Apple Marketshare and 'Sales Guys'

[rdowns]

Originally posted by DGFan
You do realize that they are opening up Apple stores in some places, right? And that they are trying out a program in some Best Buy stores (before deciding whether to expand it), right?

Apple Stores are great but there are only 74 of them. To reach the masses, Apple will need to at least triple that number which would probably kill their profitability.

I don't have any hard numbers but I'd bet that much of America buys PCs at Best Buy, Circuit City and the other large national and regional electronics stores. No Apple products there, no consumer is going to buy them.

If you want consumer market share, you need shelf space. That's pretty much retailing 101. Switchers don't buy from web sites, they want to tough and try out a Mac before comitting.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Thank you rdowns, for some reason we have a lot of people that ignore that. and MorganX has hit the nail on the head. You cant have best of class price with worst of class performance. Mac Zealots you may continue.

 

[blueBomber]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Thank you rdowns, for some reason we have a lot of people that ignore that. and MorganX has hit the nail on the head. You cant have best of class price with worst of class performance. Mac Zealots you may continue.

Just to let you know, alot of these so called "mac zealots" rely on macs for their profession. Myself included. In my line of work, Windows users are the outsiders. And I do not consider the Macintosh line to have worst of class performance. At least all of Apple's computers come with at least half-competent graphic cards. Alot of pcs have integrated intel extreme chips that can't even match the most entry level video card.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

I use my mac for work but if Apple is screwing up ill say so. Apple is and has been screwing up the consumer line for awhile and i dont mind telling you that just as they are screwing up by not having product in consumer stores across the U.S. if the shoe fits.

 

[rdowns]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Thank you rdowns, for some reason we have a lot of people that ignore that. and MorganX has hit the nail on the head. You cant have best of class price with worst of class performance. Mac Zealots you may continue.

My Mac "zealot" credential are as good as anyone's. User since the SE and a big evangelist even though my sermons are poorly attended. Worked for a large NYC/Long Island reseller for almost 8 years and sold thousands of Macs. (Having some really big Mac accounts didn't hurt- Avis, Barnes & Noble, Canon USA to name a few but pushed them into companies of all sizes) Hey, Apple recognized me for my efforts with 2 trips. Not so much a zealot that I can't see Apple's flaws.

Despite all that, I can see the emporer is almost naked. Someone posted Apple's mission statement here recently (also used in all Apple press releases) and they are failing it big time. They are just not making PCs that people want, G5 excepted although there are/were bastardized models (how Apple).

As a user, I am disappointed with their efforts of late. As a shareholder (about 1,200 shares) I am also disappointed. I feel they have taken the consumer market for granted since the original iMac. I'd love a modern iMac (even willing to pay for a beautiful LCD that I can't use on my next Mac) but the poor excuse they try to foist on me today is pitiful (slow system bus, slow RAM, outdated processor, sh*t graphics card, only 2 USB ports). I can afford a G5 but it is too big a beast for me. Not crazy about its looks either.

I want what I know a lot of consumers (prosumers as some here like to call them) want and it's a headless/small tower/whatever with a G5, upgradable video card, lots of USB ports, 512MB RAM with a free slot. I'm not asking for a $500 box (not that Apple couldn't use one of those too) but one that is relatively state of the art with soem room to grow. Why won't Apple do this? Must they sell a monitor with every system. Hell, I'd probably buy an Apple one anyway.

And please Apple, expand your distribution. There are people who want to buy your products who don't live within an hour of an Apple Store or CompUSA. Maybe of more people could actually see and feel them, some of the ubiquitous falsehoods of Apple and Macs would die.

Whew, rant off.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

rdowns i couldnt have said it better, I have used macs for years but the business model they are using is flawed when you look at what should be the biggest segment. The consumer line. they should be selling 10 times as many of these machines as the so called pro line but they are not. they are doing something wrong. marketshare and number of sales has proven this. its not even up for debate its a fact. Apple has to correct this and shareholders know it. Ill stop the rant like you but at least we see the problem. does Apple?

 

[DeepIn2U]

Apple create a Paradigm shift.

Ok regarding Apple into the future I don't think its lack of innovation or how much innovation is needed. Case in point, iMac versions 1&2, eMac, PowerMac G5, OS X (even though most die hard Mac users hated it and didn't like change, eventually are now loving it), iPod all versions, XServe a whole new category (yes its been tride before but not with this much gusto), XServe Raid, unlimited user licensing! (more on this later), iSight, PowerBooks, iTunes Music Store, iLife 04......just to name a few. Thus far I think Mr. Jobs & Apple are doing fine in innovation along with research & development.

MarketShare....although I do have some thoughts as to what that is can something clearly define it please, and define it with how its used ONLY in the broad computer market, not just Apple and with current specs PLEASE to help us nobodies.

