Apple, Parallels, VMWare and Microsoft

[BillyShears]

Apple would probably also want to buy VPC because they don't want JUST a virtualization program (for the Intel side) but also the emulation product (for the PPC side) so that Leopard could support running Windows on all the older non-Intel Macs that are out there. It would just be significantly slower than when run on the Intel machines. (Just like VPC is now...)

Ah, OK, that makes sense to support the PPC side of OS X. I had not thought of that.

I'm not sure if they want to encourage people to stick with PPC Macs instead of buying new Macs (and paying for updates to the Universal versions of all their software). I would think they'd want to improve sales, but you might be right, too.

 

[boncellis]

Apple Could Make a Run at Both Parallels and VMWare

I have a feeling Apple has something significant in store for Leopard. If I recall correctly, its release was rumored to be pushed back before the Boot Camp and BIOS firmware support announcements. I am still somewhat bewildered by the timing of it all, but I suppose it could be because Apple is busy integrating and consolidating everything into a more compact package within Leopard itself. Imagine a customizable startup in the System Preferences alongside Apple's own built-in virtualization capability. $40 for Parallels solution won't seem like such a steal then.

 

[Steve.s]

Any reason Q --> http://www.kberg.ch/q/ wasn't on that list? Its open source free and was available before parallels. Does it suck?

 

[gauchogolfer]

So Microsoft is unfamiliar with the Intel hardware architecture. That explains a lot.

Thanks, thanks a lot. Now I have to clean off my table since I spit cereal all over it. Thanks.

 

[boncellis]

...I'm just saying that if Apple bought the rights to VPC (including maybe importing some of Microsoft's VPC developers who are intimately familiar with the code) and then used it as a base for their overhaul, that would be easier in some ways than starting from scratch.

That is a definite possibility. The first thing that came to my mind after the initial surprise wore off the day Boot Camp was unveiled was "what was the quid pro quo with MS?"

Maybe VPC was involved in a deal like that...of course, I could just be off my rocker.

By the way, where were the rumors from TS and AI or OSXRumors regarding Boot Camp? That came out of nowhere--if it's not hardware I guess it's not worth reporting.

 

[mattster16]

I'm pretty sure Microsoft recompiled Xbox 1 games for the Xbox 360 instead of using emulation.

How would they recompile a disk people already own from before the 360? You don't have to go out and buy a new "Xbox 360 compiled Xbox 1" game. It's clear they are using emulation.

 

[aussie_geek]

The only thing that sux about this, is that pc users reading through these threads might think that this is just pro-Mac propoganda.

All I can say is, IT'S TOTALLY TRUE!

I'm surprised at how many people in my workplace have forgotten that we sell PowerMacs. On Friday and today, I had to remind a couple of the techs that Apple has Macintosh tower CPU's. They've just become so accustomed to seeing only Apple iMacs and noteBooks, that they had forgotten about them.

I then took the side panel off one of the PowerMacs and showed them how clean everything is inside. Obviously, the PCI Express slot is what caused the most commotion amongst the "gamers".

However, the pricing is still out of reach for most of them since the lowest priced PowerMac is $1999, with the next 2 models coming in at $2499 and $2999.

I hope the new Intel "Mac Pros" that replace these Powermacs are Dual Core Duo's [Quad Core] across the line, then the price can stay the same and be justified.

I wish Apple would introduce a couple of "Mac mini Pro" towers with single Core Duo's and PCI Express at $999ish and $1299ish price points to compete with all those tower pc's that are around those price points [even lower after rebates ].

This would be a nice Mac lineup:

- Except for Mac mini Core Solo, all Macs should have at least Core Duos and Superdrives.
- Except for both Mac minis, all Macs should have dedicated graphics cards. - All "MacBooks/MacBook Pros" should be widescreen
- I have dropped the "i" from the iMac line and renamed them "Mac"
- I have adjusted both 15" MacBook Pro prices to previously seen PowerBook pricing

$0599 - Mac mini [Core Solo / integrated graphics]
$0799 - Mac mini [Core Duo / integrated graphics / SuperDrive with iDVD]
$0999 - Mac mini Pro [single Core Duo mini-tower]
$0999 - MacBook [11" or 13" / 64MB VRAM ATI x1300]
$1299 - Mac mini Pro [single Core Duo mini-tower]
$1299 - MacBook [13" 128MB VRAM ATI x1300]
$1299 - Mac [17"]
$1499 - MacBook Pro [13" / 128MB VRAM]
$1699 - Mac [20"]
$1799 - MacBook Pro 15" / 128MB VRAM]
$1999 - Mac Pro [dual Core Duo tower]
$2299 - MacBook Pro [15" / 256MB VRAM]
$2499 - Mac Pro [dual Core Duo tower]
$2999 - Mac Pro [dual Core Duo tower]
$2999 - MacBook Pro [17"... dual Core Duo ]

You may go ahead and start praising my all knowing self now.

