Apple Officially Addresses Location Data Controversy

[thebeans]

This is very true..

A lot of people are upset over this. But, no one seems to care that the US Government can snoop on any electronic communication it wants for well over 10 years now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_(signals_intelligence)

Data transmissions, cell phone calls, you name it. I think we're trying to cook the wrong goose if you ask me.

When I was in college we got a new professor. He had retired from the Navy. Intelligence division actually. His job during his last years in NI was to monitor email communications. Yea, he read your email. Not literally every one of course and there were (are) many, many working on this but in a nutshell, yes the government does read your email. Do I care? Nope. Got nothing to hide and if they want to read emails of me asking my wife what she wants for supper or telling her how my day went, what do I care?

 

[samcraig]

No they won't stand out in the data, because each cell tower or Wi-Fi hotspot is only included once in the database. And there is no information regarding how much time you spend in each location.

If locations are recorded AND time/date stamp - then how much time you spend in each location is tracked inherently. If you "log in" at one time here and then another 20 minutes later - there's a history of time spent. Maybe not foolproof... but to say that no information is there isn't accurate.

 

[inhrntlyunstabl]

And once again people give Apple a pass for something that is clearly an issue.

You mean to tell me that Apple...this sounds like something Google would do, not Apple.

revelated, beware! Apple is closing in on you with their black helicopters and vans to take you prisoner for mind control experiments.

OR

If they did this on purpose, maybe they wanted to know why so many people complain about AT&T in certain parts of SF. Or maybe they wanted to know how many users access Internet via all the Starbucks in the world? Maybe they wanted to direct ads at you based upon your location.
All of the above are already being done to you via many other avenues, e.g. your frequent buyer cards, ATMs, CCs, etc.

BUT

If you want to believe there is some BIGGER MYSTERIOUS PURPOSE in mind for them to do this, you go right on.

LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU - WAS THAT A BLACK UNMARKED VAN!!!!

 

[chrono1081]

Hopefully this announcement makes the tin foil hat brigade go away...of course after only reading a few comments I see people crying that "Apple is lying!". Stupid people.

 

[wonderspark]

Depends.

Someone could infer that info, if the cell cache says that around 2am you visited the town Harry's is in, and it's the only store open at that time.

Ever been to NTTC Corry?
Oops, you deleted your PS.

 

[samcraig]

revelated, beware! Apple is closing in on you with their black helicopters and vans to take you prisoner for mind control experiments.

OR

If they did this on purpose, maybe they wanted to know why so many people complain about AT&T in certain parts of SF. Or maybe they wanted to know how many users access Internet via all the Starbucks in the world? Maybe they wanted to direct ads at you based upon your location.
All of the above are already being done to you via many other avenues, e.g. your frequent buyer cards, ATMs, CCs, etc.

BUT

If you want to believe there is some BIGGER MYSTERIOUS PURPOSE in mind for them to do this, you go right own. LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU - WAS THAT A BLACK UNMARKED VAN!!!!

And maybe purging or limiting this DB won't slow location service based apps/etc either.

It goes both ways.

In fact - if purging this data WAS going to cause a performance issue - do you really think Apple would do it? They aren't exactly the type to sacrifice quality, are they?

 

[NebulaClash]

Really? The posters on here that say there was no issue are correct?

I guess Apple fixing certain bugs related to this is whimtime.

I guess it's all a matter of what part of the issue you deem important. The tracking, the retention or the ability to opt out

Yes, the Apple fans were more correct than the anti-Apple folks. What we heard over the last week is that your personal data was being sent to Apple (it wasn't), that Apple is evil (it isn't), that Steve Jobs is lying (he isn't).

Strip away the hyperbole and you have a bug that is going to be fixed, data that is anonymized and not trackable to you unless you physically possess someone's Mac, and a story that made news last year and should never have gotten so big this time around. So yes, the Apple fans were more correct while the hype machine was wrong (as usual).

 

[kcmac]

I think that a lot of people forget that the first iPhone did not have GPS. It helped you find where you were by locating Wi-Fi hotspots and triangulating cell towers. Sometimes it would get you pretty close to where you were but sometimes the results could be fairly maddening. We always referred to this as fake GPS back then.

Now with the combination of real GPS and these other two methods, it is a very accurate system. And fast. I believe Apples description and only hope that the software update does not reduce speed or accuracy of what I have now come to expect.

 

[samcraig]

Yes, the Apple fans were more correct than the anti-Apple folks. What we heard over the last week is that your personal data was being sent to Apple (it wasn't), that Apple is evil (it isn't), that Steve Jobs is lying (he isn't).

