Apple Proposes Standard for Smaller SIM Cards to Make Even Thinner iPhones

[Daveoc64]

They also rely on locking in their customers to their own services which is precisely why people are nervous about soft SIMs. If Apple got to choose the list of compatible carriers with their phone then they could potentially block carriers they have no agreement with.

Exactly.

My unlocked phone supports SIMs from carriers that Apple doesn't allow to sell the iPhone.

What about buying a SIM abroad? Will we be allowed to sign up to service from a carrier in a different country? If you have to use iTunes that will be incredibly difficult.

 

[Daveoc64]

7) Lastly, buying a phone used to be a horrendous experience that took an hour in-store to go through the activation process. Apple required carriers change that, and Apple simplified it immensely.

Apple HAS NOT simplified activation.

They are the ONLY phone manufacturer that requires you to activate your device (yes, the one that you've purchased) with them (through the wonderful iTunes software ) before you can use it to do anything other than emergency calls.

If Apple's servers don't work or close entirely, then you can't use your device.

There's currently a problem with activating the original iPhone in the US. It's not been possible since last Friday to activate such a device. (See this thread for more details)

If Apple didn't play into the hands of AT&T and require such tight control of the device, issues like that simply would not exist.

 

[erzhik]

Such as...?


I don't believe they do pander to carriers. I want to refresh your memory about a few things about the US networks before Apple entered the phone market:
1) Ringtones needed to be purchased in order to be put on the phone, predominantly sold by the carrier at ridiculous prices.
2) Games, video, and music were also sold via the carrier, with terrible quality and high pricing.
3) It was common practice in the US for carriers to force phone manufacturers to disable Bluetooth and other features on phones, to prevent users putting on music or other media from sources outside their own stores.
4) Networks were not suitable for modern Internet use. But the iPhone literally forced carriers to rush to make multi-billion dollar upgrades to the networks to accommodate.
5) Verizon and AT&T used to actively block any phone using their service that wasn't licensed through them. Apple, and in turn Android, made them open their networks to all phones that were compatible with the network.
6) Visual Voicemail didn't exist. AT&T spent millions creating the system for Apple.
7) Lastly, buying a phone used to be a horrendous experience that took an hour in-store to go through the activation process. Apple required carriers change that, and Apple simplified it immensely.

1. Ringtones never had to be purchased. Nokia put tons of ringtones on their phones for free (iPhone still has less factory ringtones than a Nokia phone from 1998).
2. Again, Nokia had offered plenty of games to their customers.
3. Don't know the history of bluetooth, you might be right here.
4. iPhone didn't force anything. Times changing, the need for faster mobile internet grew higher.
5. AT&T never done that, nor did any other SIM company. That is the beauty of SIM phones, get any SIM with a phone that supports SIM cards.
6. Don't know anything about visual voicemail.
7. They didn't simplify anything. If anything, they made the process even worse. How many people here actually like activating their phone in iTunes?
All other SIM phones I've seen don't even need activation. Pop the SIM in, create the account and go. No phone activation required. Changed phones? Put in the old sim into a new phone and go. No iTunes crap required.

 

[MattInOz]

The past isn't much use to anyone now.

Well those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it....
with their LTE networks from all the noise.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Time to go threw you list and show you what you have big time wrong.

I don't believe they do pander to carriers. I want to refresh your memory about a few things about the US networks before Apple entered the phone market:
1) Ringtones needed to be purchased in order to be put on the phone, predominantly sold by the carrier at ridiculous prices.

2) Games, video, and music were also sold via the carrier, with terrible quality and high pricing.

3) It was common practice in the US for carriers to force phone manufacturers to disable Bluetooth and other features on phones, to prevent users putting on music or other media from sources outside their own stores.

4) Networks were not suitable for modern Internet use. But the iPhone literally forced carriers to rush to make multi-billion dollar upgrades to the networks to accommodate.

5) Verizon and AT&T used to actively block any phone using their service that wasn't licensed through them. Apple, and in turn Android, made them open their networks to all phones that were compatible with the network.

