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Mac Mini - grow up!

Listen, there are laptops with more balls than this thing. Don't get me wrong because I love the Mini, mostly because it's potential. Mac needs to address the issue of self cannibalizing and really define and distinguish it's products (looks like it's in the works) e.g. Mac Pros Vs iMacs, Mini Vs. A Tv, ect. There is a market to allow for a quad core Mac Mini with HDMI + more. Dell and Gateway have no problem with a small and mighty form factor pc for around 500 bucks. So please, a Mac Mini for the people who don't already have a monitor, don't want a laptop, can't dig deep for a M. Pro & for those who would like more than a pathetic 2.66 duo on a non-mobile platform. I believe in a mighty Mac Mini.
 
One quick question just to make sure I have things correct. Displayport has more bandwidth dedicated to video than HDMI 1.3 however HDMI 1.3 has more bandwidth dedicated to audio?

DisplayPort 1.1a has worse audio than HDMI, but DP 1.2 can carry the same codecs.

That I don't know... HDMI 1.3 can support 2560x1600p75/60 and HDMI 1.4 can do 4096x2160p24

DisplayPort only says 1920x1080p60

I don't know where you got those numbers... Old DisplayPort can go up to 2560 x 1600 at 60Hz, but DisplayPort 1.2 can carry 3840 x 2400 at 60Hz, 2560 x 1600 at 120 Hz for 3D (60 Hz for each eye), of four simultaneous streams to 1920x1080 60Hz.
 
Wow.. you figured out I didn't know ALL about Display Port lol.... who cares but thanks for the correction.. we all make mistakes now and then lol.

We all will need to say "I was wrong" from time to time,
and learn as we post.

Thanks for the discussion here... Some of the things that I've
read about HDMI and TOSlink/Digital needed to be updated. If we
can't say that "I was wrong", we'll never learn.

When I'm in a technical discussion with someone, the most powerful
thing that they can say is "I don't know".

I don't trust the people who never say "I don't know".
 
This is a reply to aiden shaw, I really need to hit the quote button here, for some reason it slips my mind on this forum but not others OOPS lol.

Yeah I have said it plenty of times ask those I know lol rather those who know me lol.

Sometimes "pride" or hubris sort of gets in the way and one doesn't like to admit ones mistakes but I guess in my case I assumed cause my receiver said LPCM multi it was able to carry it via optical or perhaps optical can carry PCM audio just not the 24/32 bit 48/96 kHz ones that HDMI can support though I don't think any blu-rays use 32 bit 96khz that's more or less music studios may record that high or the master audio for movies but the encode in blu-rays might not use that that may re-record it for 24/48.

Sorry if I sounded like an ****** wasn't my intent but it happens due to the types I grew up around... racist angry hate filled family of mine OOPS lol.

So apparently it isn't as strong or TOSlink fiber optic lines aren't but there were other fiber optic connections used but apparently very briefly that have a 40-60Gbps bandwidth which totally trounces HDMI's 10.2 lol.

My sound board uses something different than the TOSlink, that cable cost me friggin 300 dollars for a cheap one O_O and it's rated at like 48.756Gbps some weird number I just round and say 50 or plain 48 sometimes when talking to people if that was used more on A/V equipment that could carry probably 20 8 channel uncompressed LPCM signals at once lol. Maybe that's a bit exaggerated but it would definitely handle LPCM uncompressed audio for a while....
 
I'm a mac user but I just got me an inexpensive $450 pc laptop with HDMI and I connect it to the LCD TV and its my media player. Works great.
Its a shame apple doesn't have ports that even the cheapest pcs have.
 
Maybe they're finally adding Blu-Ray super drives. I'm not holding my breath though.
 
Man, there's some profound stupidity in this thread. And I certainly don't mean to offend anybody by saying that — well, except the profoundly stupid people, but they can't follow what I'm saying anyway, so it's all good.

The biggest stupidity I've seen by far are the people who seem to think that if you had an HDMI port on your Mac, you could plug in a Playstation and play Playstation games on it … or something? It wasn't entirely clear. Are those guys serious?

Anyway. A computer display and a television are different things. They might look similar on the outside, but on the inside they're very different. Is this how it should be? I don't know, that's a different argument. But it's how it is, because of radical (and entirely historical) differences in signaling standards.

