I never said "well something has to pay for App Store infrastructure", that's what I meant.
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Apple Might Be Forced to Bring Fortnite Back to U.S. App Store
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I never said "well something has to pay for App Store infrastructure", that's what I meant.
It is really hard not to point out the bad faith argument you are trying to use here. I wish you understood the irony of some of your own sentences.
Allas, I can't compete with the App Store becaues Apple doesn't allow me to launch an App Store in the US. It is very unlikely that I will be able to establish a new OS due to the fact that I need developers to make Apps for it, something even Microsoft has failed to do, which is showing how tight iOS' and Android's grip is on the OS market.
This all just shows how hard it is for newcomers or even established players (like Windows Mobile, Symbian, SailfishOS, to name a few) to compete, and why regulation is very much necessary.
It must be concerning for Apple that the Appeals Court has not issued an injunction to stop the judge's order pending review. They usually do that within a few days. it's been almost two weeks. Apple's ultimate goal is probably to take this to the Supreme Court, where they may find a more favorable ruling.
Well then why not make your own hardware and make sure it's in 1.3 billion of people's hands and I will happily give it a fair shot and if it's better than Apple's, I'll stick to yours. Where the problem? Windows Mobile, Symbian, they all had their shortcomings and were FAR inferior to iOS. You will only win if you make something better. Companies tried, companies failed, not because they couldn't outcompete Apple for Apple's size and marketshare, but because they failed to make something better. Easy.
I'm not trying to offend you, although it seems I have, so sorry for that. I'm just honestly baffled why people go to bat for big businesses that are taking advantage of them.
Cool, but you're still contradicting yourself.
30% is perfectly fair! You were lucky to take home 30% in the old days of software via retailer. Even with a direct management model we in the 50% profit / costs range!
This is PART of what the Appstore does for me as a developer for the 15% cut on my Free app IAPs. ( <$1million per year - wish I was pay them 30%!! )
One binary reaches 175 country- or region-specific storefronts in up to 40 languages, with Apple handling the hosting, CDN delivery, and storefront localization.
The Store sees 650 Million+ weekly visitors, giving even a solo developer access to an audience larger
It automatically calculates, collects, and remits VAT/GST or digital-services taxes in 70 + jurisdictions, and surfaces correct prices in 900 price tiers.
Built-in anti-fraud, refund handling, and subscription retention tooling mean developers never touch PCI data or chase chargebacks
More than 250 000 APIs (HealthKit, Metal, Core ML, Vision OS, etc.), Xcode, Swift/SwiftUI, sample code, design resources, and WWDC/lab sessions
Apple hosts key back-end services you can tap for free or at cost: Push Notifications (APNs), Sign-in with Apple, Game Center, iCloud sync, RealityKit/ARKit assets, and so on.
Apple Ads / Search Ads give optional paid reach across the Today tab, Search tab, search results, and product pages with high conversion rates, plus attribution APIs.
Automatic crash symbolication, refund APIs, server-to-server notifications, and subscription grace-period tooling.
Global 24/7 customer-support and payment-dispute handling for end users, so developers rarely field billing emails themselves.
Compliance updates (new tax rules, currency-rate shifts, privacy requirements, EU DMA/DSA rules) are absorbed by Apple’s back end with no code changes required from you.
So don't think that Apple is just diving into a big ol' pile of gold like Scrooge McDuck. The sheer amount of APIs alone are worth the money as is the 2 Billion potential customers Apple provides that otherwise I would not have access to.
Epic want's all this completely FREE... If it was your real shop would you let someone come in and demand to setup their own stall?
Finally someone with common sense. And I assume you're still able to publish on Apple's platform because you aren't sneaky and didn't intentionally break Apple's rules to make Apple look bad, and you aren't greedy and are happy with what you get instead of unhappy with what you don't get.
That’s what appeals are for.
That’s what appeals are for. And, there’s one corporation who believes something should happen, against another corporation that believes another thing should happen. I wouldn’t have or lose faith in the US Court system because two corporations with the budget, afford themselves of a full defense or prosecution.
There are many regional courts that could certainly have better judges, in most of those places it’s up to the people to vote for better judges (it may require a raise in salary, and support staff, to encourage better quality).
Whether there’s a court case (there probably is in many states) or not, it is definitely a practice open for public policy to be made.
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Not really.
I don't think anyone will deny that iOS is Apple's intellectual property, and they are well within their rights to charge developers whatever they want. It could be 50% or even 70%. Point being these terms were made known upfront and developers have the choice of whether to accept them or not. Nor has Apple ever tried to change the terms of the deal since the inception of the App Store.
That's why Apple won their initial lawsuit against Epic while Google lost. It's not about whether the terms were "fair" or not, but whether they subsequently tried to renege on the original agreement (Apple never did, while Google tried to).
It is not contradictory to agree that 30% is fair or 50% is unfair while also acknowledging that Apple could well have decided to charge any amount they wanted at the time they started the App Store.
