Apple Macs, opinions from the Internet

rainbowmagik

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jan 5, 2014
20
0
This is my first post on these forums, as having used virtually every platform and always woriking on mac/linux/windows I thought I would share my thoughts on apple macs in the context of modern operating systems and UIs and a little rant on hardware. I really have no bias for or against apple these are just my experiences.

mac, the good parts:
  • Xcode (for the special price of free) and apple having the best developer support IMO.
  • decent virus imunity.
  • consistent UX.
  • stable hardware and well constructed chassis and keyboard.
  • The magic mouse gestures and scrolling are awesome.
  • Your outdated hardware can be sold at a good price on ebay.
  • The built in ebook reader is really nice. I only read ebooks on my mac.
  • OS updates getting cheaper and recently free.
  • Full screen mode on apps is a good feature that no one else is doing right.

mac, the bad parts:
  • Obj-C is apple only which can make it difficult to port apps.
  • Somewhat expensive.(especially laptops, whose price like other vendors seems difficult to justify with wonderful AMD A-Series laptops for half the price, of course some prefer or need to use apple and wouldn't be swayed by this.)
  • The UK keyboard is really frustrating, it uses a layout similar to a US one, the @ and " are the wrong way round and there is no # (replaced by a £).
  • The magic mouse is tiny, also the battery enclosure is badly designed sometimes a slight tap will disconect a terminal(I use a piece of cardboard to keep it working and I expect a little more for £40)
  • Hardware compatability (I have a really nice mechanical cherry keyboard that doesnt work right)
  • Pointless dashboard.
  • cmd/ctrl why do we need both, other platforms have been doing fine with ctrl.
  • The worst file manager of any modern OS.

comparison with other UIs
  • Windows 7 - A really good interface, some people say its a copy of osX but honestly the UX on w7 is different from osX, it's like they distilled the best parts of vista added some neat tricks and made a UI that is still the best conventional desktop.
  • Windows 8 - ... why bother.
  • Ubuntu Unity- This is a copy of osX but the docker is on the left, because the app launcher is in a corner its easier to open an app. I originally didn't like it but I'm used to it now. Also it doesnt have some of the nice tricks that osX has but has a more useful file manager and the usual linuxy things.
  • Gnome 3 - sort of like marmite, you either love it or hate it. I think its the best UI ever. When I use gnome I dont really have to look at what I'm doing. "dont think, feeeeel!". They did charms properly unlike m$. If you can let go of the conventional desktop paradigms and think about how you would like to do most things in constant time then you will see the wisdom of this interface.

Although osX looks nice and everything I think its really falling behind with its UI, but rather than forcing these changes on people they should allow new features to be easily disabled or disabled by default. At the very least window snapping.

Also apple should keep in mind that people sometimes work on other computers and most computers are not macs. A keyboard layout that matches up to the regional layout is really in the interest of users. At the very least they could offer it as their "alternate" layout.

What do other mac users think?
 

tech4all

macrumors 68040
Jun 13, 2004
3,400
489
NorCal
Somewhat expensive.(especially laptops, whose price like other vendors seems difficult to justify with wonderful AMD A-Series laptops for half the price, of course some prefer or need to use apple and wouldn't be swayed by this.)
Apple Tax ;)


Pointless dashboard.
Gotta disagree with you there. Dashboard is a great feature to have with useful widgets to aid in many things.

cmd/ctrl why do we need both, other platforms have been doing fine with ctrl.
Maybe PCs should use CMD?

The worst file manager of any modern OS.
Works great for me. :confused:

I'm still on Snow Leopard so I can't comment on recent versions of OS X.
 

rainbowmagik

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jan 5, 2014
20
0
Maybe PCs should use CMD?
My point was that cmd is basically ctrl on other platforms so why not lose ctrl and have cmd as the mac ctrl. most shortcuts that use it could probably use some option combination anyway. I suppose its not a big deal really...:eek:
 

Consultant

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,297
23
My point was that cmd is basically ctrl on other platforms so why not lose ctrl and have cmd as the mac ctrl. most shortcuts that use it could probably use some option combination anyway. I suppose its not a big deal really...:eek:
Do you touch type? Where do you put all your fingers?

Your thumbs are closer to the CMD key than the CTRL key. Less time wasted with CMD key.
 

talmy

macrumors 601
Oct 26, 2009
4,710
274
Oregon
This is my first post on these forums, as having used virtually every platform and always woriking on mac/linux/windows
I own Macs but also use Windows (XP and 7) and Linux (Debian, Ubuntu, and Xubuntu) at work on a daily basis.

