Apple Pay on Apple Watch with an iPhone 5

[uwdude]

Yes I do consider the Touch ID part to be part of the transaction, even though it doesn't go through the merchant terminal. One of the big reasons why the banks got behind this and promoted Pay is because of this unique security on the phone itself. The transaction cannot happen without that, and therefore yes it's part of the transaction. If you're talking about, oh but Google Wallet transactions happen without that, well the banks and carriers didn't get behind that and it turned into a flop didn't it. Apple is revolutionizing here, because they're placing a big piece of the transaction, the validation of the person making it, on the phone or watch, instead of on the merchant terminal.

 

[Julien]

There should be a companion app that has to be download to the iPhone so the watch can be paired with the iPhone and you can change the settings of the watch through the iPhone 5 5s and 5c. I think that is how apple pay is going to work with phones I mentioned

Welcome to 2 weeks ago.

http://9to5mac.com/2015/01/13/apple...p-revealed-with-new-watch-features-monograms/

 

[Runt888]

I'm not sure why you want to keep being wrong but it's amusing. Try using Apple Pay when your thumb isn't on Touch ID. Guess what'll happen? You think there will be options to sign instead? No. You have to use physical card for that.
It's a part of the process. Where the info being used is irrelevant. When you're using credit card for purchase, your signature isn't transmitted when the card is swiped either but without your signature the transaction won't be complete.
Conceptually Touch ID is the same as your signature. If you want to argue, using selective evidences that proves contrary just to be defensive, then carry on. But it's futile.

Sorry, I'm going to go with kdarling on this one. You're basically arguing from two different points of view - you from the users perspective and kdarling from the technical perspective. Apple has chosen to make Touch ID an integral part of the user experience when using Apple Pay, but it is in no way part of the "transaction" (meaning the information that gets exchanged between the phone, the merchant, and the bank). Apple could release an update tomorrow that allowed the user to enter a password instead of using Touch ID, but this wouldn't change the transaction at all.

Edit - And back on topic, this is obvious when it comes to using Apple Pay on the Watch - there is no Touch ID so Apple has chosen a different authentication method, but that method has no effect on the transaction.

 

[matrix07]

Sorry, I'm going to go with kdarling on this one. You're basically arguing from two different points of view - you from the users perspective and kdarling from the technical perspective.

I know this. That's why I thought it's futile. In that strict sense, the signature you signed to confirm the credit card purchase isn't a part of "transaction" either. So it's right as I said: Conceptually Touch ID functions as a signature (to authorise or verify a purchase).

 

[Julien]

....Conceptually Touch ID functions as a signature (to authorise or verify a purchase).

What about using an iPhone 5 or 5C/Watch? There will be no Touch ID available at all.

 

[kdarling]

I know this. That's why I thought it's futile. In that strict sense, the signature you signed to confirm the credit card purchase isn't a part of "transaction" either. So it's right as I said: Conceptually Touch ID functions as a signature (to authorise or verify a purchase).

Touch ID functions as nothing of the sort. That's why signatures are still required when above the signature limit.

To a bank, Touch ID is meaningless, since it does not identify you as the owner of the account. To do that, you'd need to file your prints with the bank.

That's why Touch ID is not required to use Apple Pay. You can use a passcode instead.

Edit - And back on topic, this is obvious when it comes to using Apple Pay on the Watch - there is no Touch ID so Apple has chosen a different authentication method, but that method has no effect on the transaction.

What about using an iPhone 5 or 5C/Watch? There will be no Touch ID available at all.

Exactly.

The merchant terminal has no idea, nor does it care, how the user's NFC payment method was enabled... any more than it cares from which pocket you pulled out a PayPass credit card.

They're all basically just contactless payment cards to the merchant terminal:



On an iPhone, Touch ID is used to make the payments feel more secure and convenient to the user. Which is what I think matrix07 is really trying to say, because it sure does not replace a credit card signature or debit card PIN in the payment flow.

