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Hip89

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Oct 16, 2019
18
1
London
EDIT: in this post I have mistakenly called my Mac aluminum A1243 wired extended keyboard with numeric keypad a "Magic Keyboard", but in fact that's not the correct name, as was pointed out by @TheIntruder below. My keyboard is the Apple Keyboard with with numeric keypad, model number A1243.

However, all of what's written here applies to any Mac aluminum keyboard, or Mac laptop keyboard, that have the modern low-profile keys (scissor-switch mechanism keys).



In this post I will argue that the aluminum Apple Magic Keyboard is flawed and not fit for purpose. This is because if the tiniest drop of water is spilt onto the keyboard, or if you try to clean the Magic Keyboard with a damp cleaning cloth, this will often instantly and permanently destroy the keyboard. A few drops of water can kill the Magic Keyboard.

Two extended Apple Magic Keyboards with numeric keypads I've had were instantly and permanently destroyed by a tiny amount of water which got into the keys. When a small drop of water makes contact with the keys, the keys often become non-functional, and no amount of drying out of the keyboard over a warm radiator will fix the problem. You can try to dry out the Magic Keyboard for weeks, but once any water lands on the keys, forget it, as the keyboard is often irreparably destroyed.

It's hard to understand why that occurs, because even mobile phones, for example, which are dropped into water will temporarily stop working, understandably, but once dried out they usually return to function. How can just a drop of water permanently destroy the Magic Keyboard? Nothing should be that fragile.

When used in a home or office environment, you would expect the occasional drop of coffee, etc, to fall on the keyboard, so a keyboard that cannot survive a few drops of water is clearly not fit for purpose. A keyboard should be designed with the home or office environment in mind.

Similarly, you would expect any consumer electronics product to be able to survive gentle cleaning with a damp cloth, but such cleaning often kills Apple Magic keyboards.

I am currently trying to get Apple to replace my Magic Keyboard which several days ago was instantly rendered permanently non-functional because of contact with the tiniest amount of water.

Under the UK Consumer Rights Act (https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/l/faulty-goods), a product must be fit for purpose, and if it is not, then it is the legal duty of the manufacturer to repair, replace or refund the cost of the product. So I am citing UK consumer law to Apple, to try to get them to replace my broken keyboard.

In other countries, consumer protection law will vary, so if you've had a Mac Magic Keyboard die on you after exposure to a tiny amount of water, check your local consumer protection laws to see if you can legally ask Apple to refund or replace the keyboard. You can learn about the consumer rights you have in your country on Apple's website here: https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/statutoryrights.html

I lost my first aluminum Magic Keyboard with a numeric keypad to water in 2015, when I spilt probably less than a teaspoon of coffee onto this keyboard. Although it was only a small amount of liquid, this rendered many keys non-functional. I thought that drying out the keyboard over a warm radiator would fix the issue, but even after two weeks on the radiator, the keys remained non-functioning. Even after being left in a cupboard for a year, that keyboard was still not working.

Looking online, I discovered that many people have experienced the same issue of Apple Magic Keyboards being completely destroyed by a tiny water spill. Reluctantly I ended up having to buy a new Apple Magic Keyboard with numeric keypad, at a cost of £45 in 2015.

Then some days ago, I was cleaning my Mac Magic Keyboard with a dampened kitchen paper towel, to remove some greasy marks from the keys and aluminum surface. To my horror, the same problem occurred: a tiny amount of water from the damp cloth I guess must have got into the keys, and now these keys are permanently non-functional. No amount of drying out the keyboard has helped. The keyboard is now kaput, simply as a result of me gently cleaning it with a slightly damp cloth.

I am really appalled by how fragile and vulnerable the Apple Magic Keyboard is with respect to a tiny water spill or water exposure. A few drops of water appears to be enough to permanently destroy it.

What's more, in the last 3 years, the cost of the Magic Keyboard with numeric keypad has shot up from £45 to £129! This is a very high price for a keyboard that is not fit for purpose.