Xcode (for the special price of free) and apple having the best developer support IMO.
The free versions of Visual Studio (Windows) I would argue are better. Netbeans and Eclipse are best for cross platform (except OS X to iOS) and embedded programming which I do mostly.

decent virus imunity.
Maybe. Fewer attacks -- certainly.

consistent UX.
As long as authors meet the standards. There have also been some changes from OS version to version that have upset people, especially from Snow Leopard to Lion.

The built in ebook reader is really nice. I only read ebooks on my mac.
I'm just annoyed that it took them so long after entering the ebook business to provide this.
Full screen mode on apps is a good feature that no one else is doing right.
I sense you have only one display. Multi-display users might beg to differ! And even though things have improved immensely with Mavericks, multi-display support is still riddled with problems.

Obj-C is apple only which can make it difficult to port apps.
If apps are written keeping to C except for the user interface, then it isn't bad since IMHO the major problem going from target to target is that the user interface code needs to be completely rewritten. This is why most programs I write are either in Java or Qt framework. Of course that locks out the Apple store, but that isn't an issue for me.

The magic mouse is tiny, also the battery enclosure is badly designed sometimes a slight tap will disconect a terminal(I use a piece of cardboard to keep it working and I expect a little more for £40)
Mice seem to be personal taste. Frankly, I've found the Magic Mouse to be the best mouse I've ever had, however the previous Mighty Mouse was a piece of junk.

Hardware compatability (I have a really nice mechanical cherry keyboard that doesnt work right)
YMMV. I use a 1989 Northgate Omnikey/102 keyboard. Works like a charm.

Pointless dashboard.
I use it all the time.

cmd/ctrl why do we need both, other platforms have been doing fine with ctrl.
"Other" being Linux. Windows has it's meta key as well. My understanding was that the Command key was intended for system functions and the control key (when used with alpha keys) was for applications. The line seems to have become somewhat blurred. And don't forget the Option key as a modifier.

The worst file manager of any modern OS.
I've found that I can get around better in it than Windows Explorer. It's just a bit different. And Linux file managers I've always found to be terrible.

Windows 7 - A really good interface, some people say its a copy of osX but honestly the UX on w7 is different from osX, it's like they distilled the best parts of vista added some neat tricks and made a UI that is still the best conventional desktop.
Always feels bulky/fat to me. Not at all a copy of OS X.

Windows 8 - ... why bother.
I have to bother because I also teach and have students with these -- it's hard to buy a consumer computer without it. I hate it.

Ubuntu Unity- This is a copy of osX but the docker is on the left, because the app launcher is in a corner its easier to open an app. I originally didn't like it but I'm used to it now. Also it doesnt have some of the nice tricks that osX has but has a more useful file manager and the usual linuxy things.
We've dropped Ubuntu because of Unity. It's slower to get around than the older menus, has become finicky with low end graphic cards (we use Linux on the manufacturing floor and have very low end systems) and the commercial tie-ins have us frightened. It also seems to be going the Windows 8 route, thinking of touch screens.

Although osX looks nice and everything I think its really falling behind with its UI, but rather than forcing these changes on people they should allow new features to be easily disabled or disabled by default. At the very least window snapping.
I've been using BetterTouchTool for snapping (and more flexibility with the Magic Mouse).

Also apple should keep in mind that people sometimes work on other computers and most computers are not macs. A keyboard layout that matches up to the regional layout is really in the interest of users. At the very least they could offer it as their "alternate" layout.
Being in the US, "regional layout" isn't a concern. :) However I've been using computers for over 40 years and keyboards for over 50 and every one has some irritating difference. I've just gotten used to living with it!
 

rainbowmagik

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jan 5, 2014
20
0
Do you touch type? Where do you put all your fingers?

Your thumbs are closer to the CMD key than the CTRL key. Less time wasted with CMD key.
I do but since I spend probably 75% of my time on other computers where the ctrl is placed in a different spot, its something I have to think twice about which slows me down. although your right it is easier to press.

I hate Gnome 3
A lot of people do, but you can always use the classic interface if your stuck on a machine with it.

The free versions of Visual Studio (Windows) I would argue are better. Netbeans and Eclipse are best for cross platform (except OS X to iOS) and embedded programming which I do mostly.
I suppose IDEs are personal preference. I actually only code obj-c in xcode, and I think everything is nicely integrated for it. I also code python in pyCharm which is an eclipse like IDE. In the past I've just used vim for C and PERL but I found eclipse easier to keep things managed and then started using pyCharm which has some good python features since pyDev didn't seem to be keeping up a while ago.