Now if installed user base is going to increase....I think a few minor things will need & WILL change first. (A) new line of consumer desktops. (B) considerable revision to consumer laptops, (C) Major revision to prosumer laptops, and (D) client/consumer perseption of what an APPLE can do.

Majorly in 2004-2005 though, as someone already mentioned is the adoption rate of Linux. Linux is taking huge in Corporations adoption because of the licensing fees and force upgrades that weren't necessary of Microsoft. Yes indeed IBM is helping along with a huge new crop of Desktop clones and corporations of RedHat and Novell's new acquired intellectual OS. However, Apple does have a plan, "UNLIMITED USER LICENSING" along with "24/7" direct help representatives.

A serious paradime shift is also needed to happen. Consumers got to stop thinking computers are mostly for games/music juke boxes. Apple has helped with the iLife software but they really need to push it further out there (Television, SuperBowl, etc) get it out to the masses more. Just like they do when a major Mr. Jobs keynote is emmininet, you can see ads everywhere for 6 blocks plus around the keynote site. Do this more on a monthly basis and do this around high-schools, colleges/universities. Furthermore, push the unlimited licensing of your OS X Server with XServe & XServe RAID machines along with the feature set (dynamic synchronization, Rendezvous!!, Distributed builds) of OS X in PowerMacs & Laptops. DO the same ad campaigne as is always done at the keynotes once a month, but do it in walking distance of Universities (the top notch ones like Berkeley, Harvard, Miami, Virginia hehe well they already know the deal!) and around corporate America. I want to see ads explaining the major differences (accurately) between UNIX and Linux (why 2/3 of the net is on UNIX NOT Linux and for so long). I want to see ads of XServes and XServe RAIDs around SAP's, Adobe's, Cingular Wireless', and Aspyr's headquarters stomping grounds, and I want to see it near Wall street.

Hit em hard Apple, and create that paradigm where corporations & users alike can see servers run by Apple computers, can see client systems interacting with those servers running the same software without considerable cost of employees and development time to tweak them like I picture with Linux (RedHat servers with YellowDog client boxes). Show them the power of Rendezvous in regards to an intranet and the power of OS X's UNIX underpinnings with distributed builds handling computational power while still efficiently running MS Word.

Stop using slogans like "its the MS Office for the rest of your life". Please make a headless Mac for corporations at a cheap price to go along with your XServes in an environment where distributed builds help these clients do their work (picture 4 thousand clients linked to 500 Xserves and 1000 RAIDs) to make it cost effective for corporations to eat these up. Hire more staff for corporate on-site support. Hold more online training for those of us switchers to handle ourselves in a windows/linux world.

Thrawt of Linux and send the penguin north!@!

 

[humantech]

Well, let me start by saying

There are some extremely good points being made-
Let me add my thoughts-
First a bit of background
1) I am an Apple specialist reseller
2) I am a paid mac consultant
3) I too have been playing with macs since they were apples
4) I Work ON and WITH macs every day ( as well as quite a few pc's in some of my cross platform offices)

Heres my perception.....Apples strategy is working. They are spending wisely, staying lean and growing their market. The market share #'s that get posted are WRONG.I have seen sales grow by over 100% year over year for the last three years running. I am Seeing pc switchers in droves and mac users who left returning. Their consumer models have what most consumers want. Simplicity. Respectable performace. Cool looks. Reasonable price. Only sold where they can be serviced, supported and staffed properly. The mindshare switch has already begun. No foolin gang. The old paradigm has left the building- its just taking awhile for the changes to become apparent enough for a lot of people to see-
I'm not alone- I belong to a nationwide consulting network and its happening everywhere. The growth is ALL over and accelerating. Its just a matter of time before people start to take notice-
I think the group here is Skewed when they talk of consumer lines and what they offer- most users here are seasoned computer users- We understand unix. Fonts. FPS in games and video. etc....
Face it folks- the VAST majority of the public doesnt care about this. They want computers to be more like consumer electronics. Thats where Apples going. The high tech underpinnings of the OS are much less important to most clients (yep- even the pros other than tech wannabes) than getting the work done quickly, efficiently and with some style and a feeling that they are using a quality product. As for the IT geeks who help make buying decisions, they are ALREADY in the know of a lot of Apples new tech and the word is already spreading- I have local colleges wanting me to train their IT staff so they can start migrating major systems to os x- large corporate clients also - again- I'm not alone....
Apple is repsonsible to three parties. Their customers, Their employees and their stockholders- They seem fairly balanced at this point amopngst the three. I think you'll see things get VERY interesting about mid-year when the ipod market begins to blow up ( that market is still in its infancy and will have apple logos in all the places they arent now. dont worry- there are good things getting ready to happen on the growth front)
As always, a pleasure and my 2 cents-

 

[SurgeDude]