This vulnerability in the Magic Keyboard needs to be fixed by Apple.

With other keyboards I have owned, including previous models of Mac keyboard (models prior to the Magic Keyboard), I have spilt coffee on them, and have cleaned them with a damp cloth, without the keyboard dying on me. Yet with the Mac Magic Keyboard, a little bit of water is the kiss of death.

Imagine if the Apple Magic Keyboard were being used in a mission-critical environment, such as in the military, or in a hospital emergency department. You would not want your computer to be rendered dysfunctional just due to a tiny spill of coffee. So unless Apple fix this issue, it would be unwise to employ a Mac for any mission critical purpose, unless you buy a third party keyboard which does not have this aqua-vulnerability.

If you have had a Magic Keyboard die on you after you cleaned it, or after you spilt a few drops of a drink on it, I suggest you do not pay out of you own pocket to replace it. I think it's only fair to complain to Apple, and to ask them to provide you with a new keyboard. It is not acceptable that tiny little water spills can instantly destroy this expensive keyboard. Only if enough people complain in this way will Apple do anything about this fault. I am really annoyed after now losing two keyboards to a few drops of water.

I think the Magic Keyboard is an excellent keyboard in terms of looks and ergonomics, and in general I am a great fan of the Mac; but something needs to be done to make the Magic Keyboard less fragile with respect to tiny water spills.

I posted the above information and complaint on the Apple Support forum (https://discussions.apple.com), but that forum deleted my thread. It seems they would rather not have people know about this fault. So for public information purposes, I am reposting the info here.
 
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I have two Magic Keyboards that I have abused daily, every day - for years. This is the first time I heard they are not fit for purpose. I also clean them with a damp cloth, like I do any other keyboard.

I do have a rule - no drinks on my work table, though. These keyboards are great, love them.
 
I have two Magic Keyboards that I have abused daily, every day - for years. This is the first time I heard they are not fit for purpose. I also clean them with a damp cloth, like I do any other keyboard.

I do have a rule - no drinks on my work table, though. These keyboards are great, love them.

I agree the Magic Keyboard is great in terms of looks and feel. I really like the action of the keys, which is based on the scissor-switch mechanism. However, I've found these keyboards very susceptible to being destroyed by water.

After my first Magic Keyboard was destroyed by a bit of coffee, I took great care not to expose my second keyboard to liquids. While cleaning the keyboard with a damp cloth (which I do every 3 months or so), I hold the keyboard upside down to try to ensure that gravity pulls the water away from the keys, rather than into the keys. This worked, but then several days ago, while cleaning the keyboard in this way, it rendered some of the keys permanently non-functioning.

I would suggest if you have Magic Keyboard, be very careful when cleaning using a damp cloth.



I wouldn't think anyone could argue that an electronic device which is not described as water resistant could be considered unfit for purpose when it gets wet and thus stops working.

Water resistant normally means you can place it under water without damage (eg a water resistant watch). Obviously Mac components are not water resistance as such, but you would expect them to survive cleaning with a damp cloth, or survive a few splashes of coffee.
 
That many words to simply explain that you're mad that non-water-resistant technology doesn't mix well with water. Sheesh!

Yes I am annoyed at the moment, but that's not the main purpose of starting this thread.

As I explained above, in UK law at least, there is the legal concept of a consumer product being fit for purpose. If you sold a car without windscreen wipers or headlights, this would not be fit for purpose, because cars have to function in the rain and at night.

So likewise, computers have to function in an office or home environment, where you have to expect the occasional coffee spill. And computers will also get grubby from use, so you would expect them to survive gentle cleaning with a damp cloth.

Thus my legal argument here is that Apple keyboards in their current form are not fit for purpose, and thus by UK consumer protection law, any keyboards that are destroyed by a normally innocuous splash of water should be replaced free of charge. But you would have to check the consumer protection laws in your own jurisdiction to see if they enshrine similar notions to the "fit for purpose" concept.