Maybe. Fewer attacks -- certainly.
Thats why I said decent as apposed to perfect :)

I sense you have only one display... multi-display support is still riddled with problems.
Yes I only use one display on the mac. I don't really do anything on it that would require multiple screens.

Mice seem to be personal taste. Frankly, I've found the Magic Mouse to be the best mouse I've ever had, however the previous Mighty Mouse was a piece of junk.
I like the mouse, but its small for my hands and like I said it can stop working if it suffers the slightest jarring, needing the batteries to be repositioned. I've looked around and others have the same problem.

YMMV. I use a 1989 Northgate Omnikey/102 keyboard. Works like a charm.
That's a nice keyboard!

I've found that I can get around better in it than Windows Explorer. It's just a bit different. And Linux file managers I've always found to be terrible.
More recent linuxs have pretty decent ones, better IMO than finder or explorer

I have to bother because I also teach and have students with these -- it's hard to buy a consumer computer without it. I hate it.
I thought they would add a start menu in 8.1 but m$ are determined to force metro on us. I think its only a matter of time before windows is replaced by linux as a workhorse and gaming platform but that should be natural if you don't listen to your users.

We've dropped Ubuntu because of Unity. It's slower to get around than the older menus, has become finicky with low end graphic cards (we use Linux on the manufacturing floor and have very low end systems) and the commercial tie-ins have us frightened. It also seems to be going the Windows 8 route, thinking of touch screens.
I've been running 12.04 LTS for ages now without issues after deciding to just swallow the unity pill. The trick is to remove most of the icons from the ribbon so that it doesn't scroll. Of course you could install something like KDE.
I know what you mean though, I've had similar issues with older machines graphics cards having poor support in ubuntu. What did you replace it with?

Being in the US, "regional layout" isn't a concern. :) However I've been using computers for over 40 years and keyboards for over 50 and every one has some irritating difference. I've just gotten used to living with it!
Trust me the UK apple layout is really stupid, its like they couldn't be bothered to get it right. It's just the US layout with the # replaced by a £.
 

Intell

macrumors P6
Jan 24, 2010
18,897
407
Inside
My point was that cmd is basically ctrl on other platforms so why not lose ctrl and have cmd as the mac ctrl. most shortcuts that use it could probably use some option combination anyway. I suppose its not a big deal really...:eek:
The Control key is needed for proper compatibility with OS X's UNIX subsystems. Trying to use a UNIX prompt without a control key isn't the easiest thing nor is it overly useful for much beyond the basics.
 

talmy

macrumors 601
Oct 26, 2009
4,710
274
Oregon
I think its only a matter of time before windows is replaced by linux as a workhorse and gaming platform but that should be natural if you don't listen to your users.
People have been saying "this will be the Year of Linux" for a couple decades now.

I've been running 12.04 LTS for ages now without issues after deciding to just swallow the unity pill. The trick is to remove most of the icons from the ribbon so that it doesn't scroll. Of course you could install something like KDE.
I know what you mean though, I've had similar issues with older machines graphics cards having poor support in ubuntu. What did you replace it with?
Xubuntu, but it's been dropped (no more LTS versions). These go on a manufacturing floor, have to compile our proprietary software, which is basically the only thing they run. Mainly Intel Atom processors with embedded (and slow) graphics.
 

rainbowmagik

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jan 5, 2014
20
0
People have been saying "this will be the Year of Linux" for a couple decades now.
Well there's is some momentum here now with steam os giving device manufacturers a good reason to offer up to date linux support. Apparently developers will be targeting it as a platform for future releases. Thinking back 5 years, linux has a come a long way and is recently in a position where it can compete with windows for light desktop users. It may just be a drop in the bucket but I know a lot of non technical people who are recently aware of ubuntu as an alternative, some have even asked me how to install it, which is probably the biggest hurdle any alternative OS will have since most people are a bit clueless about computers.

Xubuntu, but it's been dropped (no more LTS versions). These go on a manufacturing floor, have to compile our proprietary software, which is basically the only thing they run. Mainly Intel Atom processors with embedded (and slow) graphics.
I don't know why so many people chose those over the amd embedded, I'm surprised you get any work done on them. Maybe something more lightweight like centos would be better, even more so without an LTS. You could even compile your own distro based on an LTS version if it has to be ubuntu.
 