Xbox

Some of the people talking about Microsoft and their "innovations" have become quite used to using the Xbox as an example. Well I beg to differ that the Xbox is a sign of MS innovation. On the contrary the Xbox is singlehandedly destroying the console market and I would venture to say helping to gut a the soul from consoles in general. Obviously these are strong statements but I don't feel they are unfounded. First off MS has (reportedly) attempted for years to coax both Sega (Dreamcast years) and Nintendo (currently) into either a complete buyout or atleast a mutual console. This as anybody with half a wit or more knows is common of MS. Second as well all know the Xbox is basically just a crappy PC built with commondity parts. Another thing is that MS is just unloading them becouse they can afford to take MASSIVE losses. Why? Becouse they know by killing everybody else they can pull a screwy deal like the Windows licencing scheme and consumers will be forced. As for the character of the Xbox, it is souless. Its few good exclusives are mostly from purchised companies (IE Bungie and Rare in the future). But as a whole Xclusives are rare for the Xbox (bad pun) and those that are released are often not great. Xbox has no established Mascot like Nintendo or Sega (past tence). Though I could also rant about Sony. The only good news to report perhaps is that the Xbox has hardly been a success, with sales even surpassed by the GameCube. The problem is that real companies that care like Nintendo and Sega (past tence) are being push out of the game. Giving MS yet another market to dominate is a bad idea for all of us. Not to mention that at the moment Xbox is often not the best choice for casual gamers.

 

[Sabenth]

xbox ?? market share? windows? apple? ---

Macantosh should have been a games console if i am not mistaken...

Apple beat MS to it again lmao..


More serious though Apples Market share or been seen share is a bit limited. Ok i live in Melbourne australia i do see a fair bit of apple stuff within Melbourne CBD (CITY BUISSINES DISTRICT) But i dont live there and were i do live. You dont see apple plain and simple. very fiew adverts tv or print... Nope got to say it apple australia just dosnt seem to exsist...

Also people keep going on about apples market share going down some say the following.

1.88percent others say 3.44percent which one is it.. anyone .. all that i know is i like the products and deffently the OS as in Panther..

 

[takao]

Re: Well, let me start by saying

Originally posted by humantech

I'm not alone- I belong to a nationwide consulting network and its happening everywhere. The growth is ALL over and accelerating. Its just a matter of time before people start to take notice-

The growth is ALL over and accelerating.
^^
insert "america" here.

the people which are buying apple here are either musicians (DJs),professional graphic users or *gasp* students studying computer science .... sounds funny but those are 95% of all apple buyers..
even my sister said (for her a iBook would have been perfect) that "she would never buy a mac"...everytime i give somebody the advice to get a mac i hear exactly that sentence ...from people who have no idea about computers (if somethings goes wrong im ending up fixing those computers) ....for them "apple users are elitist snobs" ... apple has image problem here with the consumers the would like to attract

some of you called me "whiny" before ... take a look outside of your "big america" (there are more people living in europe than in the US) and you will see apple messing up with their customers (not talking about switchers ... there are none)

...i hope apple is still in business the end of the year when i planned to buy my first mac....

 

[MacQuest]

Re: .3 cents

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
...Jobs speaks as if Microsoft isn't a monopoly...

What the FRICK are you talking about?!!! I hope this was a typo because that is exactly what Jobs is calling MS.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
In fact we aren't exactly seeing the masses flock to OS X is droves now are we?

Hold on, let me do the math.

2-5 individual customers a day, or 5-10 businesses a month [averaging 5-10 workstations and not including xServe/xRaid units sold that are replacing Windows NT 4.0 & 2000 servers]
x 5 days a week
x 1.5 years [and steadily increasing]
...well, why don't you do the math? If, of course, your calculator app doesn't crash your Windows OS.

Remember, these are only the numbers I've seen. Do you really think that I'm the only person seeing this? [I'll assure you that this is not the case].

There's a momentum, a synergy, that is being developed here but that won't be witnessed for awhile yet... but it's there. Of course, you can choose not to believe me, that's your choice. You only have my word to go on and unfortunately only time will tell. At which time I'll tell you all that I told you so.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Someone please show me some actual figures that clearly demonstrate that Apple's market share is improving and not slipping further into the hole.

The key to winning a war is the element of surprise. I'm sorry that you are not privy to the real world information that I am given and personally witnessing. Damn NDA's...

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
I’ve read that the G5’s are being eaten up but I question by whom. New Mac users or existing ones?

What did Virginia Tech use before they installed their 1,100 node G5 cluster? I don't think they were G4's. Do you think that it might appeal to a few companies out there that it only cost them $5.2 million to build the world's third fastest supercomputer in under a month? I think that there are a lot of companies that could use a lot less than 1,100 computers and would be happy to be running a much more stable, reliable, cross platform compatible OS than Windows, even if it's Linux. Unlike Linux however, Mac OS X provides a well rounded solution for servers as well as end user workstations.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
IMHO, Apple NEEDS to start attracting fresh blood in mass.

