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Apple Offering 7-Day Refund Policy on App Store Apps in Taiwan
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Seriously, I'll turn on my psychic abilities next time I'm looking for a CAD app or a music app with a simple Midi Piano Roll in it for composition. ...you know, so I can tell when the CAD app behaves unpredictably and/or crashes every other time you try to save, or when they say "piano roll" that they actually mean a piano roll, and not a useless notation compiler for pre-existing midi tracks. Money wasted: Couple/Few hundred bucks X every other person that went through the same thing. Financially rewarding devs for doing a poor or incomplete job doesn't benefit anyone. The only developer that would argue against some short-term refund period is one that knows they're making garbage apps.
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This won't happen anywhere else unless it is required by law. And Why should it? Why should app users be afforded a system of refund above and beyond that which applies to all other areas of retail whether it be online or not?
Apple already provides a refund mechanism for legitimate cases. Simple as that.
The decision to offer a free or trial version should be at the discretion of the individual developer. Given the shear diversity of App functionality is impossible to devise a single system that is fair to all developers.
This won't happen anywhere else unless it is required by law. And Why should it? Why should app users be afforded a system of refund above and beyond that which applies to all other areas of retail whether it be online or not?
Apple already provides a refund mechanism for legitimate cases. Simple as that.
The decision to offer a free or trial version should be at the discretion of the individual developer. Given the shear diversity of App functionality is impossible to devise a single system that is fair to all developers.
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@ thunderskunk
Sounds like you have a legitimate case for a refund? Out of interest how did you go when you contacted Apple to request a refund?
@ thunderskunk
Sounds like you have a legitimate case for a refund? Out of interest how did you go when you contacted Apple to request a refund?
In the EU, everyone has the automatic right to return products (as long as they are in original condition) within 7 days (from the day AFTER you receive them) if bought online/mail order/over the phone.
Digitally Distributed products are exempt, and for things like software you'd have to return it unopened.
IMO Apple should allow some sort of return window, but I don't think I'd make it 7 days.
Android's 15 minutes is better than nothing.
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Sure I see where you are coming from. But the difference is those physical goods must be returned in an unused conditioned meaning that the consumer has not received any real value from them. Whereas the value of an app can be enjoyed in a short period of time.
I'm yet to read here a blanket proposal for a system that would be fair to all developers.
Daveoc64 said:
Sure I see where you are coming from. But the difference is those physical goods must be returned in an unused conditioned meaning that the consumer has not received any real value from them. Whereas the value of an app can be enjoyed in a short period of time.
I'm yet to read here a blanket proposal for a system that would be fair to all developers.
Have you ever bought anything at Walmart or Target? Or Nordstrom or Amazon or Zappos? All of these retailers - and thousands others - offer a system of refunds way above what is necessary. They do this because it's good for business.
Apple should offer this too, although maybe not 7 days for a 99c game.
This!
I've bought my fair share of crappy apps, but I've also bought my fair share of excellent apps. Apps DO have a return policy, you just have to contact Apple and thats the way it should be IMO to protect developers.
Too many people on here have no clue what it takes to make an app and it shows. Many of us spend months making something and for someone to get to use it for free and then return it isn't fair for the developers. There is a reason opened software, open DVD's, and open CD's in stores can only be exchanged for the same title, not for different titles and thats because people would get their use out of it and return it, leaving the developers and their hard work with nothing.
I've also seen the argument in the thread: "Well then all developers should offer a free version!". Easier said than done. It requires a whole separate build of the game, separate testing, separate programming for allowing someone to upgrade to the paid version, etc.
Let me put it this way, say you have a cupcake store and anyone can come in and take a bite, or two, or more, or even eat the whole cupcake and then ask for a refund. Is that fair to you?
Maybe if the trial time was based on price. Under $9.99 would have a 1 hour trial, over that could be 24 hours.
