Apple Partnering With Sony to Bring Apple Pay to Japan

[Mark.]

The Oyster system in London is great. It already works with Apple Pay (and other contactless payment cards), and gets all the benefits of a physical Oyster card (daily/weekly fare capping etc.).

It's actually been proven that Apple Pay/contactless can work out cheaper than using a physical oyster card.

They are advertised as the same price, however the backend systems are different and AP/contactless can work out your usage more intelligently and apply discounts/caps more effectively leading to a slight reduction overall.

 

[EddieT]

Is FeliCa that much faster than regular contactless? The latter is already pretty fast.

 

[dubnde]

Would potentially be pretty sweet to have that here in NYC for the subway/bus. If I didn't have to ever deal with a Metrocard machine again in my life, I'd be happy.

FELICA is just a different NFC flavour.

http://www.sony.net/Products/felica/NFC/img/index_02.jpg

All major contactless solutions such as ApplePay, VISA, Mastercard all use NFC. It is possible for a single device to support all types of depicted in the diagram above.
[doublepost=1473243017][/doublepost]

Is FeliCa that much faster than regular contactless? The latter is already pretty fast.

FELICA (NFC Type-F) is not necessarily faster. It can do 212 or 424kbps. NFC Type-A or NFC-Type B which is the current ApplePay can do either 106 or 212 or 424 or 848 kbps. Depends on how/what is chose as meeting the business requirements. So it is just a different modulation and coding but it is all NFC.

 

[neil_cm17]

Is FeliCa that much faster than regular contactless? The latter is already pretty fast.

Contactless on the London Underground is pretty fast.
[doublepost=1473244487][/doublepost]I have a friend who has visited Japan quite a few times on business and he says Japan still predominantly a cash driven society in that the use and acceptance of credit and debit card tends to be low. Though a did read somewhere that there is a drive to improve that. Wouldn't it make sense for the transport authorities in Tokyo to move away from a proprietary system towards accepting contactless debit and credit cards in time for the Olympics in 2020?

 

[Tech198]

At first I liked this that Apple is doing this but then I realized... "Wait... it doesn't matter what technology u use. Apple just want u to use Apple Pay... No matter how simple yours is "Our's" is better"

It's one thing asking banks here in Australia to get on-board with Apple pay, but it's another, when a system like using Octopus cards or FeliCa (a better system), probably more secure but who knows, Apple obviously doesn't care too much about how good it is,, they're only interested in the why aren't u using Apple pay.. That's all they care about.

I wonder how many Japanese will take this up... or just use their usual secure method of tap to pay they normally do regardless...

I guess u'r always in a hurry, then Apple pay will be good... but really,, who cares ? u can't stay still for 5 seconds ?

 

[sjwhnlth]

(Emphasis mine.) Possession of Japanese citizenship is not a requirement to obtain and to use a FeliCa-compatible card in Japan (PASMO, Suica, etc.) A foreign tourist can buy a FeliCa-compatible card immediately upon arriving in Japan. I seriously doubt Apple will demand a Japanese passport or other proof of Japanese citizenship as part of iPhone FeliCa activation. (And how would that work anyway? Bring your Japanese passport to an Apple Store in Japan? As it happens, that'd probably be illegal discrimination under Japanese law.)

I think a copy editor needs to take a look at this report and fix it.

Agreed.
I think they meant "Japan residents". It's true anyone can get a FeliCa-based card in Japan, but to fund the e-wallet, etc., you have to pay cash - which is not really what you are looking for.
The only other option is linking your Japan-issued credit card, for which one requires to be a resident of Japan (not necessarily a citizen).

 

[S.B.G]

Nice to see Apple Pay being employed in more ways around the globe. I find it quite useful myself and hope to see more places in my local area embrace it.

 

[finnns2000]

but according to Nikkei, Apple Pay is not likely to launch until Japan until next year

Huh?

 

[Bubba Satori]

Maybe Apple can partner with HP and Dell to make up to date computers.

 

[Ihatefall]

At first I liked this that Apple is doing this but then I realized... "Wait... it doesn't matter what technology u use. Apple just want u to use Apple Pay... No matter how simple yours is "Our's" is better"

It's one thing asking banks here in Australia to get on-board with Apple pay, but it's another, when a system like using Octopus cards or FeliCa (a better system), probably more secure but who knows, Apple obviously doesn't care too much about how good it is,, they're only interested in the why aren't u using Apple pay.. That's all they care about.

I wonder how many Japanese will take this up... or just use their usual secure method of tap to pay they normally do regardless...

I guess u'r always in a hurry, then Apple pay will be good... but really,, who cares ? u can't stay still for 5 seconds ?

