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Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
Just for some clarity in this pile of BS

Motorola is trying to require Microsoft to do the same thing with the Windows Phone and samsumg is doing the same with Apple and Microsoft.

This tells me there is some anti-competitive action going on.

Oh. And Google says it will do the same thing if it is allowed to buy Motorola IP.

Google is so "open and friendly"

Ha !

;)


Any link to back this?
 

fredfnord

macrumors regular
Sep 9, 2007
127
19
Opinions are like...

It's amazing how many people here who have opinions that, as far as I can tell, could not actually be held if they'd even bothered to read any of the articles that have popped up about this subject. (Or perhaps I underestimate peoples' ability to withstand cognitive dissonance?)

So, let's compare.

Apple:
Apple has a bunch of design patents on the iPhone, because, when they introduced it, there was nothing on the market that even vaguely resembled it. Thus, they were able to patent the design (it's a pity that design patents are even called patents, because they're much more similar to trade dress than they are to 'real' invention patents). Like it or hate it, this is the truth: the iPhone started everything rolling. Ditto, except somewhat less so, with the iPad.

There are now a bunch of companies that are trying to make something that looks and acts as close as possible to the way an iPhone or iPad does without violating those patents. Apple is suing them because *that's how you decide what is too close*. If Apple didn't sue anyone over them, then they would be free to take Apple's designs, copy them precisely, and undercut Apple on price (because they don't need to do anything hard like material science work, customer testing, OS design (Google does that for free), and because for *some* of them they're quite happy to cut corners on materials and quality, they can afford to price goods dramatically cheaper than Apple and still make a healthy profit.)

So the only way to establish where the line is, when a manufacturer is simply creating a clone of an iPhone vs. when they're just basing their design ideas on the look of an iPhone, is by lawsuit. This might make you uncomfortable. Perhaps you think that your own judgement would be a much more reasonable standard, and that all these companies should just pay you a million a year each to look at their phones and decide when a design is infringing or when it isn't, and then Apple wouldn't have to be a big meanie and sue someone. But guess what? That's not how the system works.

Now, Motorola:
In the early days of cell phones, Motorola did a whole bunch of research and came up with ideas on how they thought cell phones should work. Those ideas were patented, and so when Motorola suggested that they be incorporated in a standard, they were told that their licensing terms must be fair and reasonable. Because otherwise Motorola could dominate the industry: just wait say 5 years for the standard to fully take hold, and then announce that you're charging 25% royalties for the patents. Then mark your phones down to cost, and sue anyone who doesn't comply, and watch all your competitors go out of business, because they need to charge 40% more than you do: part to pay you your royalty, which is where you make your money since you're not making any on your handset, and the other part to actually make a profit. Result? In a few years, only Motorola is making handsets. And if someone figures out how to make a profit, you just raise their royalties to 50%, or 100%, or 150% for that matter.

So Motorola agrees to FRAND (although possibly they didn't? reports seem unclear on this point. If they didn't, then it was utterly insane for the standards body to allow this), and so do another thirty or so companies that hold patents on cell-phone-related technologies. And everyone has basically similar patent terms, which means that when new players want to get into the game, there isn't this group that have cross-licensed patents that can conspire to keep them out.

And then Apple comes along, and suddenly Motorola wants 2.5% (or 2.25%?) of the sale price of everything cell-related that Apple sells. Now, even discounting the fact that this is almost certainly an order of magnitude more than Motorola gets from anyone else, imagine this: every company in that thirty or so that hold essential patents on cell phone technologies owns something that Apple MUST USE in order to make the iPhone. Basically, they're all non-optional. So there's no reason to say that any one is a lot more important than any other one. In fact, at least in some cases, it's not even a technical requirement (which can sometimes be worked around)... it's a requirement imposed by the standards body itself.

So, what if each one of them wants 2.5%? Why shouldn't Qualcomm get 2.5% if Motorola does? After all, both of them hold patents without which it is impossible to make a cell phone.

So, then, 30 x 2.5% is 75%. So Apple's royalties are 75% for every cell phone. And these are the patents that are *required* to make a cell phone. Now, would that, do you think, be considered fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory? Do you honestly think that all the other cell phone companies pay 75% of the end price of their units to all the other companies? Or perhaps you mean 'non-discriminatory' to include 'Apple pays a higher percentage than anyone else'? And as for 'reasonable', that seems pretty laughable to me.

But I guess it's a lot easier to reconcile if you are simply someone who must find fault with Apple in anything it does. After all, if you were to only go after Apple when they were in the wrong (which happens plenty often), then they might start to fix the things that are wrong with them. And the Apple haters would loathe that, because it would leave them with less and less to criticize, which is awful if a substantial portion of your ego rests on hating a corporation. (Which is a pretty entertaining phenomenon in itself.) Fortunately, they have stumbled upon an answer: if a loud minority of the population criticizes Apple for everything they do all the time, then Apple will ignore all of that criticism, treating it as noise, and correcting very little.

