Apple Q3 Conference Call Results

[joeboy_45101]

it doesnt matter what they put in an emac. kids like design. and the emac looks horriable.

The eMac wasn't designed to be a fashion model; it's the less attractive, but not ugly, younger sister that has a college degree.

Most kids are not buying these machines, it's their parents. And most parents don't care about how pretty it is, but rather,"will this machine perform well enough for my child while they're in school?"

 

[mhouse]

Expensive iMac

I love Apple and I love the iMac. I own a 15 inch flat-panel super drive version. But I still want to say this: the new iMac must be cheaper or it must have some dramatic new design feature that makes it worth 1300 bucks.

I have read the arguments go back and forth on this thread, and both sides make good points.

For those of you saying that the iMac will cost the same or even be more expensive: you're probably right.

However, those hoping/advocating for a cheaper iMac are those same people who still hope that Apple might actually increase marketshare someday. 4 or even *gasp* 5 percent would be nice

So I think both sides have merit...

*If* Apple still has any vision of using the iMac to gain marketshare (which it did with the G3 version), then 1299 bucks is not going to cut it (barring some *drastic* innovation to justify the premium price).

*If* Apple just wants to put a new machine out there, sell 200,000 or so per quarter and make a tidy profit, then a 1299 iMac is just fine.

Folks are willing to pay a premium for design and the Apple brand for sure, but there is a limit. The original G3 iMac was around 200-300 bucks more than a similarly configured peecee. The G4 was *at best* 500-600 bucks more than a similarly configured peecee. A 1300+ machine, unless it is a design knockout (and its hard for me to believe that anything could be more elegant than the G4 iMac is), is not going to help marketshare. I think everyone can agree to that.

The flat panel iMac, as lovely as it is, was a flop *compared* to the sales of the G3 crt iMac.

Its not really a matter of someone being wrong or right, its a matter of what Apple intends to do in terms of strategy.

 

[gopher]

Headless iMac unlikely

The sad truth for those of you looking for one, the headless iMac is unlikely. The eMac has taken the place of the iMac as the educational desktop. The iMac really is there to be a middle of the road desktop between the G5s and the eMacs. Concerns about knocking the iMac off its perch beause of its design have basically made it a tough sell to education. The eMac is perfect for that. An integrated desktop unit with everything you could need. Fortunately the Flat Panel iMac has faired better than the Cube in terms of sales. Ironically when the Cube was out there, people were criticizing its price for having no display and still costing more than people were willing to spend on desktops. Now they have a display built-in to the eMac and iMac, and people still criticize Apple. You can't make everyone happy. There are still plenty of used and refurbished Macs for lower prices at sites like those listed on http://www.macmaps.com/usedrefurbished.html if you want an equivalent priced headless machine to those of PC machines. And believe me those low priced PCs really are not much better than the used and refurbished Macs out there. I'll eat my hat if Apple introduces a cheaper iMac.

 

[blakemsf]

I think that if Apple did make an aluminum iMac G5 with the logic board and drives mounted behind the display it would be ugly, it would just look like Apple's version of the Profile 4. This design is ugly. I would rather they kept the current body style but replacing the plastice body parts with brushed aluminum. They don't have to completely redesign the damn thing everytime they upgrade it. Look at the PowerMac it still has the same outlined body that the old B/W G3's had: tower, with side access, and the handle bars. You could break the iMac design down into: dome base, adjustable neck, and flatscreen(removable, maybe)