HDMI was designed for use with televisions. Recently it's been tweaked to make it suitable for home cinema. Whether it will be successful there remains to be seen, because that market's so new.

DisplayPort was designed for use with computer displays. Right now, DVI is still the universal standard there; HDMI is not, nor does anybody think it should be. DisplayPort is intended to address many of the shortcomings of DVI, but it's still new. As anybody who remembers the VGA-to-DVI transition knows, these things take time.

Whoever it was who said that it'd be great if we could replace all of these cable and signaling standards with a single unified standard — I think it was more than one person, up-thread — was absolutely right. It would be great. The problem is, we've tried many times and have never succeeded. The "U" in "USB" stands for "Universal." It was supposed to replace all low-speed serial interconnects. Later it was tweaked (like HDMI is being tweaked) to replace high-speed serial interfaces as well. But it had some fundamental flaws (it wasn't good for isochronous transport, which meant video cameras stuck with Firewire) and it hasn't kept up, so now we have things like Firewire 800 and eSATA for storage, and Firewire is still the dominant interconnect for DV, DVCPRO and HDV video cameras. The universal interconnect wasn't.

As we transition away from analog signaling to packetized digital signaling everywhere (as with DisplayPort to name one example), the potential that we might replace all our cables with a new universal plug becomes more real. The problem with that is that interconnects need to be inexpensive, which means they need to start out as slow as they can be. Later, they need to get faster as economies of scale kick in. A serial interconnect struggles there, because you reach a point where radio-frequency interference is an issue. DisplayPort addresses this with software, and it seems to be a good fix, but we won't really know until the installed base is large enough to draw generalizations.

As mentioned above, Light Peak is promising indeed, except for one huge problem: No electrons. Optical signaling can carry just about any type of information you could imagine, but it cannot carry power. Period. You have to move electrons in order to transmit power, and electrons don't flow through glass. Well, at least not in a useful way.

So what's the answer? A hybrid cable that's got nano-scale reflectors lining an optical fibre, alongside a pair of copper conductors to carry some arbitrarily high amount of current and voltage to satisfy all imagined future power requirements? Great idea, but for it to truly be universal it'd have to be massively overbuilt, which would make it even more expensive than small-radius optical cables would already have to be.

We are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, though. Twenty years ago, people talked about "peripherals." You had a home computer (which was identical in every respect to a work computer, and for that matter was basically identical to a workstation, because a computer was a thing and we made them to be generic instead of application-specific), and then you had "peripherals," things like printers and stuff. Your speakers were a peripheral, because computers didn't have them built in yet. Companies pitched the idea of giving away personal bar-code scanners, which were computer peripherals, in order to sell advertising through them. (This was before the URL was a popular thing, and long before Google obsoleted the URL.) You could go to a store and see row upon row of "peripherals" that were designed to plug into your computer and do specific things, and many of them had their own plugs and sockets.

That nightmare began to fade away because of two things: first, plugs-and-sockets standards began to congeal into these vague lumps —*VME, PCI, VGA, DB9, DB25, whatever. And second, more and more the world sort of collectively realized that nobody gives a **** about handheld scanning devices. So the sheer volume of interconnects went down, while at the same time the sheer number of useless things companies were selling to plug into your new-fangled "computer" plummeted.

Then wireless came along, and things got a bit simpler still, because for many applications were were able to just let go of the notion of plugging in entirely. We're going to continue to see more things transition from wired to wireless, once we figure out how to deal gracefully with unreliable connections.

But connecting a computer to a display still takes a cable, and might always. Shipping that many gigabits per second through the air pushes the limits of what physics allows, and while it might be possible, it's certainly not going to be easy. There's also the question of whether it'd be worth it to try. Instead, it makes sense to come up with an interconnect that's fast enough today but scalable for the future, that can be daisy-chained to drive multiple displays, that has built-in support for optical signaling for long and relatively inexpensive cable runs, and that's easy enough to implement that we don't have to sink eighty bucks into each chip we use.

That's basically what DisplayPort is. At least, that's what it's intended to be. Whether it'll succeed is, again, yet to be revealed. But DisplayPort and HDMI have different goals, and they serve different needs, and frankly if you can read this whole long ramble and still not get that, then I'm just not sure what else I can tell you.
 