* changes into flame retardant suit *

Way too many products to sell there mate..


aussie_geek

 

[mozmac]

Keep bringing on the virtualization. This is all such great news! Apple computers just gained so much more power.

 

[BillyShears]

Way too many products to sell there mate..

I actually thought that, too. But I chekced it out and Apple currently sells 13 computers. MacQuest suggested selling 15. It's probably the way he organized it like that, compared to Apple making a page in their store with two options per model (e.g. Two MacBook Pro options on the MBP page in the store. Three for the Power Mac.)

 

[boncellis]

Way too many products to sell there mate..


aussie_geek

I won't reiterate BillyShears' comments as they echo my own--I would like to see a product in between the Mini and the iMac, but I might be in the minority.

I just thought it was ironic that you would say "way too many products." Judging by your signature you might have to go out and get what MacQuest described just out of principle.

 

[Miner Willy]

... I would like to see a product in between the Mini and the iMac, but I might be in the minority.

There used to be one until apple culled it recently, the eMac. Super tough, trusty, if a little slow now. A mini tower would be great for those who have alreadly got external drives but need more power than a Mac Mini.

 

[ziutek]

How would they recompile a disk people already own from before the 360? You don't have to go out and buy a new "Xbox 360 compiled Xbox 1" game. It's clear they are using emulation.

Um...not exactly.
To run old xbox games you have to download a recompiled binary of the game off of xbox live. You still use your orignal xbox 1 games for all the data.

Here's an article that backs me up:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8996

 

[MacQuest]

Too many? Just remove 2 and that's Apple's current line-up.

This would be a nice Mac lineup:

- Except for Mac mini Core Solo, all Macs should have at least Core Duos and Superdrives.
- Except for both Mac minis, all Macs should have dedicated graphics cards. - All "MacBooks/MacBook Pros" should be widescreen
- I have dropped the "i" from the iMac line and renamed them "Mac"
- I have adjusted both 15" MacBook Pro prices to previously seen PowerBook pricing

$0599 - Mac mini [Core Solo / integrated graphics]
$0799 - Mac mini [Core Duo / integrated graphics / SuperDrive with iDVD]
$0999 - MacBook [11" or 13" / 64MB VRAM ATI x1300]
$1099 - Mac mini Pro [single Core Duo mini-tower]
$1199 - MacBook [13" 128MB VRAM ATI x1300]
$1299 - Mac [17"]
$1399 - Mac mini Pro [single Core Duo mini-tower]
$1499 - MacBook Pro [13" / 128MB VRAM]
$1699 - Mac [20"]
$1799 - MacBook Pro 15" / 128MB VRAM]
$1999 - Mac Pro [dual Core Duo tower]
$2299 - MacBook Pro [15" / 256MB VRAM]
$2499 - Mac Pro [dual Core Duo tower]
$2999 - Mac Pro [dual Core Duo tower]
$2999 - MacBook Pro [17"... dual Core Duo ]

Way too many products to sell there mate..


aussie_geek

Really? I figured someone would say that. Actually, I only added 2 hypothetical ones; Mac mini Pro [mini towers] @ $999 and $1299. I've revised those Mac mini Pro's prices to $1099 and $1399 after giving it some thought though.

It makes sense to me that Apple might introduce 1 or maybe 2 upgradeable towers at half the cost [$1099 - $1499] of the current PowerMacs [$1999 - $2999], but still nearly twice the cost of the Mac minis [$599 -$799]. Especially now that Boot Camp and Intels virtualization allows winBlows XP to run on our Intel Macs. These would be perfect for gamers, working professionals who don't require workstation level hardware [such as the PowerMacs / Mac Pros] or that level's pricing , and anyone else who would like upgradeable hardware.

