To some a keyboard is just a keyboard, they don't write a lot and have possibly never learned to touch type. To those of us who do touch type the tactile feedback you get from a keyboard makes all the difference. A suppose a better analogy would be an great artist can paint with any paint and paint brush, but we all know the results would differ greatly depending on which paint and paintbrushes were used.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple Patents Switch-Less Force Touch Keyboard, Could Lead to Thinner Macs
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
To some a keyboard is just a keyboard, they don't write a lot and have possibly never learned to touch type. To those of us who do touch type the tactile feedback you get from a keyboard makes all the difference. A suppose a better analogy would be an great artist can paint with any paint and paint brush, but we all know the results would differ greatly depending on which paint and paintbrushes were used.
Do you know what is happening that I am realizing and it has been told around already? the best brains, the best young minds are into social media and creating apps. No one is creating hardware, no one is innovating in hardware. Everybody is focussed in software only and to get "likes". Apple should be having already a super tower for rendering stuff, but the new generation is not focussed in generating new things, is focussed in "likes", that that does not requires "horse power".
For example, Apple is just making things thinner, Hollywood is working on re runs. Everybody is playing safe because there are not enough good minds for creating new stuff. More than 50% of what is in movies are re runs. And if you take a look, innovation stop happening since 2007-2010... when Facebook started to gain track. People are too addicted to social media and those hours used to be used into some other more constructive things before.
Unlikely. I remember a touch-pad keyboard on an Atari 400. It was awful. The Atari 800 had a normal keyboard. Night and day. The current keyboards already suck compared to years past. I can't see how having less key travel is going to make it feel "better" when good travel + spring-back force = best feel on any keyboard I've ever used. The absolute BEST keyboards ever made were the IBM style ones with individual springs on each key (I've got a few in my closet; they use old serial connections, but I have a PS2 adapter and then you can put a USB adapter on that adapter. Kind of a kludge and they don't have "command" or "windows" keys and such, but NOTHING compares for doing a LOT of typing (e.g. writing a book). I'm surprised there isn't a company out there making a modern version to sell as a "high end" desktop keyboard.
I just ordered some crazy keyboard that lights up like TRON in 3 different colors (Aula 3-LED keyboard). No idea how it will "feel" but it sure looks sweet. (got a ETEKCITY mouse to "match" the glowing color design here as well). Glow in the dark time. No thanks to boring as hell Apple keyboards that don't even offer numeric keypads anymore. WTF would I NOT want a numeric keyboard on a DESKTOP computer? Apple are out of their minds anymore with their smaller/thinner obsession. It makes sense on notebooks to some extent (I think there's a limit there as well where I'd choose better function), but it makes almost no sense on desktops.
Unlikely. I remember a touch-pad keyboard on an Atari 400. It was awful. The Atari 800 had a normal keyboard. Night and day. The current keyboards already suck compared to years past. I can't see how having less key travel is going to make it feel "better" when good travel + spring-back force = best feel on any keyboard I've ever used. The absolute BEST keyboards ever made were the IBM style ones with individual springs on each key (I've got a few in my closet; they use old serial connections, but I have a PS2 adapter and then you can put a USB adapter on that adapter. Kind of a kludge and they don't have "command" or "windows" keys and such, but NOTHING compares for doing a LOT of typing (e.g. writing a book). I'm surprised there isn't a company out there making a modern version to sell as a "high end" desktop keyboard.
I just ordered some crazy keyboard that lights up like TRON in 3 different colors (Aula 3-LED keyboard). No idea how it will "feel" but it sure looks sweet. (got a ETEKCITY mouse to "match" the glowing color design here as well). Glow in the dark time. No thanks to boring as hell Apple keyboards that don't even offer numeric keypads anymore. WTF would I NOT want a numeric keyboard on a DESKTOP computer? Apple are out of their minds anymore with their smaller/thinner obsession. It makes sense on notebooks to some extent (I think there's a limit there as well where I'd choose better function), but it makes almost no sense on desktops.
I have faith only because the Force Touch touch pad on my MacBook Pro is so good. It feels better than any of Apples previous touch pads which is saying something as they were all brilliant and the benchmark by which touch pads have been judged for a decade.
If you've tried it, you know as I do that it really feels like real clicks with the same depth as the older track pads had, and yet it doesn't move.
Will that technology translate well to the keyboard? I don't know, but maybe we'll find out.
You just said "No one is innovating in hardware. Apple is innovating in hardware by making things thinner"
You just proved yourself wrong. If you want to try to disprove this by saying this thinness is not innovation, then that's debatable depending on how you spin it. I say it is innovation. Others like you say it is not.
You make very good points. But you need to think about this over decades and not years. Compared to the powerbooks of the 1990's, the current MBPs are better. Things might get better or worse from one year to the next, but over the decades it's better Apple is waging it's war on making things thinner.
