

31 Flavas

macrumors 6502a
Jun 4, 2011
786
415
Thanks for the detailed response; I enjoyed reading it and learned a bit as well.

However, this quote above is why Bitcoin cannot be a mainstream currency in its current iteration. One shouldn’t need a tech expert to teach them how to properly use money. Currency cannot be reliant on this master key that, if one loses it, renders all the currency inaccessible. We can’t have somebody lose their entire fortune because they lost the cryptographic key.
Bitcoin is part of a diversified portfolio. Not your whole portfolio. There are going to be "bitcoin maximalists", but I'm just not one of them. So please do not put your "entire fortune" into it. It's a great start that you are cognizant of the risks. But, if you've not recognized it yet, the "ownership" element is only one aspect, an optional one, for why Bitcoin is desirable.

Not everyone has investments. But, those that do usually diversify across traditional investments (i.e. index funds), real estate, and possibly physical gold, among others. Recognizing they all serve in different ways to hedge inflation, generate capital gains, or serve as a safety net. Bitcoin is just one more way.

When grandpa dies, all his money is gone because he forgot to write down the key for somebody. Sorry kids, no inheritance.
Appropriate concern is warranted. But, I'm going to challenge you that this is absurd scenario. No. As I just went over. Grandpa should not throw everthing and the kids inheritance into dogecoin or bitcoin because he hard about it from me or saw mentioned on SNL once. Moreover, "grandpa" would need some pretty detailed knowledge to get to the point where he even could even lose his "key" to that crypto. PayPal and Robbinhood, where this theoretical YOLO'ing grandpa would likely go, don't even allow you to take custody of the crypto you purchase.

What could work in the future? Biometrics or a key given to your banker maybe? But in its current iteration, let’s be clear. Bitcoin is NOT a good currency because 1) it is far too volatile and 2) the average person is at risk for losing everything because they aren’t technically adept enough for it.
What could work in the future? Time.

Improvements will be made for sure, but like the internet, people just need time to get acquainted and familiarized. "Decentralized" is a big word to process. Also, time for the "Heebie-jeebies" to wear off.

Former staunch conservatives and critics are turning into bellwethers, though. Billionaires like Carl Icahn, conservative traditional banks like BNY Mellon, and financial institutions like Goldman Sachs are all switching their tune from "eTulips" and "Darkweb ransoms" to becoming investors themselves as they begin to realize the numerous advantages that digital assets bring.

Most that have bitcoin knows it is speculative and plan accordingly. If people trusted it in its current form as a currency, and then either 1) watched its value drop 50% in a week or 2) lost their key, both things are a complete and utter failure.

I have no problem with anybody trading bitcoin. But it is nowhere near mainstream currency in its current state. Maybe someday it (or something similar) will be.
Bitcoin is for sure speculative -- but, IMO, doesn't help that "Crypto currency" is the popular or synonymous term. You're exactly correct that there are serious problems with using it as a "currency". No merchant will want to accept Bitcoin when it can cleave itself in half value overnight and no purchaser (buyer) _should_ want to spend their bitcoins when the next day they may be worth 30 or 50% more. Add on to that, at least in the USA, spending Bitcoin for goods or services is a Taxable event in the eyes of the IRS. So, if your Bitcoin has increased in value since when you originally obtained or purchased it - you owe a capital gains tax. And, since most US states charge income tax as well, you've got a tax bill there, too.

"Crypto asset" or "Crypto security" would be the better terms to use most of the time for most crypto. Not that, that itself, is of any help itself. Since, despite "asset," "security," and "currency" very much being traditional finance and investment terms, and not some "woke crypto BS" -- few are likely going to be able to differentiate between, much less, define them. But, I digress.

Bitcoin isn't a currency. It's an asset. That is it should be viewed a something like a house, a business, precious metals, or other rare collectable like artwork, stamps, or particular rare sports cards or the like. Something that is expected to vary in value over time, but overall should increase in value over time. And, would otherwise be assessed a "capital gain tax" (or loss) at time the time of sale. So, Bitcoin is best collected and held over time. Not used as a payment medium.

----

All that said, as far as 1) and 2) that you've mentioned - "CBDCs" are coming. Central Bank Digital Currency. Sooner then you think. Metaphorically speaking, tomorrow or next week. Not, decades from now. That will be what will replace your paper money. It'll be a legal tender crypto "currency" issued and backed by, for example, the US, UK, EU, or such, that you will use day to day to pay for everything. It won't vary in value like Bitcoin, but can just as much become worthless through inflation or devaluation. It will have recovery mechanisms so that you "won't lose everything". Even more so then Bitcoin, though, it's public ledger will make it it'll be much easier for governments to track money movements. So that will either be terrifying or reassuring, depending on your individual conceptions or beliefs
.

Now whether the retail banks and bankers that you're accustom to will have any role to play with CBDCs is yet to known. Since, well, you won't need a "bank" account anymore. Your "account" or "wallet" will, in all likelihood, be directly with the government. In that case, Banks would need to provide you with a reason to open and transfer assets to them. As opposed right now, where they have you as a captive audience.

At a high level, you need a bank account today to 1) protect the money you have 2) To deposit / cash checks from your employment 3) Get a loan

You won't need a bank for 1 or 2 with a CBDC due to the cryptography of crypto. 3) is already being handled in the crypto space, but the government could just, as well, become the lender too.
 
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