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xWhiplash

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
4,598
3,234
That is not true at all. If I bought something directly, I easily call my credit card company to reverse the transaction if something was a scam.

With Apple, it is a pain to get your money back because they refuse it most of the time. And they will block your Apple account if you do a chargeback on your credit card which would normally be an easy way to get your money back.
People like to throw out the credit card dispute like they can reverse charges on ANYTHING. I have been fighting to get a refund of my Dune Case because I ordered it in 2019, with a shipping date of January 2020 and I still have not received it. Credit Card dispute never goes through because "there is proof I have received the item I purchased". Please, don't blindly rely on credit card disputes. Its as it says, a dispute that could not end in your favor. I basically gave up after many attempts and am just out $250.
 

icanhazmac

macrumors 6502a
Apr 11, 2018
973
2,971
Actually Epic does have an argument here. Physical stores can not add tax on gift cards, and they do not take a percentage of the cost.

Not entirely true, the physical stores housing a gift card section do receive a payment for allowing the gift cards to take up space in their store. So while it is not a percentage and I'm fairly sure it isn't 30% they are receiving compensation.

 

jlc1978

macrumors 68040
Aug 14, 2009
3,496
1,913
You think Fortnite will remain on Apple's App Store? It won't, and Epic will buy up exclusive deals like they are on PC instead of having just normal competition.

It will if EPIC gets what it wants: to be able to sell subscriptions outside of IAP and let users know without hinderance from Apple. They will still want to be on the app store to reach Apple's user base, just not give Apple any money for that access. they will no doubt whine whine Apple introduces some other fees to make up for lost revenue.

What I’m trying to figure out is why there is all this sympathy for big developers that are selling more than $1,000,000. They are getting 70%, so why exactly are they deserving of more?

They aren't. The app store not only gives them a much bigger cut at 70% than they got before app stores, they also reach a much broader potential customer base.

Maybe Apple should just charge slotting fees and per d/l. I'm sure fortnight would gladly pay say $3 every time their app is downloaded; plus say $100000 per month to be featured.

Actually Epic does have an argument here. Physical stores can not add tax on gift cards, and they do not take a percentage of the cost. An iTunes gift card at Target for $50, I get $50 in my iTunes account.

Just because you get $50 doesn't mean Apple gets $50. That gift card mall you see in the store is likely run by a broker who handles everything from making the cards to stocking the mall in the stores and takes a cut, gives the store a cut, and the rest to the gift card merchant. You just don't see the split, just like all you see in the app store, or almost any store for that matter, is the end price.

If companies want access to a customer base they will pay for it.
 

xWhiplash

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
4,598
3,234
While I think App Devs should abide by the terms of the App Store if they distribute via the App Store, they should be able to distribute their apps via methods outside the App Store and not follow those rules but Apple disallows that.

I mean is it Apple's lawn? Or the Users? They own the phone, shouldn't it be their choice and not Apples? More an argument to allow 3rd party stores on iOS than force Apple into terms they don't want for their App Store, however.
This analogy also has problems. You might have a lawn but you still need to pay property tax and things like that.
 

xWhiplash

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
4,598
3,234
Not entirely true, the physical stores housing a gift card section do receive a payment for allowing the gift cards to take up space in their store. So while it is not a percentage and I'm fairly sure it isn't 30% they are receiving compensation.

Did you.....not read my entire post? I said there is probably a cost for the PHYSICAL SPACE, but not per gift card.
 

xWhiplash

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
4,598
3,234
Just because you get $50 doesn't mean Apple gets $50. That gift card mall you see in the store is likely run by a broker who handles everything from making the cards to stocking the mall in the stores and takes a cut, gives the store a cut, and the rest to the gift card merchant. You just don't see the split, just like all you see in the app store, or almost any store for that matter, is the end price.
You and the other person......did you not read my entire post? There is most likely a cost for the physical storage of taking up space in the store. But the place does NOT take a cut on every single gift card sold. And yes, I have talked to managers before after someone tried to apply tax on a gift card, they explicitly stated there is NO markup per gift card. They didn't go into the storage space costs however, and like I said they for sure exists.
 

icanhazmac

macrumors 6502a
Apr 11, 2018
973
2,971
Did you.....not read my entire post? I said there is probably a cost for the PHYSICAL SPACE, but not per gift card.

Instead of snark you could try a little civility! I read your entire post but this sentence:

I am sure there are SOME COSTS like physical storage space in the racks of gift cards.

was not really clear. I work in CPG and "physical storage space" it not how one describes the payment for shelf space or floor space rental/purchase in a retail store. If that was your intent then you are correct and my apologies.
 