We Get these with 512MB RAM(1 stick) for around $1500 a pop with 4 year warrenty (Education Discount)
Video Card is lacking some like the iMac and similar concept.
Also not listed on side is 1 4pin Firewire 400 and 1 6pin Firewire 400 ports.
http://content.gateway.com/www.gateway.com/img/prod/249x176/prf5mx_pd.jpg
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional1
Intel® LANDesk Client Manager Software v6.3
Norton AntiVirus Software 90 day Introductory Offer2
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 2.8GHz with Hyper-Threading Technology and 800MHz FSB3
256MB 333MHz DDR SDRAM (1-256MB module)
80GB Ultra ATA100 7200rpm hard drive4
Integrated 1.44MB 3.5" floppy diskette drive
Integrated 12x/24x CD-ROM CDRW/DVD ROM
Desktop Value Plus Service Plan -- 3 year part/labor/on-site/3 year technical support5
(1) Type II PC card slot with and cardbus support
(6) USB 2.0 ports (2 side, 4 rear), (1) Serial (back), (1) Parallel, (2) PS/2
Line-in, line-out and mic (back), headphone and mic (front), VGA-out (in back on NVIDIA® graphics configurations), VGA-in
15.38" x 17.33" x 7.25" (WxHxD), approximately 22.8lb.6
17" LCD flat panel display
Integrated Intel® Extreme Graphics 2 with 64MB shared memory buffer

 

[~Shard~]

Yes, I'm a whiner about the iMac. But instead of a complaint that the iMac was lacking a G5, my whine has been that the G4 iMac was overpriced for its position in the Mac product line. If, instead of replacing G4 iMacs with G5 iMacs for the same or higher prices, Apple kept the G4 iMacs too and dropped their prices, it would be better for me personally. But I realize it won't happen. I'm in the market for a low-end Mac with an LCD monitor as a second home system. My previous iMac choice was overpriced. My new iMac choices may be too expensive for me. Maybe we need LCD eMacs?

I agree wth you, and I wouldn't call yourself a whiner by any means. I was only referring to a select few people who, well, whine. But yes, it will be interesting to see wha Apple's strategy is with the eMacs once these G5 iMacs are released...

 

[Rod Rod]

Macs usually come with less memory than their PC counterparts... but you can always upgrade it, like... errrr... double it... or put some nice 1GHz [in the iMac] and throw away [or sell it at eBay??] the original 256MB DIMM [and I actually know you can already top its memory at 2GB... sweeeeeet, but expensive! so I don't even talk about that!]"

I've got good news for you - the 256MB built into your iMac is in the "non-user-accessible" slot. So, when you install a 512MB stick you'll have a total of 768MB.

I don't know what the prices are in Portugal, but over here you can get a 1GB stick (for the non-user-accessible slot) for $200. It might be $50 to get it installed by an Apple certified tech. That's the best way to get 1GB total RAM in a USB 2.0 iMac, because it costs the same or less compared to 2x512 sticks and you still have the chance to upgrade to the full 2GB in the future (and without having an Apple certified tech open up the machine a second time).

Upgrading the RAM in the user-accessible slot will not void your warranty.

Speculation:

The G5 iMac will have a square-shaped base with rounded-off corners. The rounded-off corners will echo the G4 iMac's frame around its screen. Instead of the G4 iMac's 10.6"-diameter circle, the G5 iMac will be 9"x9" square.

It won't be a pyramid-type shape, but instead a half-cylinder / classic mailbox shape, and still white.

When you have new messages in Mail.app, a red flag will pivot upwards on the side.

 

[vitaboy]

We Get these with 512MB RAM(1 stick) for around $1500 a pop with 4 year warrenty (Education Discount)
Video Card is lacking some like the iMac and similar concept.
Also not listed on side is 1 4pin Firewire 400 and 1 6pin Firewire 400 ports.

[followed by a whole bunch of pointless stats]

Funny, never once is the educational value of a system mentioned. How will the PC be used? What will it be used to teach? What kind of skills will students end up with?

The Apple site is full of stories about how Macs are being used in creative, educationally valuable ways. For example, check out the story on the iLife Educator Awards. Kids are doing some AMAZING things with Macs and integrated learning. Apple has always been about how Macs can be used to truly enhance learning and involve students' minds. Where is a similar package of software on the PC's list of features? What are the kids in Windows-dominated schools doing with their PCs once Dell drops the shipment at the door?