Apple can even charge 100% in their AppStore, as it's their AppStore. - IF they give the devs a chance to distribute their Apps elsewhere. So they (and the customers) might still decide themselves where to purchase their Apps at. But seeing Apple fighting against this opening confirms, that even they noticed that their behavior is anticompetitive. My parents would be very likely to use a subscription via Apple AppStore, I wouldn't as I see no point on giving them 30% commission for nothing, when I can just i.e. use Netflix Web.
I think it's just a matter of time until they get so much pressure to open up third-party-stores outside of EU, which then will be a very good day. intellectual property blablabla, yes. But if you are a monopolist (which, in fact they are as nearly 100% of iOS Apps are distributed via the App Store), you have to stick rules and cannot claim "I dont like you so I dont do business with you"-anymore.
At infinity
Apple sells all of this for 99$/year.
And Epic is able to provide 100% of those services to themselves. Epic doesn’t want those services from Apple.
“Apple can charge whatever they want as long as they also give their intellectual property away for free”
No, Apple is not “in fact” a monopolist. Words have meaning.
when Tim Sweeney drops dead, yes.
They got banned for breaking the T&Cs at the time, not because Apple doesn't like Epic.
Apple is in it's position simply because nobody else came up with any better alternative to the iPhone with iOS. You bought your iPhone knowing that the App Store is the only App Store.
Apple is under no obligation to allow 3rd party app stores in their OS. It's their OS, they created it, they continue to develop it for their own money, and they can allow or not allow what they see fit. They created the iPhone and iOS for mainly their own profit, not mainly for Epic's profit.
I don't want to offend anyone but I sense a lot of entitlement from people on Epic's side of things. Apple doesn't owe you anything, you don't have and shouldn't have any power to dictate what Apple does with their OS. You bought their hardware knowing that Apple's licensed OS is the only OS you can use and you accepted these terms with your purchase.
It's not Apple's responsibility to allow devs to distribute their apps elsewhere, whether it's on their OS or in general. Apple created the ecostystem, AppStore where millions of developers can distribute their Apps and make some money. Epic should be grateful it had a chance to become as big as it is thanks to Apple's efforts to develop a word class hardware and operating system. If Apple doesn't want to allow 3rd party AppStores to be installed on iOS, even if it's because they won't earn money off that (which by itself is a very valid and reasonable argument), only Apple alone should have power over that decision.
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Apple is as much of a “monopoly” as Nintendo is with their switch platform.
Ah the classic whataboutism of gaming consoles. I think hardly anyone would be opposed to them opening up. But Apple-fans like to bring it up, while ignoring the fact that iOS (and Android) is a way larger platform, with a way broader usecase, a diverse audience, and is becoming essential to modern life.
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What else? Tell me any other way to download Apps on iPhone..Oh wait.
@thiscatisfat
Once a company holds a dominant market position, as Apple effectively does with iOS, different rules apply. It's no longer just about "who owns what," but about how that power affects competition, innovation, and consumer rights. The EU (luckily) already noticed, US respectively DoJ/FTC are next to.
In fact, when a single company controls both the hardware and the only allowed software distribution channel, that's not just a business model — it's a gatekeeping role. Microsoft and Google also went through that in the past, as Microsoft forced everything to be based on internet explorer. So why again shouldn't - the same rule - apply to Apple?
Also the argument "you agreed to it when you bought the iPhone" doesn’t make any anticompetitive behavior right/legal. If a car manufacturer sold you a car that only allowed you to refuel at its own gas stations (with absolutely no alternative) would you also be in favor of that?
Don't forge that iOS/i-Devices are practically useless bricks without Apps. Developers, big and small ones, bring enormous value to Apple’s platform, and it’s reasonable for them to expect fair access and freedom of distribution, not to be forced into one tightly controlled and highly taxed channel. Again, if Apple wants to even charge 99.99999% of commission, they can. But then they should give the developers/users the choice to get their stuff from alternative channels. As you have the choice in the supermarket to either buy off-brand or branded stuff. Nobody is demanding that Apple give up the App Store — just that it allows other options alongside it. And it has also nothing to do with Epic as well, as every developer benefits. If developers still want to distribute their apps solely on the AppStore nobody prevents them.
And for the often called "security" aspect. Why again should macOS users be more technically savvy than iOS users? (Or better said, why should iOS users be less technically savvy than macOS users?) And even if, why should the majority suffer from this dumb and meaningless decision?
Is apple causing the courts to force developers to publish apps on their store? nope.
Funny how Apple isn't causing the courts to force developers to develop for their platform
iOS has become a platform that cannot be ignored if you want to serve your customers. No-one is forced, but it is another example of how Apple is likely a monopolist. Either serve your (iOS) customer or not. There is no real choice for distribution.
See also on how many fronts this wrings. As a developer you can't make your customers change a mobileOS/platform, nor change store where you are not restricted to Apple's rediculous demands. As an iOS user you can't choose from stores that e.g. provide a good platform for foss apps, or allow for cheaper subscritions, or allows you to download browsers with proper engines, etc.
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The reason why it’s allowed on macOS is because they have less customers on the platform so they can be less demanding
Where as on iOS they are in a stronger position so they can insist on this type of dominance to customers
So you finally admitted that Apple is abusing the market?
Of course they are that’s one of the reasons they are getting regulated