Strip away the hyperbole and you have a bug that is going to be fixed, data that is anonymized and not trackable to you unless you physically possess someone's Mac, and a story that made news last year and should never have gotten so big this time around. So yes, the Apple fans were more correct while the hype machine was wrong (as usual).

Maybe that's what you heard.

I heard that the database couldn't be user purged (easily)
The the database kept data from Day one
and that Location services being turned off didn't change the recording of the data.

Apple fans were "more correct". Wow. Ok - if you say so.... and if it helps you sleep at night

 

[Tundraboy]

Hilarious!!!!! We're not tracking you but we're going to provide a patch soon.......typical Apple response......just DENY!!!!!

There is no antenna issue with the iPhone 4 but we'll give you a free bumper for a limited time, act quickly while supplies last LMAO!!!!!

 

[jbellanca]

If locations are recorded AND time/date stamp - then how much time you spend in each location is tracked inherently. If you "log in" at one time here and then another 20 minutes later - there's a history of time spent. Maybe not foolproof... but to say that no information is there isn't accurate.

Not true if what people are saying is true about every location only has one entry in the DB. The second time you hit the same tower, the old date/time stamp gets updated to the new one, effectively erasing the old one. This practice would leave gaps in the d/t stamp, invalidating whatever data you're trying to deduce about time spent at a location. (i.e., If I go from location A > B > C > D, then the next day revisit B & C, but don't get close to A & D, B & C will update with the new d/t stamp, and using your logic, it would look like I was never at B & C the first time, and just at location A a very long time.)

 

[dbwie]

If the wifi/cell tower data is being sent anonymously and encrypted to Apple, then they are not tracking you or your phone. If someone gets a hold of this unencypted information from your phone or from a backup on your computer, then there is a small potential of some harm being done. I'm happy that Apple is addessing this latter issue, but I can think of many more risky ways in which I risk identity theft, etc.

People are talking about privacy issues, but privacy is about people's personal experience. Sharing personal data, or any data remotely identifying of you, is more about confidentiality. The anonymous and encrypted nature of the data going to apple maintains confidentiality, since nobody at apples end can use it to identify you. We all carry around our personal identifying data (eg drivers license) every day, and it's our responsibility not to lose it. Same with what is on our phones. Apple should give us more control over how such data is handled on our phones, however, and I'm glad this is going to happen, whether or not the issue is a bug.

 

[NebulaClash]

Maybe that's what you heard.

I heard that the database couldn't be user purged (easily)
The the database kept data from Day one
and that Location services being turned off didn't change the recording of the data.

Apple fans were "more correct". Wow. Ok - if you say so.... and if it helps you sleep at night

I'm talking about the hyperbole, not the sensible discussion that was going on too. You are capable of such discussions, and so am I. We do not represent the majority of the comments in these threads which contained lots of hair-on-fire paranoia. The Apple fans trying to talk such folks down off the roof were right.

 

[kdarling]

Ever been to NTTC Corry?
Oops, you deleted your PS.

No sir, trained at DLI Monterey and Goodfellow AFB. Damn, how come the Navy always has the bases at the nicest spots?

 

[PhantomPumpkin]

correct. wasn't sure how long it would take for people in general to get up in arms about location privacy on the idevices... what did people think was going to happen??

such it is, our electronic tethers are really leashes.

Really? So you're telling me that the location saved, of the cell tower 100 miles away, is actually really MY location?

Wow!

 

[JAT]

There aren't any concerns, but since the media hyped this up so much, they had to address it. Now they have. Should be the end of the story. But it won't be since there are anti-Apple folks who will push to keep this story alive as long as they can until the next Apple-gate story gets created.

Yes, and no doubt Chris will add something about this on Ubersoft, validating the idiots.

 

[NebulaClash]

Hilarious!!!!! We're not tracking you but we're going to provide a patch soon.......typical Apple response......just DENY!!!!!

There is no antenna issue with the iPhone 4 but we'll give you a free bumper for a limited time, act quickly while supplies last LMAO!!!!!

Laugh all you want, but they are being sensible. If the media hype gets too great, they act, as they should.

I have no antenna issue with my iPhone 4, and I don't use a case or a bumper. I understand what Apple meant by calling it a non-issue.

Apple did not track you, it sent anonymized cell tower location information back to itself. But there was a bug that kept a locally-stored database file from being culled from all but the most recent data. So they will now provide an update to fix that bug.

But if you want to pretend that Apple is in denial mode, and use exclamation points as if your hair were on fire, go right ahead. You nicely prove the point I was just making with samcraig.

 

[PhantomPumpkin]

Maybe that's what you heard.