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xWhiplash

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
4,598
3,234
it not how one describes the payment for shelf space or floor space rental/purchase in a retail store
Shelf space = physical

So yes, physical costs does indeed describe what you said.

physical storage space in the racks of gift cards

How does that not mean shelf space or floor space rental/purchase?

And you did not quote my entire post, so there was no way for me to know if you read it all. I think its clear that physical costs === physical cost (rack/aisle/floor space is ALL physical space taken up)
 

visualseed

macrumors 6502
Dec 16, 2020
257
446
People like to throw out the credit card dispute like they can reverse charges on ANYTHING. I have been fighting to get a refund of my Dune Case because I ordered it in 2019, with a shipping date of January 2020 and I still have not received it. Credit Card dispute never goes through because "there is proof I have received the item I purchased". Please, don't blindly rely on credit card disputes. Its as it says, a dispute that could not end in your favor. I basically gave up after many attempts and am just out $250.
Likewise, I have never had an AppStore purchase dispute with Apple not end in my favor. Every single one ended up crediting my account back whatever money I had spent.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
24,384
30,985
California
Likewise, I have never had an AppStore purchase dispute with Apple not end in my favor. Every single one ended up crediting my account back whatever money I had spent.

Me too. I would say “no questions asked,” but one time they asked a simple question.
 

DoubleJ2119

macrumors member
Sep 21, 2017
42
40
Actually Epic does have an argument here. Physical stores can not add tax on gift cards, and they do not take a percentage of the cost. An iTunes gift card at Target for $50, I get $50 in my iTunes account. I am sure there are SOME COSTS like physical storage space in the racks of gift cards. But this is where digital and physical differs. It is theoretically infinite space to have these "gift cards" in digital format. Epic can make the argument the in app purchases for VBucks is equivalent to buying a gift card at a physical store.
In a physical store, the store gets a cut of the revenue from gift cards as does the third-party broker (Blackhawk, InComm, etc.)

So selling a gift card from a store is not “cut-free.”

However, you can redeem a VBucks card on Epic’s website and those VBucks will be available in the iOS app, completely circumventing Apple’s cut.

Further, there is sales tax on VBucks in states that charge sales tax on digital goods. Epic’s website: “Note to US players: V-Bucks purchased include sales tax, if applicable.”
 
Last edited:

jlc1978

macrumors 68040
Aug 14, 2009
3,496
1,913
You and the other person......did you not read my entire post?

Dis you read mine or the link the other poster posted?
There is most likely a cost for the physical storage of taking up space in the store. But the place does NOT take a cut on every single gift card sold.

Uh, yes they do as does the middleman. You just don't see the cut, the retailer pays it and gets less than the full amount of the card. The store may also get paid for space.

And yes, I have talked to managers before after someone tried to apply tax on a gift card, they explicitly stated there is NO markup per gift card. They didn't go into the storage space costs however, and like I said they for sure exists.

Tax and markup are two separate things. Tax is collected at the time of use to purchase a product, if do, not when teh gift card is sold. There may be no markup in his mind because the payment comes after sale in the form of a cut of sales, not as a product that is purchased by the company and then marked up in store.
 

Apleeseed84

macrumors 6502
Oct 22, 2020
271
156
Those seem like pretty standard fare, and the kind of stuff you can still find in the AppStore today. I think the only one I used myself was Flight Control, which I freaking loved. It disappeared because it was bought by EA and they left it to die. I can see how a policy change may have killed FileApp Pro, if Apple blocked memory access, but what about the AppStore drove the others out?

I dug around for information on the Aston Martin app, and that dashboard mode seemed novel at the time. I think there's a few apps out there now that have taken that idea and built on it. Sygic, has a nice interface, for example.

I think the rate of innovation in apps has slowed, mostly because there's so many available already and the underlying technologies have matured, but I don't think we're worse off.
I agree BUT with that said there was a lot of apps that stood out because of their features, now the problem really is finding “quality” apps, there’s a bigger selection of course but I do find “sponsored” apps on top of most of their lists Harder for me to choose something, a lot of my older apps eventually did get updated or merged all together but thinking about this post I just remember a time where I wanted all my apps on my phone now it’s like a select “few”

The only reason I miss FileApp was because I could delete my own “cached” storage the grey data that takes up the space on said device, I couldn’t tell you how many times I still have problems with it, Apple’s official answer is to factory reset after an icloud backup but even there used to be a time where it was Impossible to get pictures from the iphone, actually it still is, I have to download my pictures from the icloud website Because physically connecting to my PC never works But before we could download it straight from the idevices.

