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Posner for president ;)

This is ONE judge with an opinion. In a patent free tech world what would you say to Samsung if they produced an exact copy of the iPhone right down to a slightly modified Apple logo? Apple did not invent but ceratinly perfected the mobile OS touch UI and made it popular. And you say it's perfectly okay for other companies to simply sit back, wait for Apple to make something popular, and then rip it off totally? Really?
 
Code can very much be kept secret. You don't quite understand how optimizing compilers work if you think you can "decompile" a binary and obtain the source code from it. ;)

Even with symbols intact in the code, you'll hardly get what the programmer was actually working on from a decompiler.

Trying to "copy" by decompiling a binary and going from there for a programmer is a ludicrous endeavour. It's usually just easier to analyse the initial problem and implement a solution from scratch.

hell even if it was not optimized and just was converted straight to the assembly/binary it would be near impossible to reverse it. It is nearly unreadable and unfollowable to humans.

All one has to do is try to read a basic assembly coded program to see how hard it is to follow.
 
The neonode was a slide over touch sensitive sensors that were offscreen. Am I wrong about this? All I saw was the youtube video from about 2007 (2 years after the debut of the neonode).

You're right, the Neonode used IR sensors. However, the type of touchscreen doesn't matter, since the slide-to-unlock patent was smartly written to apply to any type of touchscreen:

"A method of controlling an electronic device with a touch-sensitive display..."

Shouldn't Apple be able to protect this look and feel? I think so. Apple thinks so. This is what software patents protect, no? Have you read the below link?

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2011/08/09/are-software-patents-evil/

Roughly Drafted is always a mess; it's written for hits, not intelligence.

In this case, it's better to read some of the comments that follow the article, from developers who point out why many software patents are a problem.
 
It's a tough issue, because there's arguments for both sides, but I think the decision has to be where it will benefit consumers and not hurt them. Since we're the ones buying these products.

The patent system is just a mess and needs some revamping. I'm on the fence. I can see positives and negatives on both maintaining and eliminating the need for software patents. As a developer it sucks that others just steal your inventions, but as a consumer it also sucks that these patents pose limitations for us.

As a developer if someone else makes their own code to perform the same tasks they are not stealing your innovations. Thats the problem with software patents. They patent an idea and not the execution of it. They are far too broad and limit the industry far too much.
 
Bzzt! Wrong! Remember Apple suing Microsoft over the look and feel of Macintosh and losing?

And have you ever read about why they lost? Apple wasn't the huge innovator that got blindsided by the cocky stealing upstart MS. There was issues with licensing, the fact some of the things they wanted to patent were unpatentable, and the very huge and most important fact that they tried patenting some things that didn't originate at Apple.

You have to think of Apple as they are, another player in a very large game, and not as you want them to be, the mavericks of the industry and sole creators of everything we know and love in technology.

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We have some pretty blatant trademark infringement right here in Quebec like that one. The thing is, will Disney really sue a restaurant called "Goofy", using Goofy as their mascot, when it's in a village with less than 2000 inhabitants (yes, really life example, they make awesome poutine too) ?

Same for your pizza example, that doesn't seem to be a mass-market game. Nintendo would probably still win a trademark infringement lawsuit if they became aware of the infringement.

Yeah, they would. I wish I could've found a better example to use, but I'm short on time at the mo.

I guess the best comparison would be all the Disney ripoffs you see after they release a movie. Like Aladdin. You had their version, and the direct to VHS version that was really damn similar, but not quite enough to land the ripoff studio in court.
 
Daniel Eran Dilger? Really?

Daniel Eran Dilger is not worth a bit

Ad hominem. So much fun, you did it twice! :D

You're totally confusing patents and copyrights.

Patents give you the right to prevent others from using your invention.

Copyrights give you the sole rights to reproduce and distribute your creation.

I don't think you hit the actual distinction here. The primary distinction is the nature of the work being protected.

I despise Apple!

When developing the iPhone, Apple deliberately chose to ignore a bunch of standards essential patents held by Nokia. And they blatantly refused to pay royalties for licensing these patents under Frand (fair reasonable and non-discriminatory) terms - instead choosing to fight Nokia in the courts - until they of course lost spectacularly.

I don't think you understand what actually happened. Apple and Nokia tried to negotiate a royalty for the FRAND patents. They could not come to an agreement. Nokia sued Apple. They settled. There was no ignoring of patents or blatant refusal to pay or spectacular loss.

Apple neither came up with slide-to-unlock or pinch-to-zoom, so no, Apple should be able to protect those ideas and take them for themselves. They should be able to protect their implementation of the technology and the images they use to represent the various required graphical widgets through copyright and trademarks, but not the actual idea.