I added the 13" MacBook Pro @ $1499 because whether or not it will be in the MacBook Pro line or be the highest in the MacBook line, is irrelevant. It is in Apple's current line, and I believe there will be a notebook unit at that price point.

But if that line-up seems a little "too much", then just remove 2 and that's the same number of units in Apple's current line-up.

 

[phatpat88]

Microsoft making a VPC? Ya RIGHT!

If Microsoft can't build a proper WMP, and instead just paid Flip4Mac to do it, I have the feeling that they Will eventually just make a deal w/ one of the companies already with working Betas to provide their software Free in order to allow Microsoft to sell more copies of WinBloze.

I think If they can get their act together, they need to FOCUS ON OFFICE and really start some innovation there- they have a good product attachment rate with that - and It is crucial for them to hold onto that, less the open source software gain a bigger foothold for WORD and EXCEL. [Think: Buying a new Mac? Mail and NeoOffice= FREE, and keynote for those with more professional needs]

 

[javierbds]

I believe MS has versions of its products for 'Mactels'.
I believe it is not in their interest to release them yet ...
(also because there is not yet a big enough installed base)
(not all reasons are similar to buying a basic interpreter for 1$ ... )

I believe Apple is opening all options with MS (and other big names Adobe ...) to avoid being slowed down on 'Mactel' adoption ...

I believe Vista vs Leopard is going to be a BIG time in the history of personal computers.

I believe !!!

 

[Elijahg]

Maybe Apple will only allow Windows to run in a window, not as the only operating system after Leopard is released. i.e. Windows will not be able to start independently, it would need to be started from within Leopard.

 

[MacQuest]

I actually thought that, too. But I chekced it out and Apple currently sells 13 computers. MacQuest suggested selling 15.

Looks like you rushed to my defense before I could defend myself.
I wouldn't post a totally outlandish line-up, I was posting what Apple already has and simply added 2 items that I think would fill a very obvious gap in our Mac line-up. Non-workstation performance, size, or priced mini towers.

The Mac mini Pro.

With Boot Camp and Intel virtualization technology utilizing software crawling out of the woodwork [Parallel, VMWare, VirtualPC?], this would be an EXCELLENT time to introduce 1 or preferrably 2 of these Mac mini Pros IMO!

Also, for those that think I listed too many products, remember that we had two 12" Powerbooks [combo and superdrive] at all stores until just a while ago. So Apple had 14 Macs for a good while there. Kinda makes my 15 not seem like "too many products", right "mate" (aussie_geek)?

I won't reiterate BillyShears' comments as they echo my own--I would like to see a product in between the Mini and the iMac, but I might be in the minority.

I don't think you're in the minority at all boncellis. But to be more accurate, these Mac mini Pro's would be more like a product in between the display-less Mac mini and the display-less Power Macs/Mac Pros.

There is a $1200 price difference between the high end Mac mini @ $799 and the lowest-end PowerMac/Mac Pro @ $1999. There is definately room for another product line and a Mac or two in there.

The more I think about it, these Mac mini Pro towers might be EXACTLY what Apple was planning for when they released the Mac minis with integrated graphics. Of course, I'm sure cost also played a factor.

I just can't help but think of the potential huge sales that Apple would gain by introducing a couple of $1000 - $1500 Mac mini Pro upgradeable towers at this point, especially with Boot Camp and virtualization now available.

There are sooo many winBlows hardware manufacturers out there producing peecees at these price points, or at even less than $1000. I just don't think that Apple needs to take the "low" (price) road on this, since they can basically say, "2 computers for the price of 1, and we have something all of them don't; Mac OS X".

GREAT TIME TO BE A MAC USER!!!

 

[kirktalon]

Any reason Q --> http://www.kberg.ch/q/ wasn't on that list? Its open source free and was available before parallels. Does it suck?

I would be interested in how to get this to work. I think the documentation on this sucks but maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

It will be interesting to see how long the PPC Macs will be supported.

The first $800 I have free might just go for a Mac Mini.

 

[SmpDigital]

I have a feeling Apple has something significant in store for Leopard.

I think that too, eventually boot camp will become something like what classic was on earlier Mac OS X versions, maybe anything by means of user switching?

 

[TheNightPhoenix]

Um...not exactly.
To run old xbox games you have to download a recompiled binary of the game off of xbox live. You still use your orignal xbox 1 games for all the data.