My Biggest pet peeve is the fact that an iphone or current iPad’s raw power is enough to rival video game consoles but now we are getting symbian “flash” quality games, They are very far and few in between games that stand out but with said everything is going “online” we will see. I used to look forward to AppStore releases back in the day, now it’s like ”meh”
 

bgillander

macrumors member
Jul 14, 2007
84
22
You and the other person......did you not read my entire post? There is most likely a cost for the physical storage of taking up space in the store. But the place does NOT take a cut on every single gift card sold. And yes, I have talked to managers before after someone tried to apply tax on a gift card, they explicitly stated there is NO markup per gift card. They didn't go into the storage space costs however, and like I said they for sure exists.
I think you are confusing sales tax with markup. Sales tax goes to the government and is added on at the time of sale. Where I live there is no sales tax on gift cards (nor should there be, as you are just buying a credit towards a future purchase that will be taxed at that time, so tax on the gift card would be a double dip for the government.) The markup on gift cards is built into the price, so the store charges you $20 for a $20 card, but they get a percentage of that already, as does the broker that supplies the stores with the cards. I cannot find the exact breakdown on the net, likely because they don’t want people to know, as it seems to cause complaints and lawsuits.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Core
Nov 14, 2011
22,792
28,878
If you buy the ingredients from target, yes target gets a cut.
If the manufacturer of the blender was selling a subscription for ingredients to make healthy shakes those ingredients wouldn’t be coming from Target. 🤷‍♀️
 

Analog Kid

macrumors 603
Mar 4, 2003
6,149
5,658
I agree BUT with that said there was a lot of apps that stood out because of their features, now the problem really is finding “quality” apps, there’s a bigger selection of course but I do find “sponsored” apps on top of most of their lists Harder for me to choose something, a lot of my older apps eventually did get updated or merged all together but thinking about this post I just remember a time where I wanted all my apps on my phone now it’s like a select “few”

The only reason I miss FileApp was because I could delete my own “cached” storage the grey data that takes up the space on said device, I couldn’t tell you how many times I still have problems with it, Apple’s official answer is to factory reset after an icloud backup but even there used to be a time where it was Impossible to get pictures from the iphone, actually it still is, I have to download my pictures from the icloud website Because physically connecting to my PC never works But before we could download it straight from the idevices.

My Biggest pet peeve is the fact that an iphone or current iPad’s raw power is enough to rival video game consoles but now we are getting symbian “flash” quality games, They are very far and few in between games that stand out but with said everything is going “online” we will see. I used to look forward to AppStore releases back in the day, now it’s like ”meh”

I agree with most of what you're saying (I'm not familiar with the grey data thing, but that seems besides the point). Since the AppStore has matured, it's harder to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I think this is just a side effect of the tools being easily accessible and the global reach of the AppStore. I'm not sure how to pare that back without making access to the store more exclusive and raising barriers to entry.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors 603
Mar 4, 2003
6,149
5,658
That’s not usually what they say when they’re defending IAP. They usually trot out privacy and security BS.
Which are also true. They're defending their store in the court of public opinion by extolling the public benefits. That seems sensible.
 

bgillander

macrumors member
Jul 14, 2007
84
22
I don’t think Apple should be taking a cut unless they’re directly responsible for the sale. I honestly can’t remember the last app I downloaded or purchased because of Apple marketing/promotion. I think assessing developers for the cost of maintaining the App Store, app downloads, software SDKs/tools, developer relations etc. is one thing. Rent seeking is completely different and Apple should get out of that business. Of course some will argue there are exceptions - especially around games - where Apple can say you wouldn’t exist without us and therefore if you’re successful we deserve some of it. But Apple getting a cut of Kindle book sales just because you read them on an iPad is ridiculous. Amazon should be able to allow people to buy a kindle book inside the app without having to pay Apple. Just let people use the same Amazon account that they do for physical goods or when they use Amazon’s website. Browsing for a book inside the app and then having to go outside the app to pay for it is just poor user experience.
Apple doesn’t get a cut of Kindle book sales if you read them on an iPad. They don’t even get a cut if you buy them on an iPad using Safari.

Similarly, I’m okay with using Safari to buy my Audible programs, as it beats not having an Audible app on iOS. Last time I checked, I couldn’t buy iTunes movies within the AppleTV app on my Amazon Fire Stick, only watch shows I already own, so the two companies seemed pretty consistent. I was happy they added the app at all.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Core
Nov 14, 2011
22,792
28,878
Apple doesn’t get a cut of Kindle book sales if you read them on an iPad. They don’t even get a cut if you buy them on an iPad using Safari.