Compare this to Gateway or Dell's education pitch, which mostly consists of misleading upfront cost, followed by the singular argument, "Windows is what is used in the real world so it's better for kids." It's funny how the 4 years of support doesn't cover the cost of anti-virus software, or the time needed to regularly scan and remove spyware, nor the downtime experienced whenever Windows needs to be reinstalled due to the said spyware and virus infections.

There almost seems to be a pathological obsession with listing features and price with Windows advocates, but very rarely do I ever see the answer to the question, "How will the thing be used?" It's almost like the school administrators who buy the PCs just want to sign the purchase order just so they won't have to think about it anymore, as if the PCs will magically turn students into inquisitive learning machines simply by sitting in the classroom.

"Ooh! These Windows machines come with Microsoft Office! That will really teach our kids critical thinking skills necessary so they can find highly desirable jobs as executive assistants and data entry specialists! I know I could use an executive assistant who knew how to use Word better. Forget all the looney integrated, multimedia approach that's possible with all the software Macs come with! Everyone knows only commie hippie artists use Macs, and I just happen to know artists are always starving. Who wants to spend money on THAT? Why, that means we'll have to redesign our lesson plans instead of simply making the student memorize passages out of our textbooks and throwing them into mind-expanding classes so they can learn how to format text in Word! Maybe after they graduate from high school, one of them can apply for a job as my executive assistant! Word processing totally rules, I wish we had this instead of typewriters when I went to school, because then I'd be the president of a major university instead of a mere principal of an elemenary school, teaching our kids to use Word will really prepare them for a bright future. Excel? I guess a lot of scientists use that for calculations, but, uh, it seems kinda complicated. I know! We'll teach kids how to use Excel to make really useful things like shopping lists and calendars! Kids hate math anyway, just like I did, and who needs algebra anyway? I love Dell, because the make the BEST educational PCs because Dells come with Word PRE-INSTALLED! How can you compete with that? Note to self: give pat on back for buying those education-enhancing Dells."

 

[Doctor Q]

It's almost like the school administrators who buy the PCs just want to sign the purchase order just so they won't have to think about it anymore, as if the PCs will magically turn students into inquisitive learning machines simply by sitting in the classroom.

Well said and oh so true, except for the words "It's almost like" and "as if". The administrators I've worked with do exactly that. They treat computers as commodities (Macs too, not just PCs) and look at specs for the money, not the purpose for which the computer will be used. This isn't that surprising since that's what they do for other items they purchase - from chalkboards to chairs and from overhead projectors to lab supplies. Such items don't require new thinking about possible uses. School curriculum is slow to change, and professional educators need to do more thinking, and then teacher training, to make computers in classrooms come to better use. There are success stories and sad failures, of course, but I've seen it at multiple schools - administrators buy whatever sounds good, without consulting teachers, and teachers don't know what to do with the computer once it arrives.

Like you, I expect that a well-thought out plan for the best use of classroom computer funds would result in more Macintosh sales.

 

[Mainyehc]

Heretical idea (by Apple's design standards) for world domination?...

Upgrading the RAM in the user-accessible slot will not void your warranty.

Yes, I know that, that's why I said I may be getting a SO-DIMM, so I can install it myself

I've got good news for you - the 256MB built into your iMac is in the "non-user-accessible" slot. So, when you install a 512MB stick you'll have a total of 768MB.

I already knew that, but thanks, anyway. And I might be preety happy with that amount of RAM as I'm looking forward to get a PM G5, NOT a new iMac G5, even though I'm preety sure they'll be sweet machines... I just bought the flagship iMac because I'm not exactly a "power user" yet, and I'm a switcher, so I don't care much about having a headless Mac coz' my old peecee (and its monitor) stinks. If I already had a DVI TFT or an Apple Display, things would be different though )

However, I wouldn't mind keeping my lovely iMac (for that matter, I think that the original FP iMac G4 will become a true legend, like the Cube) alive and kickin' for years to come, so I might consider getting one of those 1GB sticks (non-user-accessible). I didn't know it was actually cheaper to buy one of those (if you're sure about that, then I finally got that one answered, thanks!!), so I may end up getting 1GB instead of 768MB

Now I just have to find an Apple certified tech... I'm still not sure where I can find one of those around here, though. And as for the RAM itself, I know some people who know some people/have family living in the US, so... pricing shouldn't be a problem - otherwise, I might be in trouble... As I said, my iMac 17'' 1,25GHz cost me about $2600! And my 3G 20GB iPod... $560!! Hardware in general is more expensive here than in the US, but I think the price difference between PC and Apple hardware here is even bigger than there! (and I still haven't found 1GHz sticks avaliable in any reseller here, just the 512MB ones )


And now, for something completely different...