MyMac1976

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2013
511
1
steam OS is seriously bad right now. When steam released it it had ludicrous requirements and was EFI only. People have recompiled for BIOS and AMD support but even then it's slower that pickadistro with steam installed. It was released too early and is really and alpha product. I wish Gabe and Steam would not get into a pissing contest with MS they just can't win.
 

rainbowmagik

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jan 5, 2014
20
0
steam OS is seriously bad right now. When steam released it it had ludicrous requirements and was EFI only. People have recompiled for BIOS and AMD support but even then it's slower that pickadistro with steam installed. It was released too early and is really and alpha product. I wish Gabe and Steam would not get into a pissing contest with MS they just can't win.
It doesn't matter if steam OS is good or not, what matters is that amd/nvidia and other hardware manufacturers will stop being lazy with linux and make drivers more frequently. Also if developers start making games and apps with linux in mind because of steam OS, the end result is more native apps that can be run on linux.

Also steam OS is still in beta, the final release is not ready yet for the average user.
 

MyMac1976

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2013
511
1
It doesn't matter if steam OS is good or not, what matters is that amd/nvidia and other hardware manufacturers will stop being lazy with linux and make drivers more frequently. Also if developers start making games and apps with linux in mind because of steam OS, the end result is more native apps that can be run on linux.

Also steam OS is still in beta, the final release is not ready yet for the average user.
nVidia does make drivers frequently for Linux. The linux driver is the same as the Windows driver, AMD is committed to not releasing on Linux sooo..

Steam OS is a Beta that is actually an alpha the amount of work that needed to be done to get it function on any sort of HW that is not directly comparable to the steam box was asinine. Steam bombed this release they needed to release and showed the world that open source is rushed and not thought through. Steam OS will be viable next year as it stands right now it's a cluster ****. The Steam game catalog has been growing well over the last 18 months but it's still less than 4% of Steam users but it has put to be the myth that Linux types won't pay for software. There are two big issues in the Linux world market share and fragmentation. The Fragmentation is about to get all kinds of bad when Canonical drops Mir, that'll leave Xorg, Wayland, and Mir draw screens. We already have issues with inits upstart, systemd, and sysvinit. As a dev who do you write for? Canonical with upstart and Mir, Debian that uses Wayland and xorg and sysvinit and systemd, RH with xorg and likely systemd, slack with sysvinit and xorg do you just throw source out there and hope for the best? Linux will go no where on the desktop until here is open standards that all adhere to but the ego's are just too big for that. I'm happy as a clam in Linux but I live in the Linux sphere and understand where I can't go.

I'm not trying to be negative I want Linux to succeed but it's going to take more than Steam OS for that to happen
 

talmy

macrumors 601
Oct 26, 2009
4,710
274
Oregon
I don't know why so many people chose those over the amd embedded, I'm surprised you get any work done on them. Maybe something more lightweight like centos would be better, even more so without an LTS. You could even compile your own distro based on an LTS version if it has to be ubuntu.
The "work" consists of controlling test equipment on the manufacturing floor. Performance is not an issue. We still have some computers that are nearly 20 years old. The new ones are all 1U rack mount with SSDs and no fans. Frankly, Linux is used because when the company started (in the 90's) they didn't want to pay for all the Windows licenses! Half of the company's manufacturing does use Windows now with coding in C#. Just not my half!

We could be doing this with Raspberry Pis, but the computer is now just a small percentage of the cost of the tester so it doesn't really matter what we put there.
 

MyMac1976

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2013
511
1
The "work" consists of controlling test equipment on the manufacturing floor. Performance is not an issue. We still have some computers that are nearly 20 years old. The new ones are all 1U rack mount with SSDs and no fans. Frankly, Linux is used because when the company started (in the 90's) they didn't want to pay for all the Windows licenses! Half of the company's manufacturing does use Windows now with coding in C#. Just not my half!

We could be doing this with Raspberry Pis, but the computer is now just a small percentage of the cost of the tester so it doesn't really matter what we put there.
I always thought controlling machines would be a good use for Pi's no fans to suck in junk virtually no power completely set and forget.
 

talmy

macrumors 601
Oct 26, 2009
4,710
274
Oregon
I always thought controlling machines would be a good use for Pi's no fans to suck in junk virtually no power completely set and forget.
I need to put a wattmeter on one of the 1U computers. I expect they don't draw much. Doing code development (C++) directly on these systems (typically using VNC from another computer) runs reasonably fast with the SSD.
 

roadbloc

macrumors G3
Aug 24, 2009
8,784
213
UK
[*]Windows 8 - ... why bother.
Personally, I've never had an issue with Windows 8. Been using it since its release and once you've learnt the ropes and the changes, you become to realise that it is much better than Windows 7. Its faster, more stable, requires less resources and can be used easily on a much wider range of hardware including tablets without the need of a single driver.