6) Visual Voicemail didn't exist. AT&T spent millions creating the system for Apple.

7) Lastly, buying a phone used to be a horrendous experience that took an hour in-store to go through the activation process. Apple required carriers change that, and Apple simplified it immensely.

1) False. BIG TIME FALSE. I was doing it for free on my own easily back in 2005 and I know before that and that was just on a dumb phone. All it took was mp3 file cut to the correct size and loaded on the phone. BOOM Done. iPhone made it harder as they more forced you to buy a ring tone until people figured out away around it. You should see the complaints on these boards at first. APPLE MADE IT HARDER NOT EASIER

2. False again. Limit to smart phone they been putting games and apps on them for free for years. Biggest limitation was processing power. Again 2005 I load some of my dumb phone for free. Basic simple games that was nice to play to kill time.

3. False YET AGAIN That restriction was released before the iPhone and AT&T NEVER and I repeat NEVER had it. Hell iPhone lags in the blutooth file transfers any how. So again Apple is behind the curve.

4. False again mobile internet was taking off around that time. iPhone was a quick demand for AT&T but if you looked at the other carrier you would of seen their demand for internet growing at a very fast pace as well with similar curves. Not iPhone related.

5. FALSE again AT&T never blocked phone that was not licensed by them. Any unlock GSM phone would work great on their network. Just pop in your sim and go. Verizon and Sprint I will give you that one but that was part of the CDMA restrictions than anything else.

6. Not all carriers yet offer VVM that have the iPhone. Will say Apple pushed it but now almost all phones can do it. I use google voice for my VVM and I find that a hell of a lot better than what Apple offers.

7. FALSE AGAIN on GSM activation for everything but the iPhone was take out your old sim pop it in the new phone and BOOM you were done. Still that way for everything but the iPhone. iPhone activation is a bigger pain in the ass and every time a new one comes out just look at the activation hell all because Apple will not let the easy swap sim and be done with it. APPLE MADE IT WORSE NOT BETTER.

So of that list you have 5 that are complete false. 1 that is 1/2 false and one I will sort-of give you.
On top of that Apple made several of the items you claim to be better a hell of a lot worse and MUCH MUCH more annoying.

 

[KingCrimson]

In other news, Apple is breaking all records for cell phone profits each and every quarter. Next...

 

[EssentialParado]

Exactly.

My unlocked phone supports SIMs from carriers that Apple doesn't allow to sell the iPhone.

Dave, all UK networks carry the iPhone. What carriers are you referring to here?

Also, I asked you to give examples of how Apple bow down to the carriers. I've given many more in the contrary to that.

Time to go threw you list and show you what you have big time wrong.



1) False. BIG TIME FALSE. I was doing it for free on my own easily back in 2005 and I know before that and that was just on a dumb phone. All it took was mp3 file cut to the correct size and loaded on the phone. BOOM Done. iPhone made it harder as they more forced you to buy a ring tone until people figured out away around it. You should see the complaints on these boards at first. APPLE MADE IT HARDER NOT EASIER

2. False again. Limit to smart phone they been putting games and apps on them for free for years. Biggest limitation was processing power. Again 2005 I load some of my dumb phone for free. Basic simple games that was nice to play to kill time.

3. False YET AGAIN That restriction was released before the iPhone and AT&T NEVER and I repeat NEVER had it. Hell iPhone lags in the blutooth file transfers any how. So again Apple is behind the curve.

4. False again mobile internet was taking off around that time. iPhone was a quick demand for AT&T but if you looked at the other carrier you would of seen their demand for internet growing at a very fast pace as well with similar curves. Not iPhone related.

5. FALSE again AT&T never blocked phone that was not licensed by them. Any unlock GSM phone would work great on their network. Just pop in your sim and go. Verizon and Sprint I will give you that one but that was part of the CDMA restrictions than anything else.