Agreed. [sarcasm]I sure hope this "starts" happening sometime soon [/sarcasm]...

In response to your comments about Longhorn, I agree with a lot of it. Keep in mind however that Jaguar made a HUGE part of existing Mac users upgrade to OS X and made a large number of Windows users switch. Panther is carrying on that tradition nicely.

I'll only say one thing though, and this is the number one reason that users [individual or business] switch:

APPLE MAINTAINS QUALITY CONTROL BETWEEN THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT PARTS OF YOUR COMPUTER; THE HARDWARE AND THE OPERATING SYSTEM.

QUALITY CONTROL = RELIABILTY = PRODUCTIVITY.

My point being that you spend more time being productive on a Mac rather than fixing the inherent problems that arise from running a GENERIC OS like Windows on any given hardware manufacturers' product. People are realizing that it doesn't really matter whether you have a Dell, Gateway, HP, Sony, Toshiba, or Frankensteined PC.

You are only as strong as your weakest link, and the weak link is Windows, NOT the hardware.

SEAMLESS INTEGRATION BETWEEN SOFTWARE TITLES THEMSELVES [ex. iLife, FCP, etc.], AS WELL AS THE OS THAT THEY RUN ON, AND ULTIMATELY THE HARDWARE THAT THE OS AND THOSE SAME PROGRAMS UTILIZE IS WHY MACS ARE KNOWN FOR "EASE OF USE" AND "RELIABILTY".

 

[MacQuest]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
1. Cleanup of customer service...

I agree that there have been a lot of complaints about this, but no more than I have had personally with my encounters with Dell and Gateway as a Windows network administrator for Xerox. Luckily, Consumer Reports' findings has shown this to be untrue for the past couple of years with Apple being a DISTANT first place over Dell, which are the majority of switchers I encounter [especially in the business sector].

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
2. Quality. Bad system boards in iBooks, bad monitors in 15” PowerBooks...

Yeah, I'll agree that there have been a few isolated incidents. I have a new 15" PB with white spots right now. I'll call Apple and probably get it back in the reported 2-3 day timeframe that everyone is reporting. Oh well...

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
...replaced or repaired hardware that just failed again, software updates that crash people’s systems, patches that do the same, fresh OS rollouts that lose people’s data, the occasional lawsuit.

I'm confused. When did we start describing perpetual Windows problems? Oh wait, "occasional lawsuit" as opposed to "neverending, mass amounts" that the criminally indicted [by the US Federal Department of Justice in 2001] Monopolysoft encounters. My bad, we are still talking about Apple.... [btw, that is the number one reason that companies are refusing to do/renew business with MS and switching to Mac OS X & Linux].

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Also time and again I hear the same thing over and over. Stay away from rev A products. This is not a good sign when you have to shy away from a product until version 2 comes out.

I don't know how knew you are to computers, but during my 14 years of professional experience on both platforms, this has always been the "rule", even with software. Until this 15" PB issue that I'm encountering, Apple products have always worked regardless of rev. or version number. It's nice to know however that at least you can rely on Apple to work out it's bugs by the 2nd rev. as opposed to the continual DOA's and malfunctioning units from the Wintel world that make there way through the entire lifespan of a product line. Remember, Wintel is a tech's best friend.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
3.Activly seek out popular software developers from Windows to sport their wares onto the Mac. Games are a good example.

Are you kidding me?!!! Have you been to Aspyrs' or InsideMacGames' website lately? Have you not noticed that A-list titles are getting released in a timely, if not simultaneous, manner. I can hardly wait for UT2004 Mac to come out at the same time as the Windows version, or that really nice looking "Abducted" to do the same. Battlefild 1942, Call of Duty, C&C: Generals, and the list goes on.

Which brings me to an interesting point. I think I've got a pretty good idea of your age now, or demographic, which is why I've always told people that if they don't expect their computer to be anything more than an overpriced gaming console or a glorified typewriter, and they place no emphasis on quality or reliability, then by all means get a Windows computer.

Fact is, that a big reason that existing Mac users who have always relied on their computers to be primarily productivity tools are starting to see these formerly Windows only titles, ranging from games all the way up to corporate and enterprise solutions, is because of one thing. Say it with me:

SWITCHERS!!!

That's right. Individuals are realizing that even though they have graduated to a Mac because they require quality, reliabilty, ease of use and productivity at a higher level [beyond MS Office ] such as iLife, they still want to be able to do the few things that their Wintels are good for, like playing games.

THANKS SWITCHERS!!!

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Lets see some of that hardware do its thang.

Agreed. If a personal computer like the dual 2Ghz G5 spanks a maxed out, server class dual 3.2 Xeon, can you imagine what kind of damage our Dual 3Ghz G5 will do in the next few months? Oh joy!!!

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
4.More switch like advertising campaigns. NOW. Do not wait. With the rampant virus outbreaks on Windows 2K, and XP this is a prime time to get people to consider the Mac. They can’t sit around on this opportunity.

