c) Truly end to end encrypted so Apple can't see them. But I guess that's never going to happen.
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Apple Makes iCloud Safari Bookmarks End-To-End Encrypted [Updated]
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iCloud Backup needs to become a ton more transparent and granular.
Photo end-to-end encryption is never going to happen.
That's a) in their scenario.
Me too.
That’s exactly what you will get if Apple implements the in-device hash check against known CSAM material, when iCloud Photos (and probably iCloud Drive too) is in use.
That is the whole point of doing it in-device, making it possible to have fully encrypted iCloud Photos.
If they don’t do the check in-device, then they will end up checking your files in the cloud, just like everybody else. And that means you can never have fully encrypted iCloud.
Exactly.
The worst case scenarios of some evil state trying to force Apple to use their own hash database are not totally ridiculous, of course.
But…if somebody has that kind of power, then they surely can, and will, force every Android OEM to implement the same mechanism. And demand full access to iCloud, Google Drive, OneDrive and so on. Or have it already.
It probably goes without saying that fully encrypted iCloud would not happen in China etc. anyway.
This is not the point, but a common assumption, that has not yet been mentioned by Apple. Sooo not a real argument, YET, if ever.
What’s the reason for doing it in-device is then in your opinion?
They could have gone the MS/Google/etc route and just do it in iCloud, but files can’t be encrypted all the time in that option.
But even that would have generated sensational headlines (because it’s Apple) and frenzy in MacRumours forums…until people would have realised that uh oh everybody’s been doing this for years.
You can just set a single strong password on notes, then you can always open the locked notes with FaceID (phone) or TouchID (on Mac). IDK if that works with 1 password, I don't use that.
I love locked notes - it's the most secure and most fuss-free way to have encrypted data.
A locked note by definition would be E2E encrypted... at least I hope so...
E2E is pretty hard to do, Apple is doing something very difficult here. icloud photos E2E encrypted would be cool but TBH if it comes at the cost of freaking CSAM then just don't do it. I don't want any spying device on the phone.
People who go by the small logical loop of "they will do it in the cloud anyway" don't realize that once there's spyware on your phone, it never leaves again, and the only thing it will do over time is expand its scanning to other things and expand its reporting to more authorities until it's your pocket H1tler...
And no there's no law coming requiring it; and if there was it would be in clear violation of all the privacy laws.
No, that is not exactly what we will get. Some of us don't want it to be ever possible for Apple to see our contents (photos, messages, or anything else) at ANY point from content creation to storage. What we want is TECHNICALLY possible, even easy. But as I admitted, we are not getting that because it is not done for some reason (legally? or some other reason). It is wrong to say, "That's the only way you will get encryption" if you mean it in the technical sense. The way Apple is going to do it is in fact technically more difficult. If you mean CSAM is the only way we are going to get some kind of encryption because Apple is UNWILLING to do it some other way, then you are right. Other companies scan in the cloud, yes, but I am talking about Apple. We are talking about what we want, not what will happen or has been happening.
They're trying to erect a totalitarian one world government control state.
You don't believe that "whacky" theory... well... how about you go take a look outside... we are well underway and right in the middle of it... read the anonymous open letter from Spartacus (google it)... it's all in there.
Last year it was a theory. This year it's no longer a theory. There are very strong forces going this way, these forces are easily strong enough to influence lawmakers and private corporations through very large funds.
The way any more restrictive law is sold is by first getting put on something everyone universally despises (murder, child porn, etc)... then later extend it to other bad things no one really likes... everyone's at this point way too lazy and lethargic to fight for something they don't care about... until it's their turn and you find yourself a fully boiled frog.
Sorry for posting something "political" in this forum, but the answer to the question "but why would they do it then?" is, unfortunately, 100% political.
How about neither and E2E my stuff, MY STUFF. How about that?
Why is this so hard to understand?
The in-device check allows just that - if the check is done in-device Apple will never see your photos and there is no need to make it even possible to decrypt them in the cloud.
Calculating the hash in-device and comparing it to a set of known hashes is not about “seeing” anything.
Please explain how Apple could offer full iCloud encryption and also check the files against known illegal content? You can‘t calculate the hash from encrypted files. Or you can, but hash comparison obviously won’t work at all.
So, what is the technically easy solution that you have knowledge of?
So you mean Apple doesn’t have to do this?
They don’t have to release proof of concept on device golden key scanning?
They don’t have to invite US/EU or any repressive government to craft laws to force more of this?
Yep, pretty much what I thought too.
What do you miss about people thinking Apple should never be doing anything like this at all.
Doing the wrong thing for an admirable reason is still doing the wrong thing.
It’s not hard for anyone to understand except you apparently.
First, you’ve created a whole orchard of straw men - rationalizing Apple’s stupidity here with 0 evidence for any of your claims. Since you are providing no evidence, your claims can be dismissed with no evidence.
That leaves us with the fact that Apple wants to introduce an on device scanning tool that nobody can guarantee 100% is not scanning their stuff. With other cloud providers, if I don’t sign up with their services, I know, with certainty, that they are not scanning my personal data. With Apple, that won’t be the case anymore.
Finally, e2ee with scanning at either end defeats the purpose of e2ee.
Is it though? If they had announced E2E encryption for photos together with the CSAM scanning, it would have changed the discussion. But they didn't.
Funnily enough, there are a number of E2E encrypted cloud storage services that don't scan your device (e.g. Tresorit, ProtonDrive, Sync.com, Filen.io).
There was absolutely no point to the CSAM fiasco unless E2EE was coming to Photos. Who knows what will happen now.