... But DisplayPort and HDMI have different goals, and they serve different needs, and frankly if you can read this whole long ramble and still not get that, then I'm just not sure what else I can tell you.

Long ramble it is, all right.

But it contains virtually no real information.

I gave up long ago on the Mac Mini for a HTPC and replaced it with an AOPEN MP45 box. Well built, easier to get into than the Mini, more powerful processors and cheaper.... With better front-end options on the Windows side.

BTW, here is the new, NVIDIA ION version of the AOPEN, with BluRay option:

http://www.slashgear.com/aopen-xc-m...chews-atom-for-core-2-duo-nvidia-ion-2063939/

Apple has never been a plausible player in the HTPC market.
 
Apple has never been a plausible player in the HTPC market.

I think you'll find that that's because there is no such thing as an "HTPC market." The number of people who even know what "HTPC" stands for — I had to google it myself — is so tiny it rounds down to zero.

If you wanted to say, for instance, that Apple doesn't have a strong play in the corporate desktop computer market, that'd be just fine. Because there is such a market, and indeed, Apple (by choice or otherwise) does not service it.
 
...

That's basically what DisplayPort is. At least, that's what it's intended to be. Whether it'll succeed is, again, yet to be revealed. But DisplayPort and HDMI have different goals, and they serve different needs, and frankly if you can read this whole long ramble and still not get that, then I'm just not sure what else I can tell you.

I know you didn't say anything about this directly, but many folks like myself don't want HDMI to replace the DisplayPort, but on the Mini it sure would be nice for many people. and actually it would be nice on Mac Pro's as well for testing purposes of many professionals.

I agree that DisplayPort and HDMI have different goals in mind, and I hope they both service those goals well. But I for one would certainly like to see both options available (especially on the mac mini), not necessarily as replacements of each other but to compliment each other. Many mac folks tend to be Media geeks also, so this would certainly cater to them by providing that extra option.
 
I know you didn't say anything about this directly, but many folks like myself don't want HDMI to replace the DisplayPort, but on the Mini it sure would be nice for many people.

Now that I can buy. It's undeniable that there are individuals out there who, for whatever reason, want to plug their Macs into their televisions. This is all well and good, and nobody should actively go out of their way to stop them.

But three things. First of all, I don't have any research on this, but I think it's safe to assume that the number of people who care about this is very small. Small both in the relative sense (as a fraction of Apple's current customers) and also small in the absolute sense. Plugging a desktop computer into a television is just not something most people do. Some, sure, but not most.

Second, the Mac has to support HDCP for that to be a viable thing to do. I know that iTunes does HDCP for movie purchases and rentals, and I know the Apple TV does as well. I don't know if a Mac can output an HDCP-protected signal over any display port, be it DVI or DisplayPort. If it doesn't, then that's a feature Apple would have to add, and now we're into a discussion about opportunity costs. Given limited engineering resources and a looooong list of things Apple wants to do, it's not unreasonable that they should choose to invest in those things that will benefit the most people, and by extension that will most greatly affect their bottom line.

Finally, anybody who does want to plug a Mac into a television right now is welcome to do so via the various adapters that are available. Building in a feature that is totally duplicated by a plug adapter would increase the complexity and cost of the Mac mini, and would just generally be a waste of time.

and actually it would be nice on Mac Pro's as well for testing purposes of many professionals.

Now this I have a harder time accepting. People who work in television would have no interest in plugging a TV into their Mac as if it were a computer monitor. Those guys use I/O boards from Blackmagic and Aja, some of which have HDMI on them but the majority of which use SDI for both input and output.

Having a Mac with built-in video input and output would be awesome for TV professionals, obviously. But it would also be totally pointless for the other 99.8% of Apple customers.
 
agree

This is the one of te best news I heard.
I love mac mini due to easy upgradability.

i agree i have a mac mini had it for about 2 years now
and i have bumped the mem up and fixing to replace the
dvd drive with the mac dvd burner
and other then that it has ben a fantastic little mac
and the hdmi and 1 more usb will be a big plus
when i finley replace this one
even my samsung 22" has hdmi
 
HDMI was designed for use with televisions. Recently it's been tweaked to make it suitable for home cinema. Whether it will be successful there remains to be seen, because that market's so new.