Agreed. The silence is killing me too, but the best, and cheapest form of advertising is doing it's job very well at the moment; word of mouth. I'm torn between Apple being all flashy and "shoving it" in Windows' users faces, or if they should continue to invest their money into R&D and continue to release innovative, ground breaking, industry leading products.

Personally, I like the idea of Apple's partnership with Pepsi and HP. I know that those companies will advertise and Apple will get some exposure through them if they don't do something themselves.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
This is more of a wish list item more then anything but I would kill to see a low scale G5 (Scaled down 1Ghz G5 anyone?) in an all in one iMac that comes with 384MB of RAM, CD burner, and a 30GB hard drive that runs for $599. Such a beast would set the world ablaze and would fly off the shelves faster the Apple could produce them.

I agree that it would have that effect as well. I disagree that Apple would market itself that way. The 17" and 20" iMacs are selling CONSISTENTLY, to SWITCHERS at 3 - 4 times that price, thus keeping the iMac profitable.

No one is going to argue that volume economics, or that imitating Taco Dell with their cheap .99 menu like offerings is a way to do business. It's just not Apple's way. The people are moving up to us, we don't really need to drastically move down to them.

As long as Apple continues to "build it, "they will come".

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
I’d wager that Apple would capture 2-3% of the market within a year.

I'd wager that we're already there despite the conflicting reports. I'd also wager that Apple won't make a lot of noise about it's marketshare until it doubles at [arguably, of course] 10%. Probably around the 5 year anniversary of OS X in early 2006. This will also steal thunder from the Longhorn unveiling which is now slated at about that time, assuming of course that MS doesn't postpone that date as well. [A couple of years ago, wasn't Longhorn slated to be released in late '04? ]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
People want Macs. I know. I’ve sent more then a few people into the Mac store at the Mall of America. All come back with the same answer. It’s too expensive. And sorry guys but the eMac is a dud when compared to a similarly priced $800 PC.

Really? The stories me and my co-workers have heard the past couple of years is "I used to own [or use] a Mac in [some point in the past]. I switched to Windows computers in the mid-90's [usually because their workplace did] or I switched to Windows in 97-98 when the Internet started becoming really popular. I've gone through [average] 3 computers since then [6-7 years] and I'm tired of buying new machines every [again, average] 2 years. I'm also tired of all the problems I have to deal with for the short time that I've owned those computers and they're not worth a dime if I try to sell them. Now I've got a digital [pick any of the following] ; digital still camera, digital video camera, mp3 player [usually iPod of course] and I know I can't trust a windows computer that can't work reliably on simple things to do more difficult things reliably like photo editing, video editing, dvd authoring, etc. I know Macs are more expensive, but if they work reliably, and are easier to use because of that reliability, then maybe it's worth it."

This is when they are told that Mac users keep their computers [on average] 2-3 times longer [4-6 years] than windows users keep theirs, and that they work reliably throughout their lifespan. Then they are shown the iLife applications and guess what?!

HELLO SWITCHER!!!

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Style is not enough.

You'd be surprised how much "power" the wife has nowadays in the computer buying process since they tend to be the most vocal when something doesn't work properly. Typical scenario: the wife finds the iMacs looks appealing, and they both are amazed at how easy it is to do things that they would otherwise have no idea how to do on a Windows computer because they don't know which applications to buy that are anywhere near as good as what Mac users get bundled with their computer [price justification?, I think so].

Even if they do, they know that the windows photo app that's made by "X" manufacturer isn't going to play nicely with their video app made by "Y" manufacturer, and even less with their un-user friendly dvd authoring software made by "Z" manufacturer.

As opposed to the Mac experience:

Software:
iTunes
iPhoto
iMovie
iDVD
* developed by Apple

Operating system:
Mac OS X
* developed by Apple

Hardware:
iLine, eLine, PowerLine
* developed by Apple

QUALITY CONTROL = RELIABILTY = PRODUCTIVITY.

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
*dives into the bunker and waits for the explosion*

BOOM!

 

[MacQuest]

Re: Re: Well, let me start by saying

Originally posted by takao
The growth is ALL over and accelerating.
^^
insert "america" here.

Okay, we get it. You're apparently pissed off that Apple hasn't made it's way to Austria yet.

In all fairness, they would naturally, as a business, need to focus on the larger markets first, like maybe Japan.

Here's an exerpt from an article:

Japan Sales Up 50% With 64% New Apple Customers

Apple has been scoring big in Japan with the iMac and Apple confirmed this with some hard numbers yesterday.

Apple's CFO Fred Anderson announced that Apple's sales have grown by 50% in Japan, compared with 27% around the world and 19% in the US.


In an even bigger bombshell, Apple said that 46% of Japanese iMac buyers were first time buyers with 18% being classified as PC converts! Those two figures are simply amazing! With a big increase in sales adding to Apple's clout, 64% of iMac purchasers are new to the Mac market greatly expanding Apple's installed user base.

