Apple Pay Faces Swiss Antitrust Investigation Over NFC Access

[I7guy]

There are no “hundreds of competitors” in the Swiss NFC consumer payment devices for payment providers to tap into.

There’s Google Pay and Apple pay that dominate the market.

Sure there are. Each manufacturer is a competitor. And there are more payment systems than the two mentioned.

 

[turbineseaplane]

FWIW, I don't think they're complying maliciously, I do think they're trying to comply to the absolutely least extent possible. But those aren't the same thing.

Actual malicious compliance would be something like "ok, apps can be installed from anywhere, we're not going to do security checks or notarization checks, and when users reach out to complain about getting viruses we'll provide them the contact information of their EU representatives and point out this doesn't happen anywhere else in the world."

Hmm.

I think those who argue they aren’t following the spirit of what they’re being asked to do would say they are maliciously complying.

I think there’s probably a spectrum here. I don’t think you have to go all the way to doing the worst possible version of complying for it to be malicious.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Maybe you’re in a pilot.

Don’t think so.

I just never given in to subscribe to subscribing to Apple Music or tv+ (no not even for a trial).

 

[boswald]

I actually dont like this. What seems good "oh wow more choice" ends up being "You need to download our app to use our credit card nfc and get specialized ads!". Very very quickly.

My bank was doing this nonsense for a while, but then the customers complained and they eventually relented. I’m sick of companies trying to push their crappy apps at us too.

 

[turbineseaplane]

In any case, why are we even arguing about this?

Switzerland is just trying to get on par with what Apple already did for the EU re: NFC.

 

[I7guy]

Hmm.

I think those who argue they aren’t following the spirit of what they’re being asked to do would say they are maliciously complying.

I think there’s probably a spectrum here. I don’t think you have to go all the way to doing the worst possible version of complying for it to be malicious.

Apple is following the law. They either are or they are not. In a general sense the more complicated and complex the law is and attempts to eliminate loopholes is usually why there are loopholes embedded in the law.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Apple is following the law. They either are or they are not. In a general sense the more complicated and complex the law is and attempts to eliminate loopholes is usually why there are loopholes embedded in the law.

You are the one that said they were maliciously complying, not me.

In any case, please see my post above this one.

I don’t even see why we are arguing about this as the EU and Apple have already come to terms on this and Switzerland is just trying to get the same situation it sounds like.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Sure there are. Each manufacturer is a competitor.

Do payment providers enter into separate contracts with Huawei, HMD, Motorola, Samsung, Oppo for Google Pay access on their respective devices?

No, they don’t.

So no.

I’m not sure how the concept of software platforms is so lost on you, or why you so steadfastly refuse to acknowledge it - especially since you did so for Microsoft’s “dominant position”.

It’s like saying “Oh, Microsoft has no dominant position because they’s Asus, Dell, Lenovo, HP etc”

 

[I7guy]

You are the one that said they were maliciously complying, not me.

Applied Micro said they were maliciously complying. Not me.

In any case, please see my post above this one.

I don’t even see why we are arguing about this as the EU and Apple have already come to terms on this and Switzerland is just trying to get the same situation it sounds like.

I’m not arguing I’m discussing. And because “you don’t see why” doesn’t mean others won’t want to discuss. Does that make sense?

 

[ProbablyDylan]

Last time I checked, their NFC technology is not mine as a developer nor anyone else's. It's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

There are so many problems with this...

"You'll own nothing and be happy" vibes

 

[I7guy]

Do payment providers enter into separate contracts with Huawei, HMD, Motorola, Samsung, Oppo for Google Pay access on their respective devices?

No, they don’t.
So no.

There are still hundreds of competitors to Apple. And you’re trying to redefine the market as NFC payment processors.

 

[turbineseaplane]

didn't they add the ability to turn off promotions in wallet?

Where do I do that?

I hit the little "dismiss" X thing every time.

Pisses me off so much.
I shouldn't have to be opting OUT of promotions from Apple on my own device, and I promise you I never opted in.

Maybe Apple "intelligence" can one day realize that if I always hit "X" and never sign up for anything, I don't want their promotions?

 

[AppliedMicro]

There are still hundreds of competitors to Apple.

…with, at most, negligible marketshare.
For payment providers in Switzerland, they pretty much face a duopoly.

And you’re trying to redefine the market as NFC payment processors.

It’s not me.
That’s what this antitrust investigation is concerned with.
It’s not about sales of smartphone hardware devices.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Applied Micro said they were maliciously complying. Not me.