So the reason for this thread not just for me to let of steam, but is also to help others save money, so that rather than paying for a water damaged keyboard replacement out of their own pocket, they should try to use consumer protection laws to obtain a free replacement from Apple.



Here is another case of some splashes of water destroying a Mac keyboard:

In this case, a Mac laptop keyboard was destroyed by a few splashes of water, and the unfortunate owner was charged 248 euros by Apple to have the keyboard replaced. No suggestion from Apple that they are culpable, which I think is wrong, because I think they are culpable. Apple should take responsibility, and offer replacement free of charge, due to their legal responsibility of producing a product which is "fit for purpose".
 
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Common sense suggests that a user NOT have beverages close to a keyboard and that also the user be very careful, preferably avoiding the use of any liquids whatsoever when attempting to clean off a keyboard. Too bad when a user doesn't seem to grasp these simple principles.....
 
Actually, no, I wouldn't expect a keyboard to survive a few splashes of coffee.

Well I have higher expectations than you, especially when I buy a premium product like an Apple Mac. I expect that the high cost of the product to be reflected in higher quality construction.

I've been an Apple user for decades, in fact the first computer I programmed software on was an Apple II, back in the early 1980s. I've been an admirer of the ethos of Apple, because it's a company that has strived for perfection in any of its creations. Not only in the software, but also in its hardware.

A keyboard which can become instantly bricked on exposure to very small amount of water is not in my view the pinnacle of perfection. The Magic Keyboard is a great keyboard in nearly all respects, but unfortunately it's not sufficiently resistant to a few drops of water. That's it's Achilles heel. That's where it falls short.

If you spill a whole cup of coffee on the older types of computer keyboard, the dome-switch keyboards, they will usually continue working without failing whatsoever. Whereas with Apple's scissor-switch keyboards, even just 1 ml of water is enough to instantly destroy it.

It just requires a modification to the design to fix, and then the Magic Keyboard will be close to perfection.



Common sense suggests that a user NOT have beverages close to a keyboard and that also the user be very careful, preferably avoiding the use of any liquids whatsoever when attempting to clean off a keyboard. Too bad when a user doesn't seem to grasp these simple principles.....

Would you be happy to buy a car with no headlights and windscreen wipers, arguing that common sense dictates you don't drive a car in the rain or at night? I presume not, because you know that in ordinary usage of a car, it gets exposed to rain and darkness.

I don't know if you have ever worked in an office, but in all the offices I have ever worked in, people drink coffee all day long, and they generally have their cup of coffee on their desk next to them, right next to their keyboard. Whether you agree with this practice of having your coffee next to your keyboard or not, that's the actual reality in millions of offices around the world. I am surprised you never noticed this, but perhaps you have not been in an office.

So that's the environment that an office computer should be designed to operate in. If it cannot handle that environment, then I argue it is not fit for purpose. Just as if a car had no windscreen wipers, it would not be fit for purpose either.
 
Yes I am annoyed at the moment, but that's not the main purpose of starting this thread.

As I explained above, in UK law at least, there is the legal concept of a consumer product being fit for purpose. If you sold a car without windscreen wipers or headlights, this would not be fit for purpose, because cars have to function in the rain and at night.

So likewise, computers have to function in an office or home environment, where you have to expect the occasional coffee spill. And computers will also get grubby from use, so you would expect them to survive gentle cleaning with a damp cloth.

Thus my legal argument here is that Apple keyboards in their current form are not fit for purpose, and thus by UK consumer protection law, any keyboards that are destroyed by a normally innocuous splash of water should be replaced free of charge. But you would have to check the consumer protection laws in your own jurisdiction to see if they enshrine similar notions to the "fit for purpose" concept.

So the reason for this thread not just for me to let of steam, but is also to help others save money, so that rather than paying for a water damaged keyboard replacement out of their own pocket, they should try to use consumer protection laws to obtain a free replacement from Apple.