 

[ionas]

well actually

daimler took over crysler not the other way around ;p.

 

[takao]

Re: Re: Re: Well, let me start by saying

Originally posted by MacQuest
Okay, we get it. You're apparently pissed off that Apple hasn't made it's way to Austria yet.

yeah those numbers spound great ... still hoping for mac stores in europe
that would be really great ...at least more apple selling retailers (just checked there are more than a few months ago) i guess we just have to be patient ...i hope for the best !!!

(german speaking market has about 80 million germany + 8 million austria + a few million in switzerland = sums up over 90 million thats not a small market ;-) )

edit: i forgot to mention that i am considering to buy a iBook in switzerland (VAT : 2,5%) and swim across the rhine with it to save those difference (VAT is here about 20%) ... ;-)

 

[MacQuest]

Re: Well, let me start by saying

Originally posted by humantech
I am Seeing pc switchers in droves and mac users who left returning.

OOH, OOH, OOH!!! GOOD POINT humantech!!!

I've been so busy focusing on pointing out the full on switchers [those who have never used a mac, which is rare], that I've neglected to point out the far more common "RE-SWITCHER".

These are THE BEST!!!

Well, I actually kind of made mention of them in my post just above where I state that the conversation usually starts out with them saying, "I used to own [or use] a Mac in sometime in my past [usually late 80's to mid 90's]..."

I LOVE these people because they made the decision to switch to Windows, only to find out what a big mistake it was 6-7 years and 3 Wintels later, and now are re-introduced with Mac OS X, which is way better than the last time they used a Mac [usually Mac OS 7.5 or 8.6] in the mid-late 90's.

The best part being that Mac OS X makes Mac OS 9 [and prior] look like $h!t, and yet windows had never even caught up to Mac OS 9 in terms of stability [even though we Mac users know it wasn't really that stable unless you compared it to windows] in large part because of it's lack of quality control with any given hardware configuration.

LOL!!!

 

[takao]

finally my prayers have been heard...
News From heise.de:

Apple-Germany Manger Frank Steinhoff announced this morning that Apple will be participating at the MacExpo 2004 17.-19. June after 6 years of absence. They will show "a broad pallet of solutions" and are helping to organise the Expo.


translatet fro mgerman (bad ..but better than me perhaps ;-):
http://translate.google.com/transla...ww.heise.de/newsticker/data/jes-27.01.04-000/

 

[MacQuest]

Originally posted by rdowns
Apple Stores are great but there are only 74 of them.

Yeah. "Only" 74 stores were opened in the past "only" 2.5 years, during a horrible economy that is just know starting to improve. On a related note [on the other end of the spectrum, but during the same time 03.18.03]:

"Gateway cuts jobs, closes stores

Poway-based PC maker Gateway Inc. says it's eliminating the jobs of 1,900 people and closing 80 of its retail stores [29%]."

That's just one example of how Apple manages to grow while others diminish.


QUOTE]Originally posted by rdowns
To reach the masses, Apple will need to at least triple that number which would probably kill their profitability.[/QUOTE]

Nah. Apple clearly stated when they launched their retail initiative that they were going to open 100 Apple stores. That number combined with CompUSA's Apple Shops [224 stores nationwide and now staff Apple employees], MicroCenter, Fry's Electronics, and everyone else including BestBuy [FutureShop in Canada] will be enough to increase Apple's presence for the time being IMO.


QUOTE]Originally posted by rdowns
I don't have any hard numbers but I'd bet that much of America buys PCs at Best Buy, Circuit City and the other large national and regional electronics stores.[/QUOTE]

Nope. As more people take their computers more seriously, they want to talk to actual computer knowledgeable staff, not some inexperienced, part-time high school kid who's just killing time to make a paycheck and happens to be working at a home appliance/electronics store. That's why CompUSA is required to staff Apple employees in their Apple Shops instead of generic windows only employees.

Originally posted by rdowns
If you want consumer market share, you need shelf space. That's pretty much retailing 101.

True to an extent, but largely depends on what is being sold. KNOWLEDGEABLE STAFF and PROPER REPRESENTATION is COMPUTER retailing 101.

QUOTE]Originally posted by rdowns
Switchers don't buy from web sites, they want to tough and try out a Mac before comitting. [/QUOTE]

True. That's why every Apple Store opening has been met with huge crowds of just as many switchers as existing Mac users.

Paraphraing a comment by Steve Jobs recently, "every market that Apple has gone into, it maintains over 90% marketshare dominance".

Apple has only aggressively gone after the consumer market in the past 2.5 years, specifically with the iApps and the Apple Stores. I told people back then [mid 2001] not to expect any major marketshare increase until approx. 5 years from then, in '06] .

If you don't think that things are changing, then you will have to wait and see.

I, on the other hand, know otherwise.