Similarly, I’m okay with using Safari to buy my Audible programs, as it beats not having an Audible app on iOS. Last time I checked, I couldn’t buy iTunes movies within the AppleTV app on my Amazon Fire Stick, only watch shows I already own, so the two companies seemed pretty consistent. I was happy they added the app at all.
Right. What I’m saying is Amazon should be able to sell them in-app and not have to give Apple a cut of that transaction. What is the difference between buying a Kindle book via Amazon’s website in the browser and doing in-app other than convenience? So Apple’s saying if you want to provide a better user experience for your customers you have to give us 30%? That’s BS.

M.G. Siegler takes Apple to the woodshed over this press release. He says Apple should allow other payment options in-app and then compete for that business.

Marco Arment has talked about ways Apple needs to improve in the payment processing department. I agree that Apple should allow multiple payment options in-app (and I think they will be forced to eventually) but the 30% (or 15%) isn’t just about payment processing. I don’t think Apple would have any issue competing on that business. But the reason Apple isn’t going to offer multiple in-app payment options unless they’re forced is because it‘s not about payment processing. It’s about owning the customer. It’s about believing you’re responsible for developers success and thus need a cut of that success. Heck Eddy Cue has said Uber wouldn’t exist if not for iOS and the App Store. I guarantee you if Apple execs thought they could get away with taking a cut of Uber and Lyft sales they would in a heartbeat. The only reason companies like Amazon, Netflix and Spotify don‘t have to share their success with Apple is because they’re too big, too popular and Apple needs them.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
24,384
30,985
California
Right. What I’m saying is Amazon should be able to sell them in-app and not have to give Apple a cut of that transaction. What is the difference between buying a Kindle book via Amazon’s website in the browser and doing in-app other than convenience? So Apple’s saying if you want to provide a better user experience for your customers you have to give us 30%? That’s BS.

M.G. Siegler takes Apple to the woodshed over this press release. He says Apple should allow other payment options in-app and then compete for that business.

Marco Arment has talked about ways Apple needs to improve in the payment processing department. I agree that Apple should allow multiple payment options in-app (and I think they will be forced to eventually) but the 30% (or 15%) isn’t just about payment processing. I don’t think Apple would have any issue competing on that business. But the reason Apple isn’t going to offer multiple in-app payment options unless they’re forced is because it‘s not about payment processing. It’s about owning the customer. It’s about believing you’re responsible for developers success and thus need a cut of that success. Heck Eddy Cue has said Uber wouldn’t exist if not for iOS and the App Store. I guarantee you if Apple execs thought they could get away with taking a cut of Uber and Lyft sales they would in a heartbeat. The only reason companies like Amazon, Netflix and Spotify don‘t have to share their success with Apple is because they’re too big, too popular and Apple needs them.

Uber wouldn’t exist if not for iPhone, for what it’s worth.
 
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Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
15,254
14,573
Singapore
The only reason companies like Amazon, Netflix and Spotify don‘t have to share their success with Apple is because they’re too big, too popular and Apple needs them.

I thought the reason for that is that Netflix and Spotify have had success in getting consumers to subscribe directly via their website instead, so they don’t have to pay Apple their cut.

I am still paying for my Netflix subscription via iTunes, so Apple is still getting 15% of that every month presumably.
 

passatgt

macrumors 6502a
Jun 16, 2011
517
394
I thought the reason for that is that Netflix and Spotify have had success in getting consumers to subscribe directly via their website instead, so they don’t have to pay Apple their cut.

I am still paying for my Netflix subscription via iTunes, so Apple is still getting 15% of that every month presumably.
 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
15,254
14,573
Singapore
Thanks. I wasn't aware there were even repercussions to be had for doing so. I am subscribed to a number of streaming services which don't let you subscribe directly within the app itself, namely curiosity stream and nebula, so I always assumed this was up to the individual businesses themselves.
 

jzuena

macrumors 65816
Feb 21, 2007
1,099
131
Our company is filing an Objection to this settlement. $100 million, to settle 30% supra-competitive rents on $300 billion in developer payments? How is this math even plausible. The law firm here is getting $30m. Who paid them, and why do they get such a substantial amount on such a puny settlement. Also the settlement proposed is vague in many respects to related litigation. Look for our press release on the objection. Mark my words this settlement is dead in the water.
Wait, are you saying the law firm is getting 30%? Where did they get this ridiculous number from? It shouldn’t be more than 15%. That law firm should allow alternate payment methods so I can benefit from their work and cut out their payment. /s
 
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