Here is another case of some splashes of water destroying a Mac keyboard:

In this case, a Mac laptop keyboard was destroyed by a few splashes of water, and the unfortunate owner was charged 248 euros by Apple to have the keyboard replaced. No suggestion from Apple that they are culpable, which I think is wrong, because I think they are culpable. Apple should take responsibility, and offer replacement free of charge, due to their legal responsibility of producing a product which is "fit for purpose".
Not going to pretend I read all of this, to be honest. It is not part of the "purpose" of an electronic device to withstand water unless explicit statements are made regarding water resistance.

My advice to you is stop subjecting your keyboards to coffee and water and you'll find they last much longer. I suspect Apple and any sensible legal system will say the same.
 
It's a keyboard.
If you have lost two, through similar treatment, why beat yourself to death? This is not a laptop where you don't have much choice about what you use (and still be reasonably portable)
Move on to some other keyboard. There's other designs out there that may tolerate your cleaning routines a bit better (and even those with the in-keyboard trays to help prevent foreign objects (and some liquid) from penetrating into the "guts".
Although I have never had a magic keyboard fail, I also don't often use them, preferring one of the "Das Keyboard" models. The magic keyboard goes in a drawer, if I need a spare. Here's the keyboard I like: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ZG9T62/
(bought one like it about 15 years ago. I expect it to keep working until I don't (work). I don't treat it particularly nicely, and it doesn't complain. It's pretty "click-y", which is what I want from a keyboard.)
 
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I'm not understanding. I have the same magic keyboard and i've cleaned it with a damp cloth. Never had a problem. And I would never presume spilling any amount of liquid on a device that has self contained lithium battery to be liquid resistant. And as far as I know there is not any explicit claims on the keyboards packaging stating as such.
Also "fit for purpose" seems like such a vague broad term. Your interpretation of the law doesn't fit with this products intended purpose and level of quality to fulfill said purpose. It's a wireless keyboard with bluetooth as it's form of communication with a self contained lithium battery. I'm pretty sure there are warnings in fine print that says not to expose it to liquids. I'd think you'd lose your case based on how you expect it handle liquid exposure vs Apples intended expectation of use and exposure by a reasonable persons.
 
I'm not understanding. I have the same magic keyboard and i've cleaned it with a damp cloth. Never had a problem.

I never had a problem cleaning my keyboard with damp cloth for a few years, but all it takes is a few more drops of water than normal to enter the keys, and the keyboard's kaput.

It could happen to you in future, and then you will also be facing the high cost of a new Magic Keyboard, which is nearly 3 times the cost it was in 2015 (and it was already expensive then). So do be careful when cleaning your keyboard.



It's a wireless keyboard with bluetooth as it's form of communication with a self contained lithium battery. I'm pretty sure there are warnings in fine print that says not to expose it to liquids.

My Magic Keyboard was not the wireless bluetooth model, but the wired model with a USB connection. Both types are referred to as the Magic Keyboard.
 
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I'm pretty sure there are warnings in fine print that says not to expose it to liquids.

Yes, that's right, Apple's recommendations for cleaning its products say:
Keep liquids away from the product.
Don't use aerosol sprays, solvents, or abrasives.

However, to my mind that's only further evidence the keyboard is not fit for purpose. Because any keyboard will get grubby with usage, and a grubby keyboard can only be effectively cleaned with water or solvents. Thus a keyboard which was fit for purpose would be designed so that it can be cleaned with a modest amount of water or solvents.

But Apple's products, according to these recommendations, have not be designed to handle cleaning with any liquid.
 
Well I have higher expectations than you...
Hence the exact reason of your annoyance.
Unrealistic expectations that are ...
tenor.png
 
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My Magic Keyboard was not the wireless bluetooth model, but the wired model with a USB connection. Both types are referred to as the Magic Keyboard.

Not so. No wired Apple keyboard has ever been given that name.

Only wireless peripherals have been graced with the Magic moniker, with the A1644 being the standard Magic Keyboard, or the extended A1843 Magic Keyboard with Numeric Keypad.