Here's an article that backs me up:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8996

Errr No, it is emulation. It even says so on xbox360.com.

"As you’ve heard from us before, backward compatibility on Xbox 360 is done through software. Now that we’ve solved the technical challenge and the emulator is working, we’re certifying each original Xbox title by hand to run on Xbox 360.

What I’m really proud to tell you and your readers is that it’s easy to get the emulation software, and it’s free. We’ll give gamers a choice—you can get the latest software updates from Xbox Live, burn a CD from xbox.com or sign up on Xbox.com for a CD that can be delivered to your home at a nominal shipping and handling fee. Once you get the CD, put it in your Xbox 360 and you’re ready to go"

 

[BillyShears]

Um...not exactly.
To run old xbox games you have to download a recompiled binary of the game off of xbox live. You still use your orignal xbox 1 games for all the data.

Here's an article that backs me up:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8996

That article is from May 19 2005 and I am pretty sure it is wrong.

Wikipedia says: "Backward compatibility is achieved through software emulation of the original Xbox hardware."

Xbox.com says: "Note: A software emulator is required for each original Xbox game you play on your Xbox 360™ console."

Updates to the emulator are downloaded from Xbox Live.

 

[magi.sys]

Am I the only one thinking these companies are waisting their time?
There's no way Apple isn't planning on making good use of Intel VT in their next OS revision (10.5). It would be crazy for them not too, especially for OS X Server, but client will likely have the feature too, with Server having more features for it. Microsoft is planning on it for windows, I'm sure Apple is too

 

[bousozoku]

I'm assuming the next OS X version will allow XP within OS X. If this comes true, why would anybody want VirtualPC?

I'm not sure why they would but Virtual PC for Windows arrived as a virtualisation product before Microsoft bought Connectix and it was decent competition against VMWare.

In any case, it's nice to see polished alternatives arriving so quickly. While Microsoft may get a few more sales out of it, I believe that Apple will see a larger surge in sales.

 

[rdowns]

$0599 - Mac mini [Core Solo / integrated graphics]
$0799 - Mac mini [Core Duo / integrated graphics / SuperDrive with iDVD]
$0999 - MacBook [11" or 13" / 64MB VRAM ATI x1300]
$1099 - Mac mini Pro [single Core Duo mini-tower]
$1199 - MacBook [13" 128MB VRAM ATI x1300]
$1299 - Mac [17"]
$1399 - Mac mini Pro [single Core Duo mini-tower]
$1499 - MacBook Pro [13" / 128MB VRAM]
$1699 - Mac [20"]
$1799 - MacBook Pro 15" / 128MB VRAM]
$1999 - Mac Pro [dual Core Duo tower]
$2299 - MacBook Pro [15" / 256MB VRAM]
$2499 - Mac Pro [dual Core Duo tower]
$2999 - Mac Pro [dual Core Duo tower]
$2999 - MacBook Pro [17"... dual Core Duo ]

You may go ahead and start praising my all knowing self now.

* changes into flame retardant suit *

I'm having a Performa flashback.

 

[BillyShears]

Am I the only one thinking these companies are waisting their time?
There's no way Apple isn't planning on making good use of Intel VT in their next OS revision (10.5). It would be crazy for them not too, especially for OS X Server, but client will likely have the feature too, with Server having more features for it. Microsoft is planning on it for windows, I'm sure Apple is too

Maybe, but think about it this way.

1. They've got the virtualization product already for Windows and Linux, it's not like they are making it from scratch. Now, it's a lot of work to get it running on OS X, but the sales they get might make up for that.

2. If they [Parallels, VMWare, MS, etc.] get a good install base, people will be reluctant/unable to switch to Leopard's virtualization. Businesses don't just go updating their servers like that. If virtualization is the only big draw to Leopard, people will be less inclined to update.

3. Leopard is set for late 2006/early 2007. In the mean time, they can clean up in sales.

4. We don't know what form Apple's virtualization technology will take. Maybe they won't support something, maybe it will be really crappy overall.

However, I think virtualization in Leopard means:

1. Competitors need to get the products out ASAP to get as much marketshare as possible.

2. Solutions need to be low-cost since Leopard will most likely be $129, and they [Parallels, VMWare, VPC] may only be interim solutions for many users.

(Besides, don't all OS X software devs eventually get copied by Apple? iPod accessory makers, too.)