It really is silly to continue to discuss the validity of patents based on their title or summary instead of the actual patent claims. Most things seem simple and obvious when you go by the summary or title that attempts to make it easy to understand. Not speaking to you exclusively! :)

Apple didn't patent the general ability to "slide to unlock" or "pinch to zoom".
 
This is ONE judge with an opinion.

He's also one of the most highly respected and cited jurists in America.

In a patent free tech world what would you say to Samsung if they produced an exact copy of the iPhone right down to a slightly modified Apple logo? Apple did not invent but ceratinly perfected the mobile OS touch UI and made it popular. And you say it's perfectly okay for other companies to simply sit back, wait for Apple to make something popular, and then rip it off totally? Really?

Everyone is only talking about software patents.

The design can still get a patent (although it'd be nice if minimalist shapes were excluded), the chips can be patented, the look of critical pieces can still be trademarked and copyrighted, the code still is copyrighted, the overall look and feel can get copyright or trade dress protection.
 
Software patents, and the patent process as a whole

Hi Everyone,

As a former patent examiner at the US patent and trademark office (USPTO) and as a current patent agent by profession (who actually writes software patent applications for a living), I am always extremely interested in these types of stories and debates regarding software patents. I think there are MANY issues that we all need to consider here.

1.) What a patent actually IS.
2.) The patent process as a whole, and the current problems of the process.
3.) What software patents actually intend to protect.
4.) Why there are so many patents on seemingly obvious things, and the problems that they cause.

1.) OK. So to start, a patent allows an inventor, or inventors, a specific amount of time (20 years from the filing date of the patent application) in which they may prevent others from making and/or using their invention. Inventors can often assign their patent to another party. Often, this is done when an employee of a large company assigns their patents to their employer (because of an agreement since the invention occurred while working on a company project and the employer pays for the costs associated with receiving a patent). The patent holder or assignee may allow other parties to make and/or use the invention by charging royalties, licencing fees, etc.

2.) The patent process is extremely complex and takes literally years to complete from the time someone comes up with an invention to the time where a patent is actually issued. In short, to receive a patent, one must write a patent application, submit the application to the USPTO, and prosecute the application (respond to any rejections from the patent office, amend the application so that it is narrower, etc.). This USPTO has a major back-log of patents, but they are putting a pretty big dent in that backlog with aggressive hiring and increased production standards from their examiners. As of right now, it might take up to 36 months just to get a first response from the USPTO after someone files an application. To actually obtain a patent could take about 5 years and 10-20k in patent lawyer fees and USPTO fees. So the costs and time of obtaining a patent are very problematic for the little guy, but it's a necessary evil since patent law is so complex. Nonetheless, the UPSTO is trying to cut down on the time by reducing their backlog and encouraging expeditious resolution of patent applications.

3.) Software patents are intended to protect any software idea, whether broad or specific, that is considered non-obvious and new. Patent examiners at the USPTO perform an extensive search of related inventions or ideas that pertain to the claims of the patent application and will typically reject most patent applications on first review since applicants try to get the broadest patent as possible. Also, applicants (or their lawyers) will present tons of arguments as to why their invention deserves a patent. So in the case of the "slide to unlock", the USPTO determined that it was not obvious and it was new based on the merits of the claimed invention and any arguments made during prosecution.

4.) This leads me to why it seems as if there are so many patents for obvious inventions. Patent examiners are just people like you and me and often allow an application after arguing with the same lawyer for months or years about the same thing. Eventually, they give up and just allow the application, although they often stick to their guns and force the applicant to appeal their decision if they keep rejecting it. Usually an examiner only allows applications after the claims of the application have been amended to the point where they cover something so specific that it doesn't overlap with something already out there. That's how it should be done so that the claimed invention is clearly distinguishable over what is already out there...but I have known examiners that are just bad...they allow stuff without even searching what is already out there, and that causes the crap we see here. But of course it isn't all the examiners fault for allowing bad apps...companies pay big money to pursue patents and wear down examiners on things like the shape of a rectangle (which apple has used to get injunctions on samsung) because if they get that injunction which holds up for a month, that's a good chunk of change of people buying ipads instead of g-tabs. The examiners don't mind because every time they respond to arguments made by an applicant, they get money and they get money when they eventually allow the application.

Once a patent is actually issued, the courts HAVE to respect it, even if it seems like a silly patent which is way too broad and obvious...so in short, big companies pay big money to pursue broad patents and the USPTO kind of looks the other way/gives up on arguing rejections since they have a huuuge backlog, and one of the ways to get rid of applications is to allow them. Also, they are collecting TONS of fees for these software patent applications (in fact the USPTO is a cash cow and is the only government agency that actually makes money, and a LOT of it).