The predecessor to the A1843, the wired A1243, was released in 2007 with the Aluminum iMac, removed from public sale in mid-2017, and was originally known only as the Apple Keyboard, with the words "with Numeric Keypad" later appearing on the retail packaging, though still absent from the manual up until it was discontinued. That was to help distinguish it from a short-lived later version with the standard layout, also confusingly christened merely "Apple Keyboard."

In the U.S., the A1243 retailed for $49, while the current A1843 extended Magic models retail for $129/149 depending on color choice.

They are two distinct models, unequivocally.

FWIW, I've never spilled anything on my 2008 vintage A1243 that I'm typing this on now, but I do regularly clean it with a damp cloth, and won't engage is a discussion of what "damp" means.

As for the rest, you've already made up your mind, so good luck with that, but regardless of the original utterer, the notion that insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results, certainly applies here.
 
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Didn’t the ’Magic Keyboard with Numeric Keypac’ only get released in 2017, so don’t know how you lost your first one in 2015.

I bought mine as soon as it became available in 2017, I’m not even that careful with mine, and simply spray cleaning solution all over it, then vigorously dry it with a micro fibre cloth.

I’ve even got older ‘wired’ aluminium extended keyboard that had coffee/tea spilt on them, and they would still work fine after a quick clean had I not sliced through the USB cable when wrapping the cable around the keyboard.

Im also not sure about your ‘not fit for purpose’ rant, as your car would still have been ‘fit for purpose’ if it breaks down when you drive through a flood and suck up water into the engine. Maybe I should I be ranting that my wired keyboard is not fit for purpose as the cable frayed cut when I wrapped it around the sharp aluminium frame of the keyboard for travelling.
 
That's correct. Apple does not sell a wired keyboard (since the release of that Magic Keyboard in 2017)
And, quite a bit more expensive, but it is wireless, not wired -- so the one that you purchased in 2015 was the wired version (at a much lower cost). The newer keyboard is wireless, with rechargeable battery. That's where the difference in cost comes from. It's not some arbitrary price increase on the same product.
 
Not so. No wired Apple keyboard has ever been given that name.

Only wireless peripherals have been graced with the Magic moniker, with the A1644 being the standard Magic Keyboard, or the extended A1843 Magic Keyboard with Numeric Keypad.

You are right, a few days ago I looked at the Apple Store UK, and saw that the extended keyboard with numeric keypad is called the Magic Keyboard, that's why I thought the USB wired was called a Magic Keyboard.

But I've realized that this extended keyboard Apple sell now is no longer a USB wired device as it was when I bought it in 2015, but has been converted into a bluetooth wireless keyboard.



By the way, do you trust the wireless keyboard to operate when things go awry on your Mac? I sometimes help out friends and relatives with Macs when their Mac goes very wrong and needs some technical support, and I have come across circumstances where you get stuck because you want to issue one of the special startup key combinations (eg, Command-R to enter Recovery Mode), but the bluetooth wireless keyboard is no longer communicating with the Mac, and you cannot start up the Mac to do anything about it because the of the Mac has severe issues. So you then get into a catch-22.

The only way I have been able to fix Macs in these circumstances is to use a wired keyboard to issue to the startup key combinations.

Thus I do not feel comfortable with having only a wireless keyboard. Even if I were using a wireless, I would want to have a wired keyboard handy as a spare, in case things go wrong on the Mac. But it seems that Apple no longer sell a wired keyboard — see Apple Discontinues Wired Keyboard.

Of course you can use a Windows PC wired USB keyboard, but I would prefer to use Mac products.




That's correct. Apple does not sell a wired keyboard (since the release of that Magic Keyboard in 2017)
And, quite a bit more expensive, but it is wireless, not wired -- so the one that you purchased in 2015 was the wired version (at a much lower cost). The newer keyboard is wireless, with rechargeable battery. That's where the difference in cost comes from. It's not some arbitrary price increase on the same product.

OK, so then the price increase is more justified.
 