DisplayPort was designed for use with computer displays. Right now, DVI is still the universal standard there; HDMI is not, nor does anybody think it should be. DisplayPort is intended to address many of the shortcomings of DVI, but it's still new. As anybody who remembers the VGA-to-DVI transition knows, these things take time.

Where have you been the last several years?

HDMI is everywhere in TV and home theater equipment.

HDMI has also been in computer displays, PC desktops, and PC notebooks as standard features for years now too.

HDMI is everywhere.

DisplayPort is not. Despite the fact that DisplayPort is now 4 years old and HDMI 1.3 is almost 4 years old, HDMI 1.3 is everywhere and DisplayPort is not. So far, DisplayPort has been an inconvenience more than anything else.
 
Where have you been the last several years?

HDMI is everywhere in TV and home theater equipment.

HDMI has also been in computer displays, PC desktops, and PC notebooks as standard features for years now too.

HDMI is everywhere.

DisplayPort is not. Despite the fact that DisplayPort is now 4 years old and HDMI 1.3 is almost 4 years old, HDMI 1.3 is everywhere and DisplayPort is not. So far, DisplayPort has been an inconvenience more than anything else.


DisplayPort is in most of the high end computer monitors... as well as many laptops. It's a COMPUTER video standard. Designed for use with computers.

HDMI is intended for use with TVs. Most people don't go around plugging their laptops into their TV. Yes, it'd be nice for a MacMini or something which would could use the TV as a monitor (and be used as a home theater device). However, I'll stick to plugging my laptop into a display with 1920x1200 resolution. (which is higher than my 1080p display)

High-end Dell monitors have featured both HDMI and DisplayPort inputs for a while now.

Benefits of DisplayPort: It's royalty-free (so companies don't have to pay licensing fees to use it). MiniDisplayPort is smaller than an HDMI port, so it saves space on laptops. (show me where you could put an HDMI port on a MacBook Pro... it's just not possible with the way the current design is.) Oh, and DisplayPort v1.2 supports daisy-chaining as well as higher resolutions than HDMI v1.4.

I would much rather have a DisplayPort 1.2 connector (with audio) in the future MacBooks with an HDMI adapter sold separately.

On the MacMini and iMac... I think they should go ahead and put HDMI ports. I mean, what's the use of DVI when they already have the DisplayPort (and the DVI adapter).
 
DisplayPort is in most of the high end computer monitors... as well as many laptops. It's a COMPUTER video standard. Designed for use with computers.

DisplayPort is in very few computer monitors and even fewer laptops.

Only extremely low-end monitors don't have HDMI, and only Macs and notebooks don't have HDMI.

HDMI is intended for use with TVs.

HDMI can handle higher resolutions than DisplayPort.

Most people don't go around plugging their laptops into their TV.

It's funny you say that because I have my MacBook hooked up to my monitor right now using a mini DisplayPort to HDMI adapter.

But I see people connecting notebooks to all kinds of external display devices. Those external devices are projectors, monitors, or HDTVs. Out of all the devices I see people use, guess which one has VGA and guess which ones use HDMI?

However, I'll stick to plugging my laptop into a display with 1920x1200 resolution. (which is higher than my 1080p display)

I'll take my 23.5" LG display at 1920x1080 because I like proper aspect ratios. And judging by how fast the entire industry, except Apple, adopted 16x9, its safe to say that everyone else prefers 16x9 as well ;)

High-end Dell monitors have featured both HDMI and DisplayPort inputs for a while now.

Dell and Apple are basically the only two manufacturers that even care about DisplayPort. However, HDMI is still more prominent than DisplayPort in their products.

Benefits of DisplayPort: It's royalty-free (so companies don't have to pay licensing fees to use it).

Because that $10,000 mass licensing fee and 4c per device fee would really cut into Apple's 50% profits.

MiniDisplayPort is smaller than an HDMI port, so it saves space on laptops. (show me where you could put an HDMI port on a MacBook Pro... it's just not possible with the way the current design is.)

Oh yeah? http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10242&cs_id=1024201&p_id=3645&seq=1&format=2 HDMI Type C is part of the HDMI 1.3 spec. A little bit wider than mini DisplayPort, but not nearly as high. http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/36453.jpg

Oh, and DisplayPort v1.2 supports daisy-chaining as well as higher resolutions than HDMI v1.4.