Microsoft haven't been doing a great job of explaining their intentions with the new interface. The simplest way is to pin the right type of apps on the Start Screen for the device you're on. IE. Desktop apps for laptops and desktops and the new Metro apps for tablets. By simply doing that, Windows 8 becomes a breeze to use.

I do understand learning a new(ish) interface can be a little daunting when its been mostly the same since Windows 95. And Microsoft need to pull their finger out and accurately communicate to the consumer what the deal is rather than just dumping it on us and expecting people to just figure it out.
 

A Hebrew

macrumors 6502a
Jan 7, 2012
847
0
Minnesota
I must say I agree about the dashboard on OSX being fairly useless....I haven't used it in ages and cannot think of a valid reason to other than to pass boredom.
 

rainbowmagik

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jan 5, 2014
20
0
nVidia does make drivers frequently for Linux. The linux driver is the same as the Windows driver, AMD is committed to not releasing on Linux sooo..

Steam OS is a Beta that is actually an alpha the amount of work that needed to be done to get it function on any sort of HW that is not directly comparable to the steam box was asinine. Steam bombed this release they needed to release and showed the world that open source is rushed and not thought through. Steam OS will be viable next year as it stands right now it's a cluster ****. The Steam game catalog has been growing well over the last 18 months but it's still less than 4% of Steam users but it has put to be the myth that Linux types won't pay for software. There are two big issues in the Linux world market share and fragmentation. The Fragmentation is about to get all kinds of bad when Canonical drops Mir, that'll leave Xorg, Wayland, and Mir draw screens. We already have issues with inits upstart, systemd, and sysvinit. As a dev who do you write for? Canonical with upstart and Mir, Debian that uses Wayland and xorg and sysvinit and systemd, RH with xorg and likely systemd, slack with sysvinit and xorg do you just throw source out there and hope for the best? Linux will go no where on the desktop until here is open standards that all adhere to but the ego's are just too big for that. I'm happy as a clam in Linux but I live in the Linux sphere and understand where I can't go.

I'm not trying to be negative I want Linux to succeed but it's going to take more than Steam OS for that to happen
I agree with most of what you said, for a while now I've been a little anoyed with the direction ubuntu has been heading in. But I still think steam os will in the end deliver some kind of benefit to linux users.

----------

Personally, I've never had an issue with Windows 8. Been using it since its release and once you've learnt the ropes and the changes, you become to realise that it is much better than Windows 7. Its faster, more stable, requires less resources and can be used easily on a much wider range of hardware including tablets without the need of a single driver.

Microsoft haven't been doing a great job of explaining their intentions with the new interface. The simplest way is to pin the right type of apps on the Start Screen for the device you're on. IE. Desktop apps for laptops and desktops and the new Metro apps for tablets. By simply doing that, Windows 8 becomes a breeze to use.

I do understand learning a new(ish) interface can be a little daunting when its been mostly the same since Windows 95. And Microsoft need to pull their finger out and accurately communicate to the consumer what the deal is rather than just dumping it on us and expecting people to just figure it out.
I know windows 8 and has some useful features and is faster but the problem is the interface is completely un-intuitive, 8.1 solved some issues but they really should have just given users what they wanted. Personally I think windows 8 is just a big scam to get people to upgrade to windows 9 when it eventually comes out which will probably be windows 8 with a start menu, since I can think of no one who actually likes the metro interface a ton of people will upgrade. Think about all those laptops that come with win8...
 

chown33

Moderator
Staff member
Aug 9, 2009
8,765
5,124
vertical
I do but since I spend probably 75% of my time on other computers where the ctrl is placed in a different spot, its something I have to think twice about which slows me down. although your right it is easier to press.
You can remap the Mac's modifier keys so their action differs from the legend printed on their surface.

System Preferences > Keyboard > Keyboard tab.

Click the "Modifier Keys..." pushbutton at lower right.

Remap modifiers to suit your preferred touch-typing layout.

The above description is on a 10.8.4 Mtn Lion system, but modifier-key remapping hasn't changed significantly in some time.
 