When I was talking about displays, an interesting question came across my mind... Aren't these cool all-in-ones also great for some specific kind of switchers, besides some anti-clutter purists? I wasn't afraid of getting a Mac, I know a Power Mac would also work fine for my needs (waaaaay better, actually ) (and now I'm also completely hooked-up to Mac OS X, my iPod, etc, well, nevermind ), but I'm a "wannabe-power-user", and a "design freak". Non-upgradeable all-in-ones? Bring them on, they are great for moderately ambitious switchers like me.

Still... Apple should have an affordable headless Mac, and I think it wouldn't cannibalize iMac sales at all. And as for the incoherence between the box and the screen, heck, you can use a non-Apple display with the PowerMacs already!! And besides, that COULD make possible for Apple to enter the enterprise market. It would mean some design compromising, yes, but I think it would be the non-Apple CRTs or TFTs that would look AWFUL beside or on top of a gleaming white (or aluminium) pizzabox with a beautiful chrome Apple on it, NOT the box itself (it would look gorgeous, everyone must have guessed that ). And I positively think that apple SHOULD fill the 17'' hole in their display line. Perhaps a white iDisplay to connect with the iBox?

Ok, maybe this is asking too much from Apple... This is like asking them to "Think Different[ly]" from how they use to think, so, it's like asking them to "Think Equal[ly]" (to their competition), YES, for a change. Would this mean the demise of Apple's unbreakable design principles? Not necessarily... As the eMacs were initially sold only to the educational market, these Macs, (they could be called cMacs, the "c" standing for "corporate" as the "e", which could stand for "enterprise" is already taken) could be sold to the enterprise market ONLY (they would eventually end up in the employees' homes, as 2nd hand bargains, I know ). They would be the ultimate trojan horse aimed at the "average-Joe-user". (And btw, just think how seamlessly these machines would network in the corporate environment when combined with Xserves!).

Then, if more people used Macs at work, they would surely be less "afraid" of having Macs at home, too. Macs, and SPECIALLY OS X, could become a little ubiquitous (and without having to port OS X to x86... OS X running on Wintel boxes ). And they were supposed to get iMacs (or eMacs, or PowerMacs, for that matter) instead, if Apple still was stubborn enough not to let individual customers get their hands on the iBoxes/cMacs/whatever-they'd-be-called. Think about it, Apple would be not only targeting the hip, rich crowd with the iPod and iPod mini, they would also be targeting corporations and subsequently, their employees... Are you reading these lines, Steve?? Double-digit marketshare in ten years time? It could be done, and if there is ONE corporation capable of pulling out something like that, Apple is definitely the one!!
Either way, Go Apple!!

 

[BenRoethig]

What I'd like to see from the G5 iMac

Minitower Case
White Plastic Exterior
2 5.25" Bays
2 3.5" Bays
1.8, 2.0ghz G5
2 DIMM Slots PC2700 single channel
1 8x AGP (replaced by PCI-E x16 Rev. B)
3 PCI slots (replaced by PCI-E x1 Rev. B)
A new 52x combo drive that finally replaces the obsolete 32x model
1299 for 1.8ghz
1599 for 2.0ghz
matching 15 and 17 inch consumer displays also introduced.

 

[~Shard~]

What I'd like to see from the G5 iMac

Minitower Case

Nope - the iMac prides itself on its unique asthetic designs, not by looking like a PC in a generic minitower case.