Ah, I see where you were going there. And yeah, I like the artist analogy better. But as someone who has learned to touch-type, I'm going to stand by my statement that I don't know a single skilled typist who requires a specific tactile feel in order to type at their full capacity. They adapt to whatever medium they're presented with.
Not being a painter, I can't say with any authority how this might work, but it seems to me that a truly skilled painter, who understands the way mediums and colors differ, would be able to adapt their ability to make something beautiful and striking out of fingerpaints on a whiteboard.
So I disagree with you, but I do understand your point.
I touch-type quite well, thanks -- usually around 80wpm without looking at the keyboard. Any other broad falsehoods you'd like to share?
*almost no sense for you.No thanks to boring as hell Apple keyboards that don't even offer numeric keypads anymore. WTF would I NOT want a numeric keyboard on a DESKTOP computer? Apple are out of their minds anymore with their smaller/thinner obsession. It makes sense on notebooks to some extent (I think there's a limit there as well where I'd choose better function), but it makes almost no sense on desktops.
Fixed it for you. Because it makes great ergonomic sense on my desktop at work, where I do a lot of text entry but very little numeric entry. Having the mouse just those few inches closer to the centerline of my typing posture is more comfortable and even a little more efficient.
You know, for me. To each their own, and isn't it great that Apple isn't the only company on earth so you have options? How cool is that?
I touch type, about 100WPM, and feedback by a keyboard is absolutely critical to fast, accurate typing.
Key travel is integral part of that experience. if there was absolutely no tactile feedback, how would you know when you've activated enough force on the key to know that you've pressed the key?
Mechanical Keyboards aren't just a 'fad'. There is a significant reason why they're so popular.
You make a valid point. I use apple keyboards differently. I don't rest my arms or wrists on the desk or anything when I use a keyboard or mouse with a Mac which can lead to possible carpal tunnel syndrome.
What I said was the truth. Key travel doesnt matter if you know how to type. I type 80+ wpm regardless of key travel. In fact the argument could be made that fingers dont get tired as fast with shorter keytravel because you dont have to press as hard to register the key input.
With less key travel I make less mistakes from not having pressed the key hard enough to register anything despite the fact that I got tactile feedback from the loud annoying sausage keyboard.
There was a guy at work who had to give up his sausage keyboard because people complained constantly about how loud the thing was. So not only is excessive key travel inconsiderate to those around you. It's also error prone and therefore less efficient.
You dont know regardless of the feedback. You have to go by what is on the screen to actually know if the key registered or not.
Youre technically not supposed to rest your wrists on anything. Your wrists are supposed to be straight to minimize carpel tunnel.
Last edited by a moderator:
Okay, maybe I didn't get your point earlier, because I agree 100% with everything you just said here. So you were probably confused because I was parroting your exact argument back at you like it was a contradiction to what you'd said.
So I guess maybe I did understand what you said, I just missed your intent. Oh well. Whatever. I totally support this post, and there I make an end.
In case you haven't noticed, they will always limit the battery life to 9-11 hours. There's simply no need for more battery than that (in their mind).
I stopped carrying the charger to work. I always ends up with 20-30% left after each day.
Can wait to try it
Last edited by a moderator:
Completely, utterly untrue. lies, false. there's not a lick of factualness to your statement in one way or another.
Mechanical keyboards for example, does not have it's actuation point at "bottom". you do not have to press the key all the way to the bottom in order to activate it. Many mechanical keyboards offer feedback in regards to either sound or feel at actuation point.
this allows you to activate the keypresses without having to bottom out, or look at your screen in order to make sure that the key was pressed.
Bubble dome keyboards, which are the standard cheap keyboards also have feedback. While their actuation point is "bottomed out". The Bottoming out is also a feedback type that lets you know when a key has been activated. When your finger force receives hard feedback, you've bottomed out and initiated a keypress.
these are all methods to tell if a keypress occured without ever looking at the screen.
now, you might want to look at the screen to ensure that what you've typed is accurate, spelled right, or even in the correct window, but no, you can entirely type without ever looking at either the keyboard or the screen.
in fact, I wrote this entire reply without looking at either the keyboard or the screen relying entirely on touch typing (spelling mistakes and all).
But if you're trying to be pedantic that you really dont know if your key presses do anything at all ever unless you look. Sure, but if you know you're keyboard is working. And you know the behaviour of the software you are using to accept text. you can reasonably assume that sa long as you're in a window that accepts text input, that your keyboard is relaying information that you type to that text box.
Unlikely. I remember a touch-pad keyboard on an Atari 400. It was awful. The Atari 800 had a normal keyboard. Night and day. The current keyboards already suck compared to years past. I can't see how having less key travel is going to make it feel "better" when good travel + spring-back force = best feel on any keyboard I've ever used. The absolute BEST keyboards ever made were the IBM style ones with individual springs on each key (I've got a few in my closet; they use old serial connections, but I have a PS2 adapter and then you can put a USB adapter on that adapter. Kind of a kludge and they don't have "command" or "windows" keys and such, but NOTHING compares for doing a LOT of typing (e.g. writing a book). I'm surprised there isn't a company out there making a modern version to sell as a "high end" desktop keyboard.