 

[Jonnod III]

You'd be surprised how much "power" the wife has nowadays in the computer buying process since they tend to be the most vocal when something doesn't work properly. Typical scenario: the wife finds the iMacs looks appealing, and they both are amazed at how easy it is to do things that they would otherwise have no idea how to do on a Windows computer because they don't know which applications to buy that are anywhere near as good as what Mac users get bundled with their computer [price justification?, I think so].[/QOUTE]

Gawd! What sexist tripe!

 

[Jonnod III]

Just a few thoughts...

Beware of percentage changes... the drop in market share from the peak may well be because the peak was unsustainable/artificially attained etc. etc.

No-one has mentioned cost of ownership - that's the mpg and service costs of your Porches and Beamers... in the motor analogy Apple leaves those guys behind because a Mac's cost of ownership is less than the Windows ones...

a large number of PC users have them foisted upon them by company policy. So their wishes don't ever feature on market share figures, as they don't buy. Would be interesting to get a view of what workstation users would PREFER.

If the Mac is not in the workstation market - then there is a case for these to be taken out of market share figures - I liked the MacUser UK suggestion that they be called 'WC's The Porchse market share averall may well be under 1% - but take out the salesmen's fleet cars the family cars etc and I'm sure they have a healthy marketshare...

Most of the readers of this forum are not normal people. You only have to look at the mentions of memory/display cards/headless pcs etc!!! You don't hear phrases like that on the Clapham Omnibus.

Who gives a damn if the machine is $200 more than a pc - it's gorgeous!!!!

 

[SiliconAddict]

Re: Re: .3 cents

Originally posted by MacQuest
What the FRICK are you talking about?!!! I hope this was a typo because that is exactly what Jobs is calling MS.

Quote from the article:

And then their monopoly ended with Windows 95. They behaved like a monopoly, and it came back to bite them, which always happens."

That sure sounds as if Jobs is claiming the monopoly is broken.

Hold on, let me do the math.

2-5 individual customers a day, or 5-10 businesses a month [averaging 5-10 workstations and not including xServe/xRaid units sold that are replacing Windows NT 4.0 & 2000 servers]

Where are you getting your numbers?
I've seen plenty of numbers being spit out but no hard facts on how many new customers are switching. And as a side note 2-5 customers per day won't sustain apple. Apple needs a few HUNDRED per day.

What did Virginia Tech use before they installed their 1,100 node G5 cluster?

As beautiful as the VT cluster is it does not make a damn bit of diff to the average consumer, most of which haven't even heard of the Big Mac, and even less so for businesses who need workstations not servers. The average desktop in the work world doesn't need a whole heck of alot of horsepower. My company is running 4 year old Dells that run perfectly fine. (As soon as I upgraded them above 128MB of RAM that is.)

Agreed. [sarcasm]I sure hope this "starts" happening sometime soon [/sarcasm]...

I love how people blow in here with the numbers and KNOW everything. I'll hold out a bit of hope that you aren't BSing me but frankly a lot of people use the NDA as an excuse. People are now using market share numbers of .xx% when you have to focus on such a thing that smells like desperation. When someone can claim that Apple's market share has jumped from x% to y% with some hard data backing that claim up I will believe.

In response to your comments about Longhorn, I agree with a lot of it. Keep in mind however that Jaguar made a HUGE part of existing Mac users upgrade to OS X and made a large number of Windows users switch. Panther is carrying on that tradition nicely.

APPLE MAINTAINS QUALITY CONTROL BETWEEN THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT PARTS OF YOUR COMPUTER; THE HARDWARE AND THE OPERATING SYSTEM.


QUALITY CONTROL = RELIABILTY = PRODUCTIVITY.

You mean like the QC used for 10.2.8 that killed a number of systems? You mean like the dreaded filevault data corruption issues? You mean like the corruption issues that occurred on some firewire harddrives? You mean like some of the security patches that have seriously degraded performance on some systems? You mean like those white spots on the LCD of more then a few 15" PowerBooks released last fall? You mean like the bad system boards on iBooks?
If you are talking QC of another sort I would really love to know what you are talking about because I do NOT see it.

As for your comment on Jaguar. Panther was a .x release. It wasn't a total revamp of the OS from the ground up like OS X.0 was. I've read more then a few posts and articles stating that 10.2 is what 10.0 should have been from the beginning. The main theme that seems to permeate almost all of these posts/articles was that 10.0 had “potential”. That potential is finally starting to be realized in 10.3.

You are only as strong as your weakest link, and the weak link is Windows, NOT the hardware.

Hence the reason for my concern. 9x was a nightmare. NT was a ray of light. 2K was hope. XP is frustrating but salvagable. Longhorn is [Fill in the blank in 2006-7] The ease of use and reliability reasons for using a Mac could be drastically diminished in the coming years.