I read this as you acknowledging they are complying maliciously.
I'm really not sure how else one would read it, but my apologies if you didn't mean it this way.

You might want to edit that post.

 

[AppliedMicro]

What seems good "oh wow more choice" ends up being "You need to download our app to use our credit card nfc and get specialized ads!".

The argument doesn’t make any sense - because the payment providers (banks) receive the same transaction data anyway.

No app needed.

 

[AdonisSMU]

You got it wrong: they’re investigating why/how Apple applies different, more “lenient” rules and patterns/UI design than third parties are subject to.

Such as wording/dialogue encouraging users to opt in to being tracked that’s different from to themselves and their own tracking for advertising purposes.

The German antitrust authority don’t have a problem with it, as long as Apple applies the same rules to themselves as they do to their competitors.

Thats ridiculous. Apple is a minority player in Germany. Secondly, there are other monopolies that are far more egregious than going after Apple for not allowing people to be harassed all over the internet via tracking. MSFT Windows, Google Search and YouTube are right there.

 

[sw1tcher]

Last time I checked, their NFC technology is not mine as a developer nor anyone else's. It's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The camera is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The speaker is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The mic is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The Wi-Fi chip is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The modem chip is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

This is ridiculous. If I own the device, let me decide what apps and who can access it.

 

[sw1tcher]

I actually dont like this. What seems good "oh wow more choice" ends up being "You need to download our app to use our credit card nfc and get specialized ads!". Very very quickly.

Luckily for you, you'll have the choice to decide whether or not use that credit card.

Since Android devices give full access to the NFC chip already,

Android devices freely allow third-parties to use NFC technology, but Apple only began allowing Swiss app developers to access its NFC interface in late 2024.

can you cite any credit cards that require downloading a specific app to use them?

 

[turbineseaplane]

The camera is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The speaker is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The mic is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The Wi-Fi chip is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The modem chip is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

This is ridiculous. If I own the device, let me decide what apps and who can access it.

It starts to make one wonder ...

Should a user have to even pay for the iPhone?

It seems like Apple wants to still own it even after they "sold" it to you.

Perhaps they should move iPhone under a new tier of Apple One .. "Apple Complete" or something .. and folks just rent everything from them, even the hardware.

(the problem is that they actually do want the money from selling it to you and STILL control it ... the old having their cake and eating it too routine)

 

[Nekronos]

Where do I do that?

I hit the little "dismiss" X thing every time.

Pisses me off so much.
I shouldn't have to be opting OUT of promotions from Apple on my own device, and I promise you I never opted in.

Maybe Apple "intelligence" can one day realize that if I always hit "X" and never sign up for anything, I don't want their promotions?

go to wallet notification settings - either via settings or directly in wallet app and turn off "offers & promotions" this was added after all the pushback i believe from the popups for F1

 

[Nekronos]

The camera is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The speaker is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The mic is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The Wi-Fi chip is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The modem chip is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

This is ridiculous. If I own the device, let me decide what apps and who can access it.

some of that is certainly anti-competitive behavior, some of it is security related.

As to your last line, that is basically how the android and PC world works.

 

[sw1tcher]

some of that is certainly anti-competitive behavior, some of it is security related.

As to your last line, that is basically how the android and PC world works.

Don't forget that it's also how the Mac works.

On the Mac, I decide what apps to download and install... even ones outside of Apple's App Store.

 

[Nekronos]

There are no “hundreds of competitors” in the Swiss NFC consumer payment devices for payment providers to tap into.

There’s Google Pay and Apple pay that dominate the market.

There's at least several dozen competitors if not more, google and apple certainly dominate the US market but that's not true in every region - every bank and other payment processors like paypal can and do have their own tap to pay functions that would like NFC use.

Apple's NFC restrictions have 100% been anti-competitive.

 

[Abydos]

nfc (near field communications, no f*cking clue ) nominally state the term in full followed by the acronym or do we deal only with insider communication and avoid information transfer

 

[ProbablyDylan]

The camera is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The speaker is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The mic is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The Wi-Fi chip is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

The modem chip is not yours, it's Apple's and they can choose who gets access to it.

This is ridiculous. If I own the device, let me decide what apps and who can access it.

🤓☝️ Ackshually, you own the hardware but only a license to the software that makes it work, bestowed upon you by our benevolent lord Apple. So yes, Apple did choose who gets to access all that stuff that you ostensibly paid for, and they chose you! You should feel blessed to have such a privilege and honor!

I think I'm gonna be sick from writing that