Isn't that nice?
 

mjtomlin

Guest
Jan 19, 2002
384
0
First you are sarcastic implying that kdarling doesn't have inside info and then you ahead and assert something which would only be known by an insider?

Hmmmm:rolleyes:

You do know that Apple failed to show up at the original trial to defend themselves? I suppose we could guess they simply got a flat tire and couldn't make it OR we could go with what has become obvious, they wanted to force this injunction and get the FRAND issue put front and center.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
It's amazing how many people here who have opinions that, as far as I can tell, could not actually be held if they'd even bothered to read any of the articles that have popped up about this subject.

Exactly what you have done after that sentence?
 
Last edited:

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
You do know that Apple failed to show up at the original trial to defend themselves? I suppose we could guess they simply got a flat tire and couldn't make it OR we could go with what has become obvious, they wanted to force this injunction and get the FRAND issue put front and center.

Missed the point entirely. You want to "accuse" someone of making assumptions and then you go ahead and make some of your own. That's called hypocrisy. You can disagree with his premise and even state your own in a better way.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
You're absolutely right.

Motorola claims it approached Apple in 2007 regarding licensing. Apple didn't consider it fair, apparently, and let the matter sit with the courts. Turned out to be a smart move.

Unfortunately it's illegal in Germany to "let it sit", as I already pointed out above.

To get FRAND terms, both sides have to negotiate in good faith and that requires making offers and counteroffers.

Motorola made an offer in 2007. Legally, Apple had to respond with either an acceptance or a counter-offer, but in either case they had to immediately begin making payments or posting a bond.

So a question is, did Apple do either of those? Well, we have a big clue that they most likely did not: under FRAND terms the patent owner cannot even ask for an injunction UNLESS the patent customer has not been dealing in good faith.
 

Peace

Cancelled
Apr 1, 2005
19,546
4,556
Space The Only Frontier
Unfortunately it's illegal in Germany to "let it sit", as I already pointed out above.

To get FRAND terms, both sides have to negotiate in good faith and that requires making offers and counteroffers.

Motorola made an offer in 2007. Legally, Apple had to respond with either an acceptance or a counter-offer, but in either case they had to immediately begin making payments or posting a bond.

So a question is, did Apple do either of those? Well, we have a big clue that they most likely did not: under FRAND terms the patent owner cannot use injunctions UNLESS the patent customer has not been dealing in good faith.


Understandable but what happens if the patent holder refuses to adhere to the FRAND terms when making an offer ?

Isn't that illegal. To offer a license to a technology that is covered by FRAND for a price that is is over and above the normal FRAND terms ?
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
That is not what it was about. The patent wasn't about a rectangle... it was about a total form-factor for a device that previously was not in existence before Apple introduced the iPad.

There is a HUGE difference

The community design has nothing to do with the iPad.

The community design is ONLY about a rectangle
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
Understandable but what happens if the patent holder refuses to adhere to the FRAND terms when making an offer ?

Isn't that illegal. To offer a license to a technology that is covered by FRAND for a price that is is over and above the normal FRAND terms ?

Yes, is illegal, but the answer to a non FRAND offer is not rest in silence for years without paying
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
Understandable but what happens if the patent holder refuses to adhere to the FRAND terms when making an offer ?

Isn't that illegal. To offer a license to a technology that is covered by FRAND for a price that is is over and above the normal FRAND terms ?

Apple would still be legally obligated to put in what it thought was a fair counter offer and follow suit. We already have history to tell us that Apple did not do that with Nokia.

Apple is hoping that it money can outlast the other guy and force them to settle at a much much lower amount and Apple gets to keep all the interested earned. This time the gamble might back fire on them big time because Motorola just got much deeper pocket (aka Google) and can afford for a longer drawn out fight in court. It could easy end up Apple having to pay a higher rate, interested earned on the money, penalty payments and the legal fees. It is a gamble Apple can afford to loss but does not take the sting out of it.

----------

All the quotes originated from Foss Patents.

Anything from Foss Patents that is editorial or opinion based you need to take with a massive grain of salt. The guy is a known MS fan and a MS shell.
 

Peace

Cancelled
Apr 1, 2005
19,546
4,556
Space The Only Frontier
Nonetheless. The end result is Motorola did NOT adhere to FRAND when offering IP to Apple. THAT is wrong and anti-competitive.

That's the bottom line.

In the beginning Motorola was obligated to offer FRAND terms. They did not.

Say what you will about Apple but that fact remains.
 

mjtomlin

Guest
Jan 19, 2002
384
0
No, and no.

EDGE is not 3G technology and HDSPA/HSUPA is no 4G technology

I stand corrected. I thought I remembered reading at the time that these were new generation technologies bolted on to older networks to gain speed advantages.