Now, parts of this could change in the future, but that's how it is right now.

 

[matrix07]

Touch ID functions as nothing of the sort. That's why signatures are still required when above the signature limit.

Again, for-a-God-knows-how-many-times, Apple Pay doesn't required signature for credit card purchases at all. Anything that works different than this will be a result of an incomplete, ancient, or not fully compatible systems.

What about using an iPhone 5 or 5C/Watch? There will be no Touch ID available at all.

The ID function will be transferred to the watch, authenticated by PIN, or possibly even by Touch ID in 5s. My guess of course. You can't just wave your watch to pay, you have to make it knows that it's you that wear it first.

 

[Mascots]

Again, for-a-God-knows-how-many-times, Apple Pay doesn't required signature for credit card purchases at all. Anything that works different than this will be a result of an incomplete, ancient, or not fully compatible systems.

 Pay itself does not require a signature, but, depending on the location and purchase amount, you may be required to give a signature to complete the transaction. It is dependent on the store and the amount of liability that they or their credit-handler want to give up. I, personally, have had to sign for at least two  Pay transactions so far.

The signature is a part of the transaction, as it sets liability, and that is why people aren't allowed (or supposed to;]) to go around not signing things nowadays.

 

[Runt888]

I know this. That's why I thought it's futile. In that strict sense, the signature you signed to confirm the credit card purchase isn't a part of "transaction" either. So it's right as I said: Conceptually Touch ID functions as a signature (to authorise or verify a purchase).

The signature is a part of the transaction, as it sets liability, and that is why people aren't allowed (or supposed to;]) to go around not signing things nowadays.

Yes, the signature is given to the merchant and is part of the transaction. The merchant sets the rules as to how much they will allow the customer to spent without requiring a signature. As Mascots said, the signature is related to liability issues, and as such the merchant balances their liability against ease of use for the customer in deciding what the max amount is before a signature is required.

 

[Mascots]

Yes, the signature is given to the merchant and is part of the transaction. The merchant sets the rules as to how much they will allow the customer to spent without requiring a signature. As Mascots said, the signature is related to liability issues, and as such the merchant balances their liability against ease of use for the customer in deciding what the max amount is before a signature is required.

Exactly.

As Touch ID becomes more popular, and with its popularity proves its security, we will eventually see signatures dropped from all because it would have proved that the liability for those transactions is quite low (or might I even suggest: nonexistent?!).

Right now, though, it's best to cover your ass (as a merchant) in case that doesn't hold true, especially for large purchases which can take a hit out of your daily revenue.

 

[matrix07]

 Pay itself does not require a signature, but, depending on the location and purchase amount, you may be required to give a signature to complete the transaction. It is dependent on the store and the amount of liability that they or their credit-handler want to give up. I, personally, have had to sign for at least two  Pay transactions so far.

That's what I said. What he said is beyond a certain amount, Apple Pay user will be required for signature regardless of store, location or CC used. It's obligated. No may, but must.
He never specified how many this threshold is exactly, however.

Yes I do consider the Touch ID part to be part of the transaction, even though it doesn't go through the merchant terminal. One of the big reasons why the banks got behind this and promoted Pay is because of this unique security on the phone itself. The transaction cannot happen without that, and therefore yes it's part of the transaction.

I agree completely

If you're talking about, oh but Google Wallet transactions happen without that,

That's the reason for his argument, I guess. He argued under the assumption that basically Apple Pay is no different than Google Wallet, so Touch ID, which only Apple has, must not be a part of the Apple Pay transaction.

 

[kdarling]

That's what I said. What he said is beyond a certain amount, Apple Pay user will be required for signature regardless of store, location or CC used. It's obligated. No may, but must.
He never specified how many this threshold is exactly, however.

That's because what I and others have said here, is that it's dependent on the purchase and merchant:

Nobody said you had to sign every time. As I noted, and as any credit card or NFC payment user knows, many merchants nowadays only require signatures above a certain threshold.