 

[benpatient]

i guess i just expected a higher degree of intelligence here, but honestly most of you guys seem stuck up your own @sses and blind to reality. There are not "droves" of windows users switching to Mac. More windows users die of old age every day than switch to mac.

As to "cost of ownership" I'll just go based on personal experience. In the last 5 years, I've had 3 different Windows PCs at home, and 3 different Macs at work.

I can count zero fingers the number of major problems i've had with the PCs, and i built all but one of them. Between 3 machines, i had to re-install the OS 1 time in 5 years on one machine because something got hosed. I've never, ever, had a hardware failure with the exception of a 12 dollar 56K modem that got blasted by a storm, and it didn't even mess up anything else on the machine.

Now, at work, where instead of power gaming I do power graphics work, I've had the following problems:
OS 9: Corrupt system file that slowly ate away at what turned out to be a completely perfect hard drive.
OS 10.1 refusal to complete an install on a PM G4 tower unless i removed all of the apple-sourced RAM and used my own 3rd party RAM, which worked fine.
A 900 Mhz iMac (shudder) that destroyed 3, count them 3 hard drives in as many months before I took it back and demanded the money back.
4 OS 9 hosings that required a re-format and installation of the OS.

Now you are all going to tell me that i should have been on OS X the whole time and blah blah blah, but Quark didn't work at all in OS X till this past fall, and considering the number of quark users that are on a Mac, that's a terrible, terrible turn-around time for the most-used design program in the industry. The fact that OS X couldn't keep it's dot revisions together probably had a huge amount of impact on this.

Panther is the first revision of OS X that is actually worth paying for. I can actually WORK on it, which whatever the claims, was not really possible on jaguar or 10.1.

Most of you sound like you've never even been around when a dell or a compaq was taken out of the box.

You're on the internet in 5 minutes, tops. It's really not a deal at all. The plugs are all color coded, and you match the 4 different colors, you plug in the monitor and the box, and you hit the button on the front. Windows loads. you set up your ISP if you need to do that, and you're off. MS programs that you buy like Office or Works or whatever come pre-loaded, and they just work. It's not this big mystical, frustrating, techinical mess that you all seem to think it is.

I BUILT 2 computers in less time than you guys think it takes to unpack a PC.

The second one, I think it took me all of 2 hours from opening individual boxes to booting the OS install. Of course that takes 20-30 minutes, but again, it's painless with XP, and next thing you know, the little "welcome to windows" thing is popping up and it's just as annoying as the "register your mac" screen that pops up.

My last machine was built at home this past summer, and I installed XP Pro on it. I've not had to do a reinstall yet. I've had one bad driver, but it was an alpha leak, so that's what i deserve. even that rolled back after a quick trip to "safe mode."

If I wasn't a creative professional who worked in an industry that is 80% apple users, I probably wouldn't be typing this on a mac right now.

You guys scour the internet looking for a mac reseller that gives you a price lower than the apple store, and you think the average consumer is going to pick the "cute" machine even though it is a full 90% more than the non-cute machine that to their own eyes performs on the same level.

 

[spullara]

Apple marketshare doesn't matter. You shouldn't care.

Read my rant about this very question:

http://homepage.mac.com/spullara/rants/

Sam

 

[applebum]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
How is $799 for an eMac a hi-end PC price? Dell has lower-end computers that sell for less than eMacs, but their hi-end computers, computers that are comparible to the top end G5, sell at a comparible cost to the dual 2gig G5.

Lethal

Ok - I went to the Dell site. I found on their page a computer with monitor for $449. However, to make the comparison fair, I bumped the specs up to just what the eMac has - nothing more. It came out to be $835.

Should Apple try to compete in the sub $700 market? I don't think so. Most people who know anything about computers aren't going to go with the minimum specs that the el cheapo computers have. And once you bump up those specs just a bit, then Apple is priced right with them. Those real cheap computers are throw aways - people buy them and then almost immediately start looking at the next higher model. Mainly because they want to do more with their computers. I don't believe that Apple needs to be competing at the lowest level. If you want to try out an inexpensive Apple, then buy you a good used older model for $400 or so. As long as it has plenty of memory and OSX, you will get a taste for Macs.

These cheap computers are also where the market share gets skewed. Apple will never have great market share as long as there are $200 PC's running Windows. I wonder what the market share would look like if they did it by household? I know of many people that have 2 or 3 PC's and a Mac. Wouldn't it be interesting if they found that 25% of all households with computers had a Mac? That would certainly silence the marketshare critics.

And Jobs comments to me seem to be saying that a company cannot focus exclusively on profits. Profits today are not a good predictor of future success. You want to have a long term plan that keeps profitability but also raises marketshare. Itunes leads to Ipods leads to Mac computer purchase. And we all know there is no better salesperson for the Mac than a current Mac user. Profitability simply keeps you in the game - just ask Gateway how important profitability and marketshare are. I bet if they were honest, they are envious of where Apple is today.