6. Not all carriers yet offer VVM that have the iPhone. Will say Apple pushed it but now almost all phones can do it. I use google voice for my VVM and I find that a hell of a lot better than what Apple offers.

7. FALSE AGAIN on GSM activation for everything but the iPhone was take out your old sim pop it in the new phone and BOOM you were done. Still that way for everything but the iPhone. iPhone activation is a bigger pain in the ass and every time a new one comes out just look at the activation hell all because Apple will not let the easy swap sim and be done with it. APPLE MADE IT WORSE NOT BETTER.

So of that list you have 5 that are complete false. 1 that is 1/2 false and one I will sort-of give you.
On top of that Apple made several of the items you claim to be better a hell of a lot worse and MUCH MUCH more annoying.

It's not "threw", it's "through"... And your points, however much truth they have in them, are completely irrelevant to the discussion. I was pointing out how Apple have not pandered to the carriers. There have been several articles written (two of such appearing in Wired magazine; Feb 2008, Jun 2009) about how Apple have affected carriers by taking power away from them and putting it back into the hands of the phone manufacturers.

I simply don't buy the argument that Apple bow down to the carriers because the evidence shows very much the reverse is true. There was an article as recent as February showing AT&T complaining that Apple won't allow them to preload a bunch of apps onto the iPhone, or to sell via an AT&T branded App Store. AT&T could easily offer money to Apple for these, but why does Apple decline? The only logical summation is because they want to give the best experience for the consumers. —This is Apple's entire business model.

 

[Nermal]

Dave, all UK networks carry the iPhone. What carriers are you referring to here?

Dave didn't specify UK operators, so an example is Telecom NZ (which is not on Apple's supported operator list). You can buy an unlocked iPhone from Apple here, and then use it on Telecom. You need to manually enter the APN settings, but it works.

If future iPhones had some sort of "operator selection menu" then it'd probably be limited to "Apple-sanctioned" operators.

 

[intelliot]

It'll be interesting if they come up with a way to cut our micro-SIMs to be compatible with the new standard.

I've personally cut almost 10 SIMs so that they fit in iPhone 4 or iPad. Makes me wonder why mini-SIM exists in the first place, considering that the micro-SIM part is all that matters; the rest is just excess plastic.

 

[Daveoc64]

Dave, all UK networks carry the iPhone. What carriers are you referring to here?

There are many more MVNOs that don't have the iPhone than networks that do.

As noted above, I was also referring to non-UK networks

Also, I asked you to give examples of how Apple bow down to the carriers. I've given many more in the contrary to that.

A few examples:

-Requiring activation of the device to prevent people using it without a "valid" SIM
-20MB download limit over the cellular network
-Facetime over Wi-Fi only
-Restricting what can go on the App Store (e.g. you can't have an App that uses more than 5MB of data per minute over the cellular network on the App Store)
-Tethering feature that must be enabled by carriers
-Crippling Game Center so that it doesn't compete with SMS

I haven't seen you give one example that actually benefits users on a day to day basis

 

[vvswarup]

Do you people seriously believe that Apple bows down to carriers? I've heard many crazy allegations about Apple but at least someone can give the illusion of having viable arguments to back them up. This one just takes the cake. It's plain false.

Apple does not pander to carriers. It's the other way around.

1) Go to an electronics store, e.g. Best Buy and check out their mobile phones. Pay attention to the front. On every phone, you will see the carrier's logo prominently stamped onto the front. Now look at the your iPhone. Look at every corner of it. You won't find a trace of ANYone's branding but Apple's.

2) If Apple pandered to carriers, the iPhone would have been on every carrier from day one, just like Android. The very reason as to why Apple signed an exclusivity agreement with AT&T was to retain complete control of the platform. AT&T was the only carrier that agreed to those terms. Verizon agreed to those terms too when the iPhone debuted on their networked. For example, Verizon has its own content, called VCast, which includes apps, music and other content. On Android phones, VCast is preinstalled. For the iPhone, Verizon is developing a VCast version for the App Store.