The issue with a 24 hour "trial" is that 95% of $1-$5 iPhone games can be beat in less than an hour or two. Heck, even $60 xbox 360 games only have 6-8 hour campaigns that can be beat in a day. But you can't return an opened game that you bought from the store.
Most users wouldn't abuse the system, but I could see a lot of teenagers with nothing else to do in the summer "trialing" all the games they want because they can get refunds.
Apple could limit the amount of refunds that an account could get, that would keep people from abusing it once they find they can't "return" all of their apps.
Also it would need to be implemented as a delayed charge so that if you do "return" an app it wouldn't waste credit card processing fees along with losing money for the developer.
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Sure but who covers that cost? You're talking about massive companies that absorb the cost. In the current system in the app store the developer is the one who looses out which is fine on an ad hoc basis where the existing refund channel is being used legitimately, but not a good system for a blanket approach.
alhedges said:
Sure but who covers that cost? You're talking about massive companies that absorb the cost. In the current system in the app store the developer is the one who looses out which is fine on an ad hoc basis where the existing refund channel is being used legitimately, but not a good system for a blanket approach.
What if you had a grocery store and someone could buy groceries, and then return them complaining that the bread was stale or moldy?
Oh yeah, they already let you do that. Because that's a reasonable complaint and a reasonable request for a refund.
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No it's not fair if a any amount of value has been extracted from the App prior to it being deleted. This is the problem, apps are so diverse in their offerings/functionality that a blanket time limit can't work fairly.
haruhiko said:
No it's not fair if a any amount of value has been extracted from the App prior to it being deleted. This is the problem, apps are so diverse in their offerings/functionality that a blanket time limit can't work fairly.
Like others; I have spent money on numerous apps that were complete rubbish. It is in Apple's best interest to protect consumers in a way that isn't harsh to developers, yet protects us from apps that:
1. Somehow slipped through the approval system.
2. Have many bogus / questionable reviews.
3. Crash prone / unsupported even though your device is listed.
4. Does not live up to claims ( profoundly so ).
I think 1 hour would be more than sufficient time to give any app a test run. All apps should be considered trials for the first 1 hour. You should be able to buy it before or when the 1-hour trial period expires. This would be fair to both consumers and developers. Developers that don't support this, may have ulterior motives.
A good example: there is an app that I paid $5 for that just did not work right called everyAir, and I just recently noticed that it completely disappeared from App Store, it does not even show in my purchases anymore. It appears to have been pulled, but where is my refund? When an app is defunct and pulled, an automated refund should be issued.
1. Somehow slipped through the approval system.
2. Have many bogus / questionable reviews.
3. Crash prone / unsupported even though your device is listed.
4. Does not live up to claims ( profoundly so ).
I think 1 hour would be more than sufficient time to give any app a test run. All apps should be considered trials for the first 1 hour. You should be able to buy it before or when the 1-hour trial period expires. This would be fair to both consumers and developers. Developers that don't support this, may have ulterior motives.
A good example: there is an app that I paid $5 for that just did not work right called everyAir, and I just recently noticed that it completely disappeared from App Store, it does not even show in my purchases anymore. It appears to have been pulled, but where is my refund? When an app is defunct and pulled, an automated refund should be issued.
Your analogy doesn't hold very well. If you started eating the groceries I assure you they would not be returnable.
Technically, that 'fair' system you're looking for would simply be that if an app has not been used, it's refundable. Anything more (don't like, operational reasons), and you'll have to contact Apple specifically.
Verification of use would simply be a flag set on the users iTunes account when launched for the first time. (Internet connectivity required to activate...!')
Of course; all this is rather irrelevant seeing as the actual download (and install) of a digital file is activating it in a way; which I guess is why there are return policies for physical goods / media if unopened / unused, but not normally downloads.
Different analogy then. You're at a restaurant, you order a meal. You start eating it, and part way through you find a cockroach embedded in the meal. Chances are they'll give you a new plate and still give you the meal for free.