There are many software patents out there that protect good ideas so that real innovators can reap the benefits of their labor and ideas, but the system isn't perfect and you're going to have some problems when silly things are patented just to get an injunction on selling products to stifle competition.
 
I want to patent "Hello World!"

...can I have it, please? Description:

A program that puts out on a) a prompt or b) a message box or c) any other output device the words "Hello" and "World" or any combination of them including but not limited to an exclamation mark.


Boy, if I get this, I can sue every school and university offering programming classes, not to mention printers printing programing language manuals etc.

I think they should change software patents to copyright protection of code. Otherwise, you won't have much innovation anymore because smaller companies will have no chance writing any software without cashing out to all kinds of patentholders first.
 
Once a patent is actually issued, the courts HAVE to respect it, even if it seems like a silly patent which is way too broad and obvious...

Thanks for the post. And yeah what aroused my attention was this ^ fact. Of course there seem like loads of questionable patents, but they still have legal weight.

Changes need to be made at a systemic level, not merely a Judicial one.
 
...

I think they should change software patents to copyright protection of code. Otherwise, you won't have much innovation anymore because smaller companies will have no chance writing any software without cashing out to all kinds of

patentholders first.

Thing is that if you have a general concept that you have implemented, copy-writing only your specific code isn't enough...people could take your idea and make their own code. So for a truly novel concept, you need patents. The other thing is that while the front of a patent might seem obvious (virtual keyboard, etc), there might be something underneath that describes HOW it is done which is considered novel.
 
He did address the case in his court though in how it relates to current law, last week. He's now just giving his opinion on patents in general, as he's allowed to do as a citizen of the United States.

I never criticized is right to give an opinion. So you can calm down. I misunderstood the statement as being delivered during the suit.
 
You could not be more wrong. Recipes are protected. That's why Burger King and jack in the box had to wait 20 years to come out with a sandwich similar to the Big Mac. The same goes for the egg mcmuffin. Cookie companies have recipes and procedures that make their cookies taste different. They are protected for 20 years before copy cats come. These companies search the patent listings to get a head start on any leaked information to use their own tech against them. I still think it is sad that the real AT&T no longer exists because they were run out of business with their own product. One that no one would have otherwise. The creates so many advances over the years and know that will be silent. The current AT&T is really MCI they just own the name.

Actually recipes CAN be patented, but it's extremely difficult to do so and it doesn't really do any good to patent a recipe. If my recipe calls for 1/4 tsp of salt, i can put 1/4.00000000001 and get away with it. Also, a patent is a very SPECIFIC disclosure of how to make and use your invention...if you patent your recipe, grandma can make it at home and nobody is gonna bust her.

Thats why coke will never patent their product. It is much more valuable as a trade secret. And the comparison between coke and software patents is ridiculous. Two completely separate industries.
 
Patents are only designed to avoid having innovation stolen or ripped off as R&D costs money and there should be fair time to release that product to market before others can copy them.

It's not really fair for a patent to cover only a single feature of a phone that covers thousands of features.

I can understand why companies like apple want idea protection but it should be limited to the whole product as an idea.

A drug is an idea and has few constituent parts.

What I think apple actually need is protection against look and feel etc not patents.

Patents are to inspire and lubricate the wheels of product development, in mobile software there are no innovations left only different ways of doing the same thing.

The slide to unlock this is stupid, of course the only real solution to a touch screen lock is a hardkey or gesture.

So just get on with it make better products with better software and media integration and let the customer decide.
 
YES! Down with Software Patents!

Yes! I've been saying this for decades, as have many other people. Software should not be patented. Same goes for life but for different reasons. Frankly, most of the patents being granted should not be granted and most of the existing patents should be invalidated. Additionally patent trolls should be killed. Only actual user creators of patents for a very limited number of things for a very limited time should be allowed to sue and only if they're actively doing something with the patent in the industry and reacting quickly to other use. Patents should be limited to very short periods. User it or lose it.
 
Software patents?

I can't defend all software patents, but they should be available. Sorry. How much innovation comes from freeware? The great majority of it is either imitative or deeply nerdy, unreachable for the average user.

And it's one thing for a penniless programmer to use open source, but note, they're penniless programmers.

People do deserve to be compensated for their creations.

And the very idea that a massive corporation like Google is a champion of "open source" is a lie. They are in favor of open sourcing your software. The core google moneymakers are zipped up as tight as a maiden aunt.

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...can I have it, please? Description:

A program that puts out on a) a prompt or b) a message box or c) any other output device the words "Hello" and "World" or any combination of them including but not limited to an exclamation mark.