I just ordered some crazy keyboard that lights up like TRON in 3 different colors (Aula 3-LED keyboard). No idea how it will "feel" but it sure looks sweet. (got a ETEKCITY mouse to "match" the glowing color design here as well). Glow in the dark time. No thanks to boring as hell Apple keyboards that don't even offer numeric keypads anymore. WTF would I NOT want a numeric keyboard on a DESKTOP computer? Apple are out of their minds anymore with their smaller/thinner obsession. It makes sense on notebooks to some extent (I think there's a limit there as well where I'd choose better function), but it makes almost no sense on desktops.
Those old IBM spring keyboards were the absolute best. Learned to type on them. They offer tremendous feedback and accuracy! I wish they were still the norm today, unfortunately, they are large, heavy and very expensive. Most people just use whatever cheap POS that comes with their computer, usually a $5 dell keyboard that has rubber domes that not only loose springiness over time, but often show inconsistencies accross the keys for resistence
The closest modern keyboards that have the tactile feedback, but reasonable sized/prices, are the Mechanical Cherry Blue keys. I have a Blue at home, and it's an absolute dream to type on.
Last edited by a moderator:
I thought people knew this. Apple shoots for 10 hour battery life in 90% of circumstances.
I think his point was really that in order to verify your text input, you look at the screen. You'd be crazy to claim you don't. That's uh, you know. What it's there for. So even in the case of a digital glass keyboard, there is feedback of some kind.
As far as what you are saying relates to this article, the patent shows a technology that sure looks like it'd be using a variation of the taptic engine to provide the tactile feedback you're looking for. There will be very little travel, but the tiny clicks under your fingers will be that feedback, equivalent to mechanical switches or bottoming out a rubber dome.
So your claim is that feedback of that type won't be sufficient for people who are touch-typists and do not look at the keyboard while they type. Which I think is bogus, because any manner of feedback should be sufficient for a skilled typist. As I've said before in this thread, a skilled typist will take a few minutes to warm up to a new keyboard, and after that period they're typically able to hit their normal wpm baring actual functional issues with the keyboard (such as the 's' key not working).
They may have a favorite style of keyboard, but it's of no practical importance, and comes down to nothing more than a personal preference. Their ability isn't dependent on the keyboard they are using. I'd even go so far as to say that seeing text pop up on the screen would be enough feedback to allow them to approach their normal speed using a full-size virtual keyboard, such as on the iPad pro. We'll have to see if that pans out.
And if, like myself, your ability is affected by the keyboard you are using? I don't think you can consider yourself a skilled typist. I can average 80wpm on my macbook pro keyboard, and I suspect I'd be slightly quicker on the new macbook. For me, less throw is critical for speed. If the opposite is true for you, by all means continue to use long throw keyboards that have a very distinct click, and just accept you're not the best typist you might be capable of.
If, however, you can average 100 wpm on pretty much every functional keyboard you've used, then awesome. You are a talented typist. But your preference for long throw keystrokes is not a technical verification. It's a personal preference, and should not be presented as anything more than that.
And I'll be honest, I've never been more conscious of the way I type than while writing up this post. Something about typing about the way you're typing... Time to go break out that Mavis Beacon.
I'm thinking this too... but then, I thought the same about the new trackpads when they announced it and was amazed by how 'real' it felt. Could be a pleasant surprise!
I didn't consider that there would be tactile feedback via a haptic engine. Must have missed that. That does change things up.
And yes. I can type very well on a varying form of keyboards. I type quite comfortably on the surface pro keyboards, Mac Book air keyboard is actually quite a pleasure to key on. I'm still in love with the feel of a mechanical keyboard
and I do often, type and submit without looking. Its a bad habit, and I've been burned before. Nothing sucks more than typing the right command in the wrong SSH connection because I was too busy looking elsewhere. I should probably stop doing that.
Possibly. However the returns are diminishing quickly on the thin factor, they need a new selling point besides that.
The 12" Macbook's keyboard is my favorite. I can type faster on it (100+ WPM) than on my RMBP. Less key-travel = less time wasted pressing down on squishy keys. For me, the clickier the better. A force-touch-like keyboard would be amazing.
The best thing would be if the screen of the iPad could just be a force touch keyboard. Even the shallow key haters might come around to that added convenience
The best thing would be if the screen of the iPad could just be a force touch keyboard. Even the shallow key haters might come around to that added convenience
Apple 3DS?
"So that we you are angry, and punching on this gorgeous keyboard, your emotion will be unapologetically expressed on MacRumors's forums."
Last edited by a moderator:
I guess it's a personal preference thing, and yes I can too touch type on any keyboard, but I prefer one with more travel. To keep it simple I think Apple's keyboards are *****! Any misunderstandings with that anyone?
This reminds me a very creative computer, with two touch screens, one in conventional screen place, while the other is in the place where keyboard was.