I have lived in Japan on and off again a few times in the last ten years.

The thing about the FeliCa system is that is mostly used for pre-Paid cards, like the metro card. You don't put your credit card on it, your pre-load it with a certain amount. (I usually load mine with around $100 at a time.) you can almost pre load a monthly train pass on it. My friends are already buying a special card to block the nfc from the iPhone so that they can put their Suica card (FeliCa card for the JR rail system) in their phone case. They will adopt this FROM DAY ONE!
They had Flip phones with it built in back in 2005! It was a major gripe about switching to iPhone 3G when it came to Japan in 2008.

In regards to standing still for 5 seconds, no you can't. At the busiest train stations during rush hour, the gates don't open after you pay, they stay open and they close if you don't. You can run through the gate, tap it and it will process that payment.
Go watch a YouTube video of how crazy Shinjuku, Shibuya, or Ikebukuro station can get daily. (Worlds 3 busiest station in volume of people moved.)

I live next to Ikebukuro station and get off at a smaller nearby station and walk an extra 5 mins just to avoid the chaos of I can.

TL;DR version

No you can't stop for 5 seconds when the station is processing 1 million riders per hour.
[doublepost=1473254043][/doublepost]

Nice to see Apple Pay being employed in more ways around the globe. I find it quite useful myself and hope to see more places in my local area embrace it.

This isn't Apply pay per se, its NFC payment system. I used this 11 years ago the first time I visited Japan.

 

[foxconn]

Apple demands a cut, the stores/bank have cheaper alternatives that work, so it is Apple's fault.

sigh..

it's the banks, not the stores.

i'm using apple pay in family owned stores (not chains) that accept TAP, no mention of apple pay whatsoever in the store.

i went to the dry cleaners, owned by an older family that i've been going to for most of my life, and i used it there because their system supports tap. this is canada of course, not america, where everything is backwards in terms of the payment system. but i've been using apple pay almost everywhere (except walmart)

 

[kdarling]

I've always said that the Apple Watch would be a 'must-buy' for me the day I can configure it to store my metro card, my Hilton room key, and my Disney Fast Pass.

If Apple would open up NFC, then I'd bet there'd be passcard and key unlock apps all over the place.

It's actually been proven that Apple Pay/contactless can work out cheaper than using a physical oyster card.

They are advertised as the same price, however the backend systems are different and AP/contactless can work out your usage more intelligently and apply discounts/caps more effectively leading to a slight reduction overall.

Are you talking about the weekly cap? If so, then yes either contactless payment or a weekly Oyster travelcard can save money.

Except that the contactless cap week runs from Monday to Sunday. So if someone was visiting from say, Wednesday to Wednesday, they'd be better off with the weekly Oyster card instead.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...be-London-avoid-paying-weekly-travelcard.html

Is FeliCa that much faster than regular contactless? The latter is already pretty fast.

From what I've read, FeliCa cards always communicate at the fastest rate, while most physical contactless cards default to the slowest rate. That's where a lot of the "four times faster" comparison comes from.

FeliCa also apparently has a quicker startup handshake sequence, which gives it another advantage for need-a-super-fast-tap situations like train stations.

 

[Rigby]

It's actually been proven that Apple Pay/contactless can work out cheaper than using a physical oyster card.

They are advertised as the same price, however the backend systems are different and AP/contactless can work out your usage more intelligently and apply discounts/caps more effectively leading to a slight reduction overall.

Rest assured that your public transport system is the envy of the rest of the world. When I was visiting London earlier this summer it was super convenient. I could get anywhere quickly and easily by bus and Tube, and tapping in via Apple Pay worked right from the airport. No need to buy any prepaid tickets, and no worries of huge fares accumulating due to the capping. The only thing TfL need to work on is the heat in the Tube during the summer.

 

[ignatius345]

FELICA is just a different NFC flavour.

http://www.sony.net/Products/felica/NFC/img/index_02.jpg

All major contactless solutions such as ApplePay, VISA, Mastercard all use NFC. It is possible for a single device to support all types of depicted in the diagram above.
[doublepost=1473243017][/doublepost]

FELICA (NFC Type-F) is not necessarily faster. It can do 212 or 424kbps. NFC Type-A or NFC-Type B which is the current ApplePay can do either 106 or 212 or 424 or 848 kbps. Depends on how/what is chose as meeting the business requirements. So it is just a different modulation and coding but it is all NFC.

Good to know, thanks for the clarification!

 

[msp3]

Mobile Suica support? Waterproofing? It's like I've gone back to the new phone market in Japan in 2007! (Still missing OneSeg, to be fair the 3GS had an add-on for this when it launched on SoftBank)

Jokes aside, are all iPhone 7 models getting FeliCa compatibility? Can we take our US iPhones and pay at any FeliCa-compatible terminal in Japan? Will there be FeliCa support outside of Japan? Compared to somewhere like Japan, even our modern-day NFC standards are still ****.