I've often wondered how app stores get around the EU distance selling laws, which state that consumers have a 7 day cooling off period for any online purchase.
Alright, only have time for a quick post. Can't reply to my other posts yet. But I had to get my voice in on this.
There ABSOLUTELY needs to be a refund system. There is far too much junk in the app store. And, realistically, with practically anything else, if I don't like what I bought for any reason I can return it to the store. Why can't I do that on the app store? Theres plenty of 5 star rated apps on the app store that end up being junk in the end. So why can't one get a refund for that? I remember buying an app last year for $6 then a week later it went permanently free. If I had bought a physical product from any number of stores, I would have been able to take my receipt into any one of those stores and gotten a full refund. But I couldn't get a refund on the app store. Thats not fair to the consumer. It's not fair that if they buy something that is reviewed good but ends up being junk that they're out of luck. So yes, there should be a return period on apps. And it should be at least 48 hours.
To the people who say its not fair to the developers, I say so what? If you make junk you don't deserve to have your junk protected and your ability to rip consumers off preserved. Apple just needs to hold payment and not take their cut until the return window is up. Simple. Or they should give up their cut with the app refund because they're partially responsible for letting junk into the app store to begin with.
To those who say it'll drive away app developers, I say PERFECT. I'd say a good 3/4 of the junk on the app store needs to be removed anyway. Let the jerks who thrive off selling 99c junk leave and only the developers who make something WORTH buying will survive.
If there was a return window then people would be more confident spending money on more expensive apps. If people knew they could get their money back on a $20 app if they felt it wasn't worth the money, they'd be more willing to give it a shot. Then we could see REAL games and other higher quality apps on the app store because then people wouldn't be afraid to try it. They wouldn't have all of these memories of buying $1, $2, $5 apps that ended up being crap and they couldn't get their money back. They'd be like "okay, I'll buy it. If its good I'll keep it and if not then I can get my money back." It's exactly what the app store needs. And, again, to all the people saying its not fair to developers, it's not fair to consumers that the rights of bad app developers are put above the paying customer. Without people buying apps to begin with then none of this would exist. If you're afraid people won't buy your app then MAKE IT worth buying.
No, but you can RENT a $60 Xbox 360 game from Redbox for $2 or you can rent it from Blockbuster, local video stores, or Gamefly. Even better, you can SELL that Xbox 360 game after you're done with it. You can even buy USED Xbox 360 games and save a significant amount of money then sell it off when you're finished and recover most of what you spent. You can't sell an iPhone app. You can't rent it. You can't return it. You can't buy it used!
Store policies prevent opened game returns. Nothing else. However, if you feel a game is bad and want a refund, more often than not you can complain to the game publisher/developer and they'll offer to have you send them the copy and they'll send you back a sealed copy that you can return. Or if its passed the return window they'll offer a free game. Thats what I did with Crysis 2. Single player campaign was far too short to justify $60, multi-player was already dead after just a few days of availability, and filled with cheaters in what few games did exist since no real anti-cheat system was used, and the graphics were nowhere near as good as the hype. So I told EA I wanted a refund but the return window was closing at the store I bought it from. So they let me keep the game and gave me a free game of my choosing.
Thats not true at all. Thats how you find out the groceries are bad and return them.
There ABSOLUTELY needs to be a refund system. There is far too much junk in the app store. And, realistically, with practically anything else, if I don't like what I bought for any reason I can return it to the store. Why can't I do that on the app store? Theres plenty of 5 star rated apps on the app store that end up being junk in the end. So why can't one get a refund for that? I remember buying an app last year for $6 then a week later it went permanently free. If I had bought a physical product from any number of stores, I would have been able to take my receipt into any one of those stores and gotten a full refund. But I couldn't get a refund on the app store. Thats not fair to the consumer. It's not fair that if they buy something that is reviewed good but ends up being junk that they're out of luck. So yes, there should be a return period on apps. And it should be at least 48 hours.