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Hence the exact reason of your annoyance.
Unrealistic expectations that are ...
TOO DAMN HIGH

Some people here seem to be promoting the idea that products with design flaws are good enough, and that you should not expect anything better.

Steve Jobs used to have an effective way of handling Apple staff with such lackadaisical attitudes: he'd sack them on the spot! That's why the Mac became an "insanely great" computer, because Steve only wanted employees who would relentlessly strive for perfection. I hope Apple never lose sight of that spirit.
 
Because no one here sees this as a design flaw. It's unreasonable expectation of liquid exposure. None of Apples marketing on their products suggests it is resistant to liquid. And as you observed in the fine print avoiding liquid exposure is recommended.
Windows Based Laptops on the other hand do sell products using liquid resistance as a selling point. (i.e. Panasonic Tough book) or similar tout such features. From my observation no Apple Keyboard product touts such a feature. And when Apple does make such claims they include in their marketing materials. Such as the Iphone having IP68 water proof ratings. Even keyboards that don't state liquid resistance as a marketing selling point have fine print stating not to expose to liquids. While some of those designs surly could take more liquid than others. It's in my view unreasonable from your expectations for any keyboard unless otherwise stated and claimed by their own documentation.
 
I also appreciate your point about wireless keyboards, and occasional losing contact, particularly at boot.
But, there's simply better (better feel, better touch, whatever you want to call it) keyboards out there that Apple doesn't make (and no real valid reason to stick with Apple's keyboards if you have technical reasons for not liking them :D )
I have no false hopes that a wireless keyboard will always function, and also prefer a wired USB for service work. There's no point in getting frustrated over a wireless keyboard that stops communicating for unknown reasons.
 
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It's unreasonable expectation of liquid exposure.

That's your personal view, and you have every right to hold it.

However, I was talking about the UK consumer protection law, as described by the UK 2015 Consumer Rights Act. And in particular, the fit for purpose section of that act.

So it would require some legal expertise, from someone familiar with the 2015 Consumer Rights Act, to determine whether, under law, a degree of splash resistance is a reasonable expectation or not.

Above I provided an argument why I think the Apple keyboard is not fit for purpose, based on the idea that it is not tough enough to survive the normal office environment in which it is intended to function.

But I am no legal expert, so I am not sure whether this argument might be legally valid under UK law.
 
Some people here seem to be promoting the idea that products with design flaws are good enough, and that you should not expect anything better.

Steve Jobs used to have an effective way of handling Apple staff with such lackadaisical attitudes: he'd sack them on the spot! That's why the Mac became an "insanely great" computer, because Steve only wanted employees who would relentlessly strive for perfection. I hope Apple never lose sight of that spirit.
I don't promote that design flaws are good enough, I just do not live with expectations that are outside of reality.

If you have high expectations on EVERY SINGLE THING in life, you will be let down quite a bit.

On the subject of the keyboard, if there are only a handful of options in the market for a waterproof keyboard, then it isn't normal to have this feature. That would be an upgrade from that particular company.
Expecting every keyboard manufacturer to all adopt the exact same upgrades across every model of keyboard offered is not, IMO, practical, nor a design flaw.

Say I don't like carpet. I don't buy a house covered in carpet. Or if I do purchase the house, I replace the carpet.
Or my vehicle doesn't sound the way I want, I replace the exhaust. Or buy a different vehicle from the beginning.
Or the restaurant I normally go to doesn't server the particular meal I want to eat. I go to another restaurant or cook it myself.

If you have a high value on something, don't buy something that doesn't fit that value and then complain about it. Buy what fits your specific want and be happy with it.

And Steve Jobs was a salesman. Period. Not the second coming. And what does a salesman do, they sell you on a product. Exactly the thing Steve Jobs did with everything. He used words to make you want to purchase something.
 
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Electronics and water do not mix, I fail to see how anyone would think otherwise. I use 99% Isopropyl Alcohol to clean mine, the interior, the exterior, the monitor, keyboards, mice, my eye glasses and any other thing I clean most times. It has never failed me.​
 
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