 

[BSben]

Maybe Apple can partner with HP and Dell to make up to date computers.

I want a computer that crashes and I want viruses too, so bring it on.

 

[Bubba Satori]

I want a computer that crashes and I want viruses too, so bring it on.

That was a great comeback 20 years ago.

 

[AnonMac50]

Octopus is actually based on FeliCa, so there is some hope.

Hopefully!

 

[rworne]

i went to the dry cleaners, owned by an older family that i've been going to for most of my life, and i used it there because their system supports tap. this is canada of course, not america, where everything is backwards in terms of the payment system. but i've been using apple pay almost everywhere (except walmart)

I've been using it as much as I can as well, but since we (U.S.) switched over to the new "Chip and Signature" CC system, I've found a lot of retailer's pay terminals are broken.

One insisted I insert my phone in the chip card slot, and recently the Staples' terminal (that says "Apple Pay") immediately tried to do a tap and pay without waiting for me to use my fingerprint to authorize the transaction. Trader Joes always does it as a debit transaction and I get payment denied even with PIN entry. The Apple Pay terminals in EWR airport also refuse to work and decline transactions despite displaying the Apple Pay logo on the LCD screen. Finally, a local McDonald's took out their terminals and replaced them with new ones without contactless payment antenna on top.

 

[BlankSlate]

Apple made it sound like this was exclusive to Japan only, maybe they will get a different nfc chip or something? Sucks for foreigners that travel to Japan often, if that is the case.

 

[tmiw]

Finally, a local McDonald's took out their terminals and replaced them with new ones without contactless payment antenna on top.

A lot of Apple Pay supporting retailers don't have the external readers but it still works. The NFC reader is actually behind/around the display so holding the phone/watch over that will still let you pay.

 

[BBCWatcher]

I think they meant "Japan residents". It's true anyone can get a FeliCa-based card in Japan, but to fund the e-wallet, etc., you have to pay cash - which is not really what you are looking for.

Japan is still very much a cash society, and the vast majority of FeliCa-based cards are replenished with cash at top-up machines. Unfortunately the top-up machines that accept PASMO, Suica, and other FeliCa cards don't have slots for iPhones.

The only other option is linking your Japan-issued credit card, for which one requires to be a resident of Japan (not necessarily a citizen).

Past residents of Japan can also have Japanese credit cards. Also, JCB (the Japanese credit card network) has a few card issuers in other countries, including in the U.S. And I think even tourists can buy prepaid debit Visa/MasterCard cards in Japan, such as the Vanilla card, at convenience stores in Japan.

All that said, I think Apple will have to pay attention to some very important details to make a FeliCa-enabled product that'll work in the real world....

If Apple can somehow unify wallets then that might be interesting. There are a dozen or more different FeliCa-enabled card networks, usually regional, and Card A often doesn't work on Card B's network. If your single iPhone can at least have multiple FeliCa wallets, that could replace several cards for some people. (Better yet there'd be one pool of stored/replenished funds, but that'd probably require card network cooperation that's unlikely.)

FeliCa cards are fast at transit/train gates and elsewhere. There's no messing around with fingerprints, PINs, or anything else. An Apple Watch could work well here, but taking the time to press your finger in the right spot on your iPhone just isn't going to work. It'll slow down the rush hour flow, and that's not good at all. The plastic cards have a big advantage here, or they could if Apple doesn't (re)design this correctly. Yes, I know, "security," but it's a 300 yen densha ride in Japan, or whatever. Nobody cares about the three people per year nationally who ride on a stolen card. (The statistic will be something like that -- I'm not exaggerating.)

One way Apple could handle this is to allow users to set yen and/or transaction count limits on non-fingerprint/PIN purchases. So for your 300 yen train ride you only tap and go, just like the plastic card. For buying 6 bottles of the most expensive sake 7-11 sells, you'll need to hold your finger on the home button. Something like that could work.

 

[Rigby]

FeliCa cards are fast at transit/train gates and elsewhere. There's no messing around with fingerprints, PINs, or anything else. An Apple Watch could work well here, but taking the time to press your finger in the right spot on your iPhone just isn't going to work. It'll slow down the rush hour flow, and that's not good at all.

There's a trick: Double-click the homebutton (with the phone being locked) as you approach the gate. That'll bring up Apple Pay *and* authentiate your fingerprint. You then have one minute to do the actual tap-in, which is just as fast as using a card. This worked very well for me with the Oyster system when I was visiting London recently.