2 5.25" Bays
2 3.5" Bays

Unlikely - although limited expansion might be introduced in the G5 iMac, I doubt it would be to this scale. The iMac is an all-in-one machine, and although expandability/upgradability would be nice, I don't think Apple would incorprate it with so many bays as you are suggesting.

1.8, 2.0ghz G5

The 1.6 GHz G5s never sold too well, so I bet you Apple has quite a few of those chips kicking around. Since those are mighty powerful chips on their own (as are the G5s in general), I think a 1.6 and 1.8 line-up would be more than adequate for this initial release of the G5 iMac. Perhaps a 2.0 GHz could be included in the top end model, but I will not be surprised nor disappointed if the line is simply a 1.6 and a 1.8...

2 DIMM Slots PC2700 single channel

Why would Apple upgrade everything else yet leave the RAM the same? DDR400 RAM should be included, not DDR333. This would work better with all the other technology improvements to the processor, motherboard, etc. that are going to have to be made for the G5 iMac anyway.

A new 52x combo drive that finally replaces the obsolete 32x model

I personally don't see this as a huge deal, as I would hardly call 32x drives "obsolete" - they're still plenty fast! Are you really going to notice a big difference between 32x and 52x? To me it's the same difference as a 16x CD burner and a 32x CD burner - ooh, I can burn a disc in 3 minutes instead of 4 minutes... But, whatever makes you happy...

I don't know why you would mention a combo drive though and not make mention of the SuperDrive - this seems to make much more sense to me. Throw in a 8x SuperDrive to match the PowerMacs - now there's a sensible upgrade!

1299 for 1.8ghz
1599 for 2.0ghz
matching 15 and 17 inch consumer displays also introduced.

Those prices are far too low, unless you are excluding the cost of the display - even then, I see the new G5 iMacs as being more expensive than the current line-up. And if you are implying that the displays should be separate from the iMac, then once again, this is going against the model of the iMac, which is a nice, all-in-one solution. Of course there is nothing saying Apple won't break the mold, but I find that highly doubtful...

My prediction is that the G5 iMacs will sell for more than the current G4 iMacs do - but due to the technology advancements, it will be worth it, and it will make sense. Of course there will always be those people who will complain about the new iMacs being too expensive, but some people are never happy unless they have something to complain about...

 

[Wardofsky]

I think my only prediction for the design/specs of the iMac is what I don't expect. It's pretty hard to beat the current iMac in innovative design.

It's a consumer machine so I don't expect to see it having incredibly fast speed or expansion possibilities, if you made something similair (specs) to the tower G5's with a screen built in at a consumer price which one would people go for? (Although an unlikely event)

Can't wait... September seems so long away.

 

[Trekkie]

What I'd like to see from the G5 iMac

Minitower Case
White Plastic Exterior
2 5.25" Bays
2 3.5" Bays

Good God that'd be ugly.

1.8, 2.0ghz G5
2 DIMM Slots PC2700 single channel

OK, I'm with you there.

1 8x AGP (replaced by PCI-E x16 Rev. B)
3 PCI slots (replaced by PCI-E x1 Rev. B)

FYI - The only company 'pushing' PCI-E on the card vendors is Intel. IBM, Sun, HP and maybe a few others are going from card vendor to card vendor telling them 'you have 10 million slots to fill.... The only computer vendors supporting PCI-E are Dell and Gateway and that's because they get their MBs from Intel...

So I'm not with you there. PCI-X and AGP aren't overrun, contrary to what Intel marketing tells you

A new 52x combo drive that finally replaces the obsolete 32x model
1299 for 1.8ghz
1599 for 2.0ghz

CD is ok, but the prices are too low, because I disagree with this

matching 15 and 17 inch consumer displays also introduced.

'consumer' displays? What kinda crack smokety talk is that. LCD displays need to be common across the line or they're going to loose money. I'm disappointed they didn't keep the 17" in the line but introducing a 15" now is just silly considering how low the prices of 17's are getting.