3) Rumor has it that AT&T wanted concessions from Apple but Apple flatly refused. For example, when it became apparent that AT&T's network couldn't keep up with the iPhone, one of the things AT&T asked Apple to do was restrict YouTube to Wi-Fi. AT&T asked Apple's executives to wear suits to a meeting. Apple refused to budge on even that.

 

[Gzilirion]

+

 

[Rodimus Prime]

It's not "threw", it's "through"... And your points, however much truth they have in them, are completely irrelevant to the discussion. I was pointing out how Apple have not pandered to the carriers. There have been several articles written (two of such appearing in Wired magazine; Feb 2008, Jun 2009) about how Apple have affected carriers by taking power away from them and putting it back into the hands of the phone manufacturers.

I simply don't buy the argument that Apple bow down to the carriers because the evidence shows very much the reverse is true. There was an article as recent as February showing AT&T complaining that Apple won't allow them to preload a bunch of apps onto the iPhone, or to sell via an AT&T branded App Store. AT&T could easily offer money to Apple for these, but why does Apple decline? The only logical summation is because they want to give the best experience for the consumers. —This is Apple's entire business model.

You just do not like the fact that I completed killed all your arguments and added to it that in some of your so called arguments Apple made it WORSE not better.

As for other App stores guess what they may of not been run by the manufactures but they were already out there. I knew of a few Windows mobile ones and a few blackberry ones that were around.

Followed by what I quoted below that also kills even more of your arguments. You posted what some people like to believe. We posted facts that killed those reasons.

There are many more MVNOs that don't have the iPhone than networks that do.

As noted above, I was also referring to non-UK networks


A few examples:

-Requiring activation of the device to prevent people using it without a "valid" SIM
-20MB download limit over the cellular network
-Facetime over Wi-Fi only
-Restricting what can go on the App Store (e.g. you can't have an App that uses more than 5MB of data per minute over the cellular network on the App Store)
-Tethering feature that must be enabled by carriers
-Crippling Game Center so that it doesn't compete with SMS

I haven't seen you give one example that actually benefits users on a day to do basis

 

[maclaptop]

The iPhone is too thin and small as it is. Apple needs to learn that small doesn't always mean better. Apple is falling behind so fast in the smartphone arena and they are going to have trouble catching up pretty soon if they don't get on the ball. It is like Mac vs. Windows all over again.

It's just another way for Apple to keep tightening control.

Just my 2 cents on the never-ending argument over sim cards/embedded sim cards. It's BS.

Americans, read my lips: Europeans have been freed from these chains long, long ago BECAUSE of the sim card standard.

America: the phone plan, carrier and phone itself are one entity in itself.

Europe: your phone is yours and you are allowed to pick your carrier and phone plan you desire.

Thanks to these users, the voice of reason, experience, intelligence and common sense prevails.

Here are three users that truly "get it".

I agree completely,

Cheers

 

[caspersoong]

This will cause frustration at developing countries, that's for sure.

 

[H2SO4]

Piss off Apple! Leave the bloody SIM cards alone, it's not yet another standard you need to change and force everyone else to change to. The industry has been more then happy with the current design for several years before and since you entered the mobile phone business...

Buy another phone then Seriously, what on earth are you talking about, Apple are one tiny company in the choice of mobile phones available on the market so they are a powerful minority that people are choosing to go with. Here's a thought.Buy another phone then Seriously. You are then not forced to do anything.
Don't know where you live but in the UK, the government stopping the sale of leaded petrol is the state forcing me to change to another fuel. The industry were more than happy with leaded petrol, them changing the tax scale to make it much more cost effective to use diesel is something different, I am then encouraged to use it. I make my choice based on a set of compromises like I and you do with phones.
Buy another phone then Seriously. If we all bought Nokias Apples moves would have little effect.