OS X doesn't have good multi-display support anyway, so daisy chaining is irrelevant. I know this from experience.

Higher resolution than HDMI 1.4? Think again buddy. DisplayPort supports up to 3840x2160, HDMI 1.4 supports 4096x2160. ;) HDMI 1.4 supports an additional 552,960 pixels.

And as I stated in an earlier post, HDMI supports over 30Mbps more bandwidth for audio than DisplayPort.

I would much rather have a DisplayPort 1.2 connector (with audio) in the future MacBooks with an HDMI adapter sold separately.

Good for you. The rest of us are tired of Apple forcing standards nobody uses while trying to sell us expensive adapters. Its ridiculous that I have to pay extra money on top of my already overpriced Mac just to be able to use it with an external display.
 
I'm surprised there's so many people that claim that 'who wants to plug their laptop into a television?'.
I do, I know many people that do - when you move a laptop/mini/etc around, don't you ever want to put video/audio onto a tv/amp without having to carry round a bag full of cables and connectors? Even then, there's still no way of getting HD video and audio out of an apple branded machine - the alternative is a 4c price hike(?), guaranteed single cable connection on any modern AV equipment and HD video/audio...

I'm normally a huge fan of future proofing devices. Again, apple have done what I see as the opposite - Ignoring spec/bandwidth/etc arguments, hdmi has been around for ages, is 'standard' on all av equipment, is 'common' on pc displays and is capable of sending a full res digital av signal to pretty much every display/receiver about - it is super convenient.

To that guy talking about display port being marketed for computer displays, and hdmi for tvs - there's a huge amount of difference nowadays? Isn't a tv just a pc monitor, with a tv tuner, tweaked black levels that comes with a remote control?
 
wow, theres a lot of uber geek pedantic threads over specs.

heres what it means to someone like me simply. I have a laptop with an hdmi port next to me ova' here. I got my lcd tv ova' there. I got this $9 hdmi cable I plug them together with. I now got me a nice moving picture....with sound too!! :p

and don't know what all the hand wringing is over tv vs computer monitors....my desktop looks the same on the tv exactly the same and as it does on the laptop screen.
 
heres what it means to someone like me simply. I have a laptop with an hdmi port next to me ova' here. I got my lcd tv ova' there. I got this $9 hdmi cable I plug them together with. I now got me a nice moving picture....with sound too!! :p

I like your post. People can geek out of HDMI was meant for XX purpose but Display Port is for YY purpose for days on end, but all that matters is that the customer is able to enjoy his/her laptop how they want. You just want to plug your laptop into your tv with one cable, and thats a perfectly reasonable request. I'm sure you dont give a flying crap what the connector is called or who designed it or what shape it is, you just want to connect everything with one cable and be done, right?
I dont get why this is so hard for some people in this thread to understand.
 
OS X doesn't have good multi-display support anyway, so daisy chaining is irrelevant. I know this from experience.

Higher resolution than HDMI 1.4? Think again buddy. DisplayPort supports up to 3840x2160, HDMI 1.4 supports 4096x2160. ;) HDMI 1.4 supports an additional 552,960 pixels.

And as I stated in an earlier post, HDMI supports over 30Mbps more bandwidth for audio than DisplayPort.

Funny, haven't heard too many complaints about multi-display support with OSX. Please enlighten me.

HDMI 3840 x 2160 30p vs Displayports 3840 x 2160 x 60p. Twice the bandwidth, just like Displayport 1.2 has more overall bandwidth than HDMI 1.4. The fact that there isn't support for the 4096 x 2160 doesn't mean that Displayport isn't capable of it.

As per audio, Displayport 1.2 supports all of the BD standards. If Displayport is missing something that you need, it isn't because Displayport isn't capable of supporting it. Displayport packet based architecture is capable of supporting anything that HDMI can, and then some.

But really, let's get to the bottom line.

Anybody with a mac mini isn't going to be running a 4096 x 2160 display. It isn't possible. So, no, I don't have a problem of offing the DVI connector for an HDMI, but I do have a problem replacing what I and Apple consider a superior technology, Displayport, with HDMI.
 
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