We still have to sign if the transaction goes above whatever purchase limit the merchant or card scheme has set.

The Apple Pay FAQ even notes it:

In other words, it's just like any other card purchase. Remember, these electronic wallets are emulating a contactless card. They're not some magical new payment method.

What you said was:

I know this. That's why I thought it's futile. In that strict sense, the signature you signed to confirm the credit card purchase isn't a part of "transaction" either. So it's right as I said: Conceptually Touch ID functions as a signature (to authorise or verify a purchase).

Touch ID does not function as a signature, conceptually or otherwise. When the terminal says a signature is required, it's required.

Touch ID only functions as a shortcut for the passcode. Either one can be used.

In the case of using the Apple Watch with say, an iPhone 5C, Touch ID isn't even an option. Its absence, just like its presence on newer devices, will not be noticed by the merchant terminals.

That's the reason for his argument, I guess. He argued under the assumption that basically Apple Pay is no different than Google Wallet, so Touch ID, which only Apple has, must not be a part of the Apple Pay transaction.

From the merchant standpoint, there is no difference. If the merchant has set a limit on purchases above which a signature or PIN is required, it will be required no matter how you unlocked the payment app... whether by passcode, voice, fingerprint or nothing at all.

You're confusing a method of enabling a device payment app, with what is required on the merchant/bank side to complete a transaction. In this case they're simply not related.

 

[matrix07]

That's because what I and others have said here, is that it's dependent on the purchase and merchant:

Then it's has nothing to do with Apple, isn't it? Like I said many posts ago, Apple doesn't control every chains in the system.

Touch ID does not function as a signature, conceptually or otherwise. When the terminal says a signature is required, it's required.

Oh yes, it is. Conceptually it's the universal ID for the phone. For iTunes it is Apple ID. For 3rd party apps it is your ID for said app. For Apple Pay, what is it ID for? Easy. It's the ID of the owner of the card, something you prove in the old way by what?.... That's right. By your signature. Clear?
It resemble the signature than anything else in fact. Because no one has your finger prints, just like your signature is unique to you.

Oh, and why are you still using that screen cap from Apple website that confirmed my point, and everyone else: that Apple Pay doesn't require signature. Do you not understand the word "May" or "Depend on" on that picture? Or the word "Concept"?
And you seem to confuse the 2 step verification with a verification.

 

[8CoreWhore]

I didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me if someone already posted this, but I read that when you put the Watch on, it authenticates with your iPhone. It then knows when the Watch has been taken off so it then loses it's ability to work for Apple Pay. You do not need to touch your iPhone in anyway to use the Watch for Pay.

 

[Julien]

I didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me if someone already posted this, but I read that when you put the Watch on, it authenticates with your iPhone. It then knows when the Watch has been taken off so it then loses it's ability to work for Apple Pay. You do not need to touch your iPhone in anyway to use the Watch for Pay.

I think you meant to put a question mark on your last sentence. If so, then no you don't need to touch your iPhone. You can use Pay/Watch with an iPhone 5 and 5C and they don't even have Touch ID. Also you may even be able to use Pay without having your iPhone on you.

 

[vartanarsen]

Hi guys, i plan on pairing Apple Watch with 5C. I dont intend ot keep connections on all the time, so what I was curious about is whether Watch's NFC is always on, or is it always off, unti you double click the side button to get to Watch Apple Pay? I would rather like if NFC was always off and only activated when you fire up Apple Pay.

 

[vartanarsen]

I didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me if someone already posted this, but I read that when you put the Watch on, it authenticates with your iPhone. It then knows when the Watch has been taken off so it then loses it's ability to work for Apple Pay. You do not need to touch your iPhone in anyway to use the Watch for Pay.

But can you leave your phone at home, jog with the watch, and then stop into McDo's for iced coffee?