And

macrumors 6502
Feb 23, 2009
389
1
92 ft above sea level, UK
mac, the bad parts:

1. The UK keyboard is really frustrating, it uses a layout similar to a US one, the @ and " are the wrong way round and there is no # (replaced by a £).
2. The magic mouse is tiny, also the battery enclosure is badly designed sometimes a slight tap will disconect a terminal(I use a piece of cardboard to keep it working and I expect a little more for £40)
3. cmd/ctrl why do we need both, other platforms have been doing fine with ctrl.
4. The worst file manager of any modern OS.
1. Alt-3 = #. It really isn't a big deal.
2. This could be a quirk of the battery, try a different manufacturer. Failing that, sounds like the mouse was duff, so take it back?
3. Yes, no Cmd on a windows pc. But what's with the windows key...?
4. I've not seen anything better personally. I have less frustration on my mac than on my work pc (windows 7) moving files around.

----------

Apols... I think I would agree with you re dashboard. It has been reducing in visibility in the OS over various iterations and I think it will disappear soon. I don't know anyone who uses it.
 

Sym0

macrumors 6502
Jun 6, 2013
394
44
Have to disagree about price. A similarly spec'd laptop to the top model 15 costs the same. But is twice as think, haas a poor screen, and flexes and creaks of cheap plastic. I ended up buying the PC equivalent if the rMBP15 and it was dearer and no where near as good, on par for performance but indistinguishable from a $599 entry level POS from office works.

The mac looks like a million bucks and walks the walk!!
 

MyMac1976

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2013
511
1
No similarly spec'ed and priced PC latops tend not to me plastic, thick, or have poorer resolution.
 

roadbloc

macrumors G3
Aug 24, 2009
8,784
213
UK
I know windows 8 and has some useful features and is faster but the problem is the interface is completely un-intuitive, 8.1 solved some issues but they really should have just given users what they wanted. Personally I think windows 8 is just a big scam to get people to upgrade to windows 9 when it eventually comes out which will probably be windows 8 with a start menu, since I can think of no one who actually likes the metro interface a ton of people will upgrade. Think about all those laptops that come with win8...
I like the Metro interface. I find launching apps off a fullscreen menu (known as the Start Screen) much easier than navigating the tiny Start Menus we had before. I highly doubt Microsoft will be returning to the Start Menu. The Start Screen is far superior and with some luck, 8.2 will include drag and drop support which is just about the only feature it lacks.

I also doubt we'll be seeing Windows 9 anytime soon since we're getting incremental updates every year. Fail to see how Windows 8 is a scam though. It works perfectly for me. As I said, once you've learned how to use it (put more than half an hour toying around and actually put some effort getting to grips with how the tablet and desktop interfaces work together), you find it actually isn't as bad as anybody is making out and if much much faster and more stable than Windows 7.
 

rainbowmagik

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jan 5, 2014
20
0
Have to disagree about price. A similarly spec'd laptop to the top model 15 costs the same. But is twice as think, haas a poor screen, and flexes and creaks of cheap plastic. I ended up buying the PC equivalent if the rMBP15 and it was dearer and no where near as good, on par for performance but indistinguishable from a $599 entry level POS from office works.

The mac looks like a million bucks and walks the walk!!
No similarly spec'ed and priced PC latops tend not to me plastic, thick, or have poorer resolution.
As an example case:
A 13" MBP retails at £999
An Acer Aspire V5-552P retails at £599

The MBP is a third of the thickness of the acer but the acer does have better specs thanks to the amd A10, the acer also has more ram.
Stylistically they seem fairly equivalent to me.

I actually have a better spec version of the acer I bought last year for I think £450 but it must have been reduced in price at the time.
The point I was making is that amd powered laptops right now are a lot cheaper and pretty powerful. The intels on the other hand are fairly equivalent price wise to macs but you have to pay a lot for anything approaching capable graphics hardware.
The amd A series on the other hand has integrated graphics approaching the performance of a mid range graphics card.

I often run cad and simulation software on an amd A10 laptop, I would not be able to do the same on a mbp that would have cost twice as much at the time.

I don't agree that apple laptops are in a class of their own, there are other premium laptops out there of good build quality, some of them with better hardware, and depending on what your using it for may be more ideal for some application like my previous example.

Of course price isn't the only factor that will influence which laptop you use, but if I wanted to use an apple laptop right now for this I would have to go for the £2199 15" MBP and also purchase some windows to run on it, since most of the software I need to run doesn't have a mac version. Which really defeats the point of using a mac.

Anyway I stand by my original argument on laptops.
 
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