I heard that the database couldn't be user purged (easily)
The the database kept data from Day one
and that Location services being turned off didn't change the recording of the data.

Apple fans were "more correct". Wow. Ok - if you say so.... and if it helps you sleep at night

I'm still confused how you think the "hype" was correct then.

Your points don't even support it.

As was said before, this was way overblown.

 

[PhantomPumpkin]

Laugh all you want, but they are being sensible. If the media hype gets too great, they act, as they should.

I have no antenna issue with my iPhone 4, and I don't use a case or a bumper. I understand what Apple meant by calling it a non-issue.

Apple did not track you, it sent anonymized cell tower location information back to itself. But there was a bug that kept a locally-stored database file from being culled from all but the most recent data. So they will now provide an update to fix that bug.

But if you want to pretend that Apple is in denial mode, and use exclamation points as if your hair were on fire, go right ahead. You nicely prove the point I was just making with samcraig.

Don't you just love it? Apple identifies an potential issue, and does something to remedy it, and they get yelled at for doing so. If they do nothing, they get yelled at for doing nothing.

Catch 22.

 

[wonderspark]

No sir, trained at DLI Monterey and Goodfellow AFB. Damn, how come the Navy always has the bases at the nicest spots?

I picked the Navy because it improved chances of being near a beach!

I'm glad that Apple is correcting the mistake they made. Smart move, calling it a bug. Steve is a Jedi for sure.

 

[samcraig]

Don't you just love it? Apple identifies an potential issue, and does something to remedy it, and they get yelled at for doing so. If they do nothing, they get yelled at for doing nothing.

Catch 22.

Apple identified it? No. Check your history. It was brought TO Apple's attention over a year ago.

It was again brought TO Apple's attention via various reports and articles.

THEN Apple looked into the matter.

I commend Apple for taking action (now).

But let's not rewrite history, shall we?

 

[notjustjay]

"Calculating a phone's location using just GPS satellite data can take up to several minutes."

Then how is car-navigation working?

The same thing - it can take up to a few minutes to establish a solid GPS lock. I own a Garmin GPSMAP 60csx (a hiking/geocaching GPS) which is getting a bit long in the tooth now (purchased in 2006) but at the time, the SiRFstar III chip that powers it was able to establish a location WAY faster than the previous GPS units I owned -- but even that meant a minute, maybe two. All of the Garmin and TomTom traffic GPS's I've used take a similar amount of time to acquire a signal lock.

 

[JimEJr]

Its not about being a criminal or paranoid. This data is for the sole purpose of marketers to sell us crap.

Well, I'm tired of seeing ads everywhere I turn. You can't go to the bathroom now without seeing a ad shoved in your face and its becoming tiresome.

Well, Fry could have added our iPads and our phones too. Its disgusting already how much advertising has infiltrated our lives. You can't even read a news story on the internet without an ad being being intrusively shoved in your face.

Well then shut your eyes and plug your ears...or kiss your content (aka what you DO want) good bye as those ads are what is paying for you to enjoy that news story you refer to and most anything else that is free or a lower cost than it would be without ads. You can't have it both ways. Want all bloggers, media, etc. to do everything without ads AND without a charge? You try running a biz that way...see how long you'll be able to pay your bills.

In reality, the more data advertisers have about you, the better they will be able to put forth ads that are much more relevant to you. If we're going to have ads, might as well have them be for something of genuine interest to each one of us.

 

[chrmjenkins]

I'm a little confused at the magnitude of people's reaction here.

Cell phone companies already do this. This is how they track potential crime victims locations'. They can access the cellular provider's database and get a ping with a cell tower and location. This is also timestamped. Your cellular provider already has more information than Apple ever had.

 

[notjustjay]

Really? So you're telling me that the location saved, of the cell tower 100 miles away, is actually really MY location?

Wow!

I think it's not as bad as what the media would have you believe, BUT it is worse than what Apple wants you to think.

Sure, cell towers could be up to 100 miles away. And when I ran the mapping tool and plotted my locations, and zoom in far enough, I do indeed see a grid of cell towers as opposed to actual locations where I've been standing. All anyone could know is that I've been "somewhere" in the vicinity.

(And this isn't new. Some time ago I came upon a car crash and called 911 on my cell phone to report it. They were able to get the location to send emergency services just by where I was calling from. It wasn't 100% accurate -- they asked if I was near a major intersection and I told them it was about a block from there.)

However, if it's also tracking wifi hotspots, those can pinpoint you pretty closely. Most people stay within 30-50 feet of their wireless router, and the ones you spend the most time connected to will be the ones at home, at work, and and at your friends' houses.