They were more than likely mismarketed as such, much in the same way 4G is today.
 

jkichline

macrumors 6502
Aug 25, 2010
362
190
Pretty Heated

Wow, these comments are incredibly heated. I think it's far to say however, that most commenters don't understand intellectual property law and the differences between the litigation of Apple and Motorola.

First, Motorola is attempting to get an injunction of Apple products over a single FRAND patent. Now I don't doubt that Apple has probably been a pain in negotiations with Motorola, but I'm sure that Motorola has not been pleasant to deal with either. The truth is that Apple is making the majority of profits and revenues as compared to all other mobile device manufacturers. Because of that, Motorola may have demands a higher licensing rate and Apple was not going to pay for that. The reason would be simple... FRAND includes the phrase "non-discriminatory". This means you can't charge one company five cents per chip and another company 2.25% per phone. It's just not fair or non-discriminatory.

I don't doubt that Motorola had to push towards an injunction if they were not getting paid, but the question is if they were breaking the promise they made to the 3G standards bodies when they placed that patent into FRAND. That's what Apple is saying: that there needs to be some oversight in the process because these other players are bullying Apple into paying more, presumably because they are successful and profitable.

Now on the flip side, you have Apple how is suing for injunctions on a different type of patent. In some cases these are "trade dress" or "design" patents in how something looks. It would be simliar to ripping off someone's logo or merchandising style. It confuses the user and it has to do with branding. Typically I hear "Apple is trying to patent the rectangle". They are not. They are patenting the look of the iPad and Samsung's product looked a lot like the iPad. I'm an iOS/Android developer and I get emails from people who have downloaded my apps in iTunes and are trying to install them on Android devices. You can say they are stupid, but the fact is that many people don't know the difference between the two and Apple is protecting that.

I think Samsung did the right thing by subtly redesigning their product and lifting the injunction. It isn't that hard. Changing the shape was just one suggestion by the Apple legal team. Adding a logo on the front, using a different color, adding a border, etc... these are all legitimate ideas. Again, I'm not trying to stick up for Apple necessarily, but just saying that these are different kinds of IP.

The last piece are what I would call "hard patents". These are on technology that is unique to a specific company, not submitted to standards committees and on how things work and the specific manner to do those things. Apple has some big ones like multi-touch and the real-time API patent. Microsoft has these too. The question is if Motorola, Samsung, etc have similar patents that Apple is infringing so that they can work out a cross-licensing deal. My guess is that they don't, or don't want to have those patents invalidated so they are starting first with these FRAND patents.

Knowing Apple, they will probably just move to 4G, make sure that the licensing is determined and then drop 3G products like a sack of potatoes. They may just endgame around the traditional telecom folks and build their own WiFi carrier. Perhaps that's what the cash hoard is for.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
Nonetheless. The end result is Motorola did NOT adhere to FRAND when offering IP to Apple. THAT is wrong and anti-competitive.

That's the bottom line.

In the beginning Motorola was obligated to offer FRAND terms. They did not.

Say what you will about Apple but that fact remains.

That's the bottom line? And you're stating things as facts? Please indicate sources for these facts.

Truth is you're simply stating your opinion - which seems apparently pro-Apple biased.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
I stand corrected. I thought I remembered reading at the time that these were new generation technologies bolted on to older networks to gain speed advantages.

They were more than likely mismarketed as such, much in the same way 4G is today.


I have seen that is very common that US carriers say there is 4G when they have HSDPA+/HSUPA networks.

Perhaps there is 21mbps download speed (or even 42mbps with dual carrier), but this is not 4G
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
Unfortunately it's illegal in Germany to "let it sit", as I already pointed out above.

To get FRAND terms, both sides have to negotiate in good faith and that requires making offers and counteroffers.

Motorola made an offer in 2007. Legally, Apple had to respond with either an acceptance or a counter-offer, but in either case they had to immediately begin making payments or posting a bond.

So a question is, did Apple do either of those? Well, we have a big clue that they most likely did not: under FRAND terms the patent owner cannot even ask for an injunction UNLESS the patent customer has not been dealing in good faith.

Does Apple's lack of good faith in the past have any bearing on what rate they should be paying now (granted Moto would have back payments coming)?

If not, it's essentially two separate issues. What FRAND really means and Apple's negligence on licensing.
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
Knowing Apple, they will probably just move to 4G, make sure that the licensing is determined and then drop 3G products like a sack of potatoes. They may just endgame around the traditional telecom folks and build their own WiFi carrier. Perhaps that's what the cash hoard is for.

Excellent point. At this stage Apple has a great deal of freedom of movement.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
Knowing Apple, they will probably just move to 4G, make sure that the licensing is determined and then drop 3G products like a sack of potatoes. They may just endgame around the traditional telecom folks and build their own WiFi carrier. Perhaps that's what the cash hoard is for.

Yap, because there is a lot of 4G areas in the world, no?

WiFi carrier where? In the middle of a mountain or 2 miles inside the sea?
 
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