 

[H2SO4]

We're talking about Apple here. The company that:

a) Forces you to gain permission to use a device you've paid for (i.e. activate it) using their servers every time you restore it. If Apple's servers don't work (or they close them down) you can't use your device.
b) Requires you to download an entire 650MB+ file to update the smallest of things - USING A COMPUTER! when other manufacturers have had OTA and small updates for years
c) Requires you to sync with iTunes (I'm not even going to write about how bad iTunes is) to do the tinest of things like adding a ringtone to your phone, when other devices can do it without a computer at all
d) Plays to every whim of the carriers (particularly AT&T), restricting how people use their devices

I don't expect a "soft SIM" approach implemented by Apple to be of any benefit to consumers. The above four things benefit Carriers but not users. I expect(ed) Apple's "Soft SIM" approach to be no different.

I can't perceive how a "Soft SIM" approach implemented even by a saint would be of any benefit to consumers. It simply wouldn't offer them any more flexibility than they already have and it would take conveniences away from them.

a) If they made it plain upfront that you had to use a computer to update/sync/activate or whatever you're bleating about then you chose to do it. They didn't force you.
b) I'm on the fence about this - I gather they did it as the carriers wouldn't be able to support the required bandwidth, but yes the downloads are massive.
c) See, "a".
d) See, "a". Just remember, you lease airtime, you don't buy it. You have therefore agreed to do/have certain things.
As to the soft SIM, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[H2SO4]

Time to go threw you list and show you what you have big time wrong.



1) False. BIG TIME FALSE. I was doing it for free on my own easily back in 2005 and I know before that and that was just on a dumb phone. All it took was mp3 file cut to the correct size and loaded on the phone. BOOM Done. iPhone made it harder as they more forced you to buy a ring tone until people figured out away around it. You should see the complaints on these boards at first. APPLE MADE IT HARDER NOT EASIER

2. False again. Limit to smart phone they been putting games and apps on them for free for years. Biggest limitation was processing power. Again 2005 I load some of my dumb phone for free. Basic simple games that was nice to play to kill time.

3. False YET AGAIN That restriction was released before the iPhone and AT&T NEVER and I repeat NEVER had it. Hell iPhone lags in the blutooth file transfers any how. So again Apple is behind the curve.

4. False again mobile internet was taking off around that time. iPhone was a quick demand for AT&T but if you looked at the other carrier you would of seen their demand for internet growing at a very fast pace as well with similar curves. Not iPhone related.

5. FALSE again AT&T never blocked phone that was not licensed by them. Any unlock GSM phone would work great on their network. Just pop in your sim and go. Verizon and Sprint I will give you that one but that was part of the CDMA restrictions than anything else.

6. Not all carriers yet offer VVM that have the iPhone. Will say Apple pushed it but now almost all phones can do it. I use google voice for my VVM and I find that a hell of a lot better than what Apple offers.

7. FALSE AGAIN on GSM activation for everything but the iPhone was take out your old sim pop it in the new phone and BOOM you were done. Still that way for everything but the iPhone. iPhone activation is a bigger pain in the ass and every time a new one comes out just look at the activation hell all because Apple will not let the easy swap sim and be done with it. APPLE MADE IT WORSE NOT BETTER.

So of that list you have 5 that are complete false. 1 that is 1/2 false and one I will sort-of give you.
On top of that Apple made several of the items you claim to be better a hell of a lot worse and MUCH MUCH more annoying.

Nope Rodimus not quite. First off most people here made the choice to buy the iPhone regardless of whether they read the small print or not.

As to the ringtone thing - that's your choice but just remember you licensed the iPhone OS, you DID NOT buy it, however you choose to look at it.
Your point about the games, fair enough.
BT, neither you nor Essentail Parado can prove this so I'll ignore it.
Now I work in telephone hubs BT, Virgin media, C&W, Nortel etc. quite often and I can tell you that the networks were not suitable, for the growing pace of smartphones, not just iPhone. They needed to and still do need to install a lot of hardware upgrades.
I know nothing of Verizon and AT&T.
Quite frankly that bit about activation isn't really even hidden in some obscure chapter on page 3096 of a 6 point font user manual. You knew it before you even opened the box.