Boy, if I get this, I can sue every school and university offering programming classes, not to mention printers printing programing language manuals etc.

I think they should change software patents to copyright protection of code. Otherwise, you won't have much innovation anymore because smaller companies will have no chance writing any software without cashing out to all kinds of patentholders first.

You won't get that patent in a million years. You underestimate the difficulty of getting a patent.
 
Actually, a gene connected to breast cancer was patented with a broad scope (BRCA1 and 2).

No, the method of testing for these genes was patented. Just patenting a gene should obviously be meaningless. I have the gene, you have the gene, we just have different alleles that sometimes need testing for. So, the specific method of testing for those alleles should be patentable. However, the general idea of testing for a specific genetic allele should not be patentable.

That's the same as here, were "slide to unlock" shouldn't be patentable, but the actual code you wrote to make that function work should be protected.

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Big Pharma is a bad example. They frequently patent medicines that were developed using tax dollars. If they accept tax dollars for the research I think they should not be able to patent that medication.

At the risk of going off topic, we can even build from that point that Big Pharma benefits from decades of not-for-profit academic work funded from tax dollars. What would big pharma be today without, for example, the human genome project? The same principle applies to the computing industry. So, we should be careful to call some marginal improvement in a product or an idea patentable. We all stand of the shoulders of giants...
 
No, the method of testing for these genes was patented. Just patenting a gene should obviously be meaningless. I have the gene, you have the gene, we just have different alleles that sometimes need testing for. So, the specific method of testing for those alleles should be patentable. However, the general idea of testing for a specific genetic allele should not be patentable.

That's the same as here, were "slide to unlock" shouldn't be patentable, but the actual code you wrote to make that function work should be protected.

Yes, I was being loose with what exactly was patented and assumed that we would all understand what exactly was patented (i.e. they don't own the gene and can extract payments from everyone who has the gene as that would be absurd).

I was not referencing the slide to unlock patent with the BRCA one. I was merely addressing the statement with respect to cancer and how yes, we can have patents with broad scope in any field.
 
You won't get that patent in a million years. You underestimate the difficulty of getting a patent.

For you who do noes get my post: That was Sarcasm:

sar·casm (särkzm)
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit.

How much innovation comes from freeware?

Hmmm. Let me think: I like tabbed browsing - first in Firefox, I believe. I like Unix-Based systems, driven mainly by Linux - which is free, and I think there are a lot of hobby programers out there who would violently contradict you and tell you they indeed innovate.
 
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Lets go with your idea. Now you spent $500,000 of your own money constructing, designing, engineering to actually build that car that hovers 2 feet above the ground. Now someone else wants to be in the flying car business and takes all of your designs, hardwork and just tosses out some weight or makes a slight modification so it now can hover 2.3'. He spent nothing on R&D and now can trump your idea and rode off your $500,000 coat tails. You are now broke since no one will buy your flying car that looks the same and hovers only 2'. That's acceptable?

This is complete nonsense. The other company needs to spend that money to research how to build that hypothetical car. They do it their way and just happen to build the same thing (they don't construct it in the same way though).

Under the patent system, the idea could be advanced by that second party if party #1 licenses the product to that other party. Or if the original owner wants to sit on it, a new company can come up with another concept/design that is uniquely different or go about it in a different way to be patented.
Again, if the ideas are basic and vague, this doesn't work.

The other side is looking at many of these patent cases with hindsight 20/20 vision. In todays landscape these things seem highly obvious. However, if you look back at when some of these patent applications were granted the ability to fathom the concepts for allot of these things were unheard of.
Bullocks. A search that aggregates results from different sources? Swipe the screen to unlock? How unheard of.

Look at some of Apple recent ideas that have been recently or applied for. I don't see the same calling for end of the patent process when those ideas are posted. Why? No one thought of them before and we deem the concept cool and novel.
Not every Apple patent is obvious alas many of them are.

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Well, I would start by saying that I think you would be pissed if someone did that to you. Again, that's just my assumption. But, if you came up with that awesome idea, and actually made it work to boot. While some other company comes up after you and does the same thing, but improves on it. You should have every right to sue (if you so choose too).
No.
You don't get what I'm saying. You shouldn't be allowed to patent ideas, especially vague concepts, but executions of ideas.

Its not stopping innovation, its stopping theft. Innovation comes from doing things differently. Finding another way, developing something new.
The problem is, the patents are so vague that you can't do some things differently. The swipe to unlock patent? Covers every gesture you make on the phone's screen. So it doesn't matter what genius idea you come up with, if it involves moving a finger on the screen Apple will hit you with their patent hammer.
 
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