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Apple Loses Major Tax Dispute in Europe, Must Pay Ireland €13 Billion
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Maybe it’s a language barrier but tax avoidance is a perfectly legal thing to do.
I don’t know many people who honestly claim to give more then their fair share. And apple (or any other company) shouldn’t have to pay more than they are legally required to pay.
I understand that but what’s the point you’re trying making about it? You surely meant something by saying it but it doesn’t seem to have one. Hence my question.
Again, Apple didn't avoid or dodge tax. They paid tax on the money in the US. In fact, they paid a higher rate in the US than they would have in Ireland.
Pretty sure r&d write offs has some negative effect on taxes.Considering the $10bn write off due to Apple Car and this, Apple has lost nearly $25bn very quickly. If you factor in the penalties that it will have to pay due to DMA, I am sure its cash reserves are going to take a hit pretty quickly.
Yeah nah, it was actually illegal, thus this court ruling.
But yeah, the immoral Tim Cook is damaging the Apple brand.
There’s no language barrier. I know the difference between tax avoidance, evasion and fraud.
That’s why I phrased my two previous posts accordingly.
But we should not pretend that Apple’s scheme was found illegal (though not in a way they could easily have foreseen).
The rules weren’t changed.
If anything, they were interpreted by courts of law.
They did not create the laws to enable them paying effective (corporate) tax rates below 1% - when their nominal rate was 12.5%. If anything, they deliberately left exploitable loopholes - which Apple just didn’t exploit craftily enough.
That also answers “idiotic” comments about “morality” and branding the EU as “criminals” (note: “you idiots” were your own words).
Means nothing, when we’re talking about European tax that Apple avoided.
“But I paid taxes somewhere else” is the oldest excuse of any tax dodger.
Here’s the thing: You may be able to “structure” your taxes in certain ways, using certain corporate setups.
But paying taxes on something somewhere doesn’t absolve you from (possibly) paying taxes elsewhere.
Nope, it’s not remotely the same. Participation in Apples environment is entirely voluntary. It’s not at all the same as governments and taxation.
I certainly hope you aren’t a tax preparer because if you are your clients are getting fleeced. As an expat because I pay taxes abroad I am absolved from paying taxes in my home country.
Next time you make a declarative statement you should make sure it’s actually true. In this case it’s very much not.
Seems we call the same thing differently.
Then what happened is being purposefully mischaracterized.
I think we are not using the same terminology to mean the same thing. Tax avoidance is perfectly legal and whether YOU personally like what they did that’s what it was.
Pretend?
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They didn't pay an effective tax rate below 1%. That's a lie put out by Vestager computed by dividing the tax by revenue instead of by income.
That's just FUD. You pay corporate income taxes on corporate income (obviously). Apple booked the income in the US, not Ireland. And so they paid taxes in the US.
Again, Apple used (and still uses) Irish tax laws to delay paying US taxes. For the years in question, they asked and received permission to do that with two branches of one subsidiary instead of two different subsidiaries (which was the traditional Double Irish setup). The EC considered this decision, which had minimal tax implications, to be illegal state aid.
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EU simply don’t like countries competing on taxes and call it “tax dodging”.
I am amazed how Europeans like how the EU can dictate how Ireland should tax their companies. Ireland has no sovereignty anymore.
Ben Thompson did a pretty great job of explaining this today - unfortunately it's paywalled. Here's a key point:
Interesting update from Stratechery, which matches some of the observations already made here (made a quick cursory glance, will be a very busy week).
Apple technically did not lose the lawsuit, because the EU sued Ireland, not Apple. Apple has to cough up the taxes owed, though it has actually already paid those taxes to the US treasury when it repatriated 245 billion of profits in 2018. So any money that Apple does end up "paying" would end up coming from the US treasury, not Apple's coffers itself.
So the case may not be over so quickly, especially if the US balks at paying the amount owed, and decides to intervene somehow. So it may no longer be Apple vs EU, but the US vs EU indirectly.
Edit - argh, ninja'ed by @surferfb
Apple technically did not lose the lawsuit, because the EU sued Ireland, not Apple. Apple has to cough up the taxes owed, though it has actually already paid those taxes to the US treasury when it repatriated 245 billion of profits in 2018. So any money that Apple does end up "paying" would end up coming from the US treasury, not Apple's coffers itself.
So the case may not be over so quickly, especially if the US balks at paying the amount owed, and decides to intervene somehow. So it may no longer be Apple vs EU, but the US vs EU indirectly.
Edit - argh, ninja'ed by @surferfb
Given that their iOS/App Store platform is in a duopoly with Android/Play Store, it’s not voluntary in practice.
The platform is too big and important to ignore for many businesses/services, and the DMA recognises that. It is, in fact, the very reason why that law exists.
👉 If you know better, just how much is it then?
Also, I refer to my previous link:
“Since the early 1990s, the government of Ireland has calculated Apple's taxable income in such a way as to produce an effective rate in the low single digits," Apple tax chief Bullock told the subcommittee in earlier testimony.”
👉 Was that a lie in testimony before U.S. Senate (subcommittee), too?
Nonsense. Your personal tax situation has (probably) got little to do with corporate taxation of companies the size of Apple. I’ve read quite a few double taxation agreements - and let me tell you: they often but not always double taxation. Without DTA in place, the risk of double taxation increases substantially. Tax advisers are of course paid by companies like Apple to minimise tax liabilities.
Whatever taxes they paid in the U.S. is wholly meaningless.
They did not book book the income for Irish tax purposes - as they were ultimately found to have to.
Apple doesn't release it. But that doesn't change the fact that Vestager calculated the .005% number by dividing tax paid by revenue instead of income.
Did you notice that your quote was about behavior prior to the dates that we are talking about? And before Ireland implemented a 12.5% corporate tax rate in 1996? And that low single digits isn't below 1%?
Again, you're just making this up. You don't appear to have any idea of the specifics of the case. Apple has been booking income in the US before and after the dates in question. You don't book the same income in multiple countries.
Hogwash. The dam exists as a thinly veiled attempt at consumerism but in reality take applesmorofits away by providing free access to the App Store. There is no duopoly as there are hundreds of manufacturers, things are getting made up.
Since 2020 the effective tax rate is about 15%.