I really don't understand the push for headless iMac's. It's not like the Power Mac is expensive without a monitor. The dual 1.8 is a great price without a nice monitor attached to it. Besides I've got kids in my house so if I upgrade they now have a computer full time to play with. The jumpstart games run just fine in classic mode on the iMac 800MHz FP that I have. It's not like you can't sell your iMac with it's attached display real easy either. Even early iMac's from 98 are still going for $300 - $500 US on eBay which is a great price for a 5 year old computer considering I sold a year old Pentium 4 (2.26GHz) with 1024MB of RAM and a ATI Radeon 9700 for a whopping $475.

 

[~Shard~]

Good God that'd be ugly.

... <snip> ...

Sounds like you and I are on the same page Trekkie - as I mentioned in my similar comments above, I don't think this would make a very good iMac whatsoever...

 

[BenRoethig]

Good God that'd be ugly.

No more the MDD G4s. Besides, air flow would be terrible in a AIO case.

FYI - The only company 'pushing' PCI-E on the card vendors is Intel. IBM, Sun, HP and maybe a few others are going from card vendor to card vendor telling them 'you have 10 million slots to fill.... The only computer vendors supporting PCI-E are Dell and Gateway and that's because they get their MBs from Intel...

So I'm not with you there. PCI-X and AGP aren't overrun, contrary to what Intel marketing tells you

The same thing was said when AGP was first relased. Like it or not, PCI-e is the new standard. Everything new will be PCI-e native. Apple will either have to get on board or be left out in the cold.

'consumer' displays? What kinda crack smokety talk is that. LCD displays need to be common across the line or they're going to loose money. I'm disappointed they didn't keep the 17" in the line but introducing a 15" now is just silly considering how low the prices of 17's are getting.

Consumer as in iMac white instead of professional Aluminum. And by the way, you consider $500 cheap?

I really don't understand the push for headless iMac's. It's not like the Power Mac is expensive without a monitor. The dual 1.8 is a great price without a nice monitor attached to it. .

Two grand may be pocket change for you, but it's a couple hundred more than I'm willing to spend. Especially since the PowerMac being a pro model has no bundled software.

 

[BenRoethig]

it doesnt matter what they put in an emac. kids like design. and the emac looks horriable.

And that's why Apple sold three times as many eMacs as Flat panel iMacs.

 

[Trekkie]

The same thing was said when AGP was first relased. Like it or not, PCI-e is the new standard. Everything new will be PCI-e native. Apple will either have to get on board or be left out in the cold.

My point was a 'consumer' grade system with a 'consumer' grade video card barely excercises AGP 4x or 8x, there is no point in introducing a more expensive slot and more expensive card at the beginning of the intro curve. You're just now seeing the first of the PCI-E 16x Video cards. And they're the top end, monster screamer $1000 + video cards and a few $599+ cards. You're not going to see the ATI Radeon 9600, 9700, or 9800 released in a PCI-E formfactor anytime soon. AGP is around for at least another year or two before 'low end' cards are put into that form factor

Consumer as in iMac white instead of professional Aluminum. And by the way, you consider $500 cheap?

But they've already stated the iMac isn't going to be white, it's going to be aluminum, so white doesn't make sense. having a consumer 'aluminium' one would be silly & then have people trying to decide if they need a 'pro' monitor and have Apple having to carry two product lines at different price points for displays.

Yes, for an LCD display I consider $500 cheap. The displays are easily a 5 year to 10 year investment.

Two grand may be pocket change for you, but it's a couple hundred more than I'm willing to spend. Especially since the PowerMac being a pro model has no bundled software.

I never said the pro models were 'pocket change' No need to put words into my mouth there. I said relatively speaking for a 'headless' system if that's your thing it's not that expensive.

Also what software are you referring to as not being bundled? I see one that I can tell that might be important and that is Appleworks. Other than that it's a marginal toss up between the two. iLife being the most important one I can think of and it's on both of them.

 

[BenRoethig]

My point was a 'consumer' grade system with a 'consumer' grade video card barely excercises AGP 4x or 8