To the people who say its not fair to the developers, I say so what? If you make junk you don't deserve to have your junk protected and your ability to rip consumers off preserved. Apple just needs to hold payment and not take their cut until the return window is up. Simple. Or they should give up their cut with the app refund because they're partially responsible for letting junk into the app store to begin with.
To those who say it'll drive away app developers, I say PERFECT. I'd say a good 3/4 of the junk on the app store needs to be removed anyway. Let the jerks who thrive off selling 99c junk leave and only the developers who make something WORTH buying will survive.
If there was a return window then people would be more confident spending money on more expensive apps. If people knew they could get their money back on a $20 app if they felt it wasn't worth the money, they'd be more willing to give it a shot. Then we could see REAL games and other higher quality apps on the app store because then people wouldn't be afraid to try it. They wouldn't have all of these memories of buying $1, $2, $5 apps that ended up being crap and they couldn't get their money back. They'd be like "okay, I'll buy it. If its good I'll keep it and if not then I can get my money back." It's exactly what the app store needs. And, again, to all the people saying its not fair to developers, it's not fair to consumers that the rights of bad app developers are put above the paying customer. Without people buying apps to begin with then none of this would exist. If you're afraid people won't buy your app then MAKE IT worth buying.
No, but you can RENT a $60 Xbox 360 game from Redbox for $2 or you can rent it from Blockbuster, local video stores, or Gamefly. Even better, you can SELL that Xbox 360 game after you're done with it. You can even buy USED Xbox 360 games and save a significant amount of money then sell it off when you're finished and recover most of what you spent. You can't sell an iPhone app. You can't rent it. You can't return it. You can't buy it used!
Store policies prevent opened game returns. Nothing else. However, if you feel a game is bad and want a refund, more often than not you can complain to the game publisher/developer and they'll offer to have you send them the copy and they'll send you back a sealed copy that you can return. Or if its passed the return window they'll offer a free game. Thats what I did with Crysis 2. Single player campaign was far too short to justify $60, multi-player was already dead after just a few days of availability, and filled with cheaters in what few games did exist since no real anti-cheat system was used, and the graphics were nowhere near as good as the hype. So I told EA I wanted a refund but the return window was closing at the store I bought it from. So they let me keep the game and gave me a free game of my choosing.
Thats not true at all. Thats how you find out the groceries are bad and return them.
Software is specifically excluded in the regulations unless it is in a sealed package. There are lots of exceptions, like auctions, so no distance regs on eBay!
I like what other people have said, you have, say, 7 days or 2 hours once it is opened- whichever comes sooner.
Of course. But it would be strange if I came back to the pub and said "Hey, remember that beer I bought here last week..? I really didn't like it after all, I'd like my two bucks back." Likewise, I wouldn't expect to be able to try out a new kind of beer (say, a Belgian triple), and be entitled to a refund if I didn't like it. I may decide not to drink the rest of it, and just remember not to order this type again and stick to Budweiser next time.
I was going to suggest this. Good idea. That way, you could give an expensive app a thorough test before you decide to keep it, and developers of 99c "waste-a-few-minutes-at-the-bus-stop" games won't be cheated out of their revenue. There are several apps I bought and used only once, but the super-low prices on most apps make that OK (for me). "Find a restaurant near me" - used only once when I was in a city I'd never been before. But I always figure that the price is less of half a beer, so it won't even occur to me to ask for a refund. If I can afford an iPhone, I can afford the measly 99c.
On the other hand, a variable grace period is not something Apple would do - it's much too complicated to explain.
It's even stranger. Occasionally I participate in a "free for a day" event with my 99c game, and the major drawback is that of the 30K downloads that day, there will be many people who are simply not attracted to the genre in the first place, and they will leave 1-star reviews. Lots of them. It takes a long time after such an event to get the rating back up by getting reviews from people who bought the game because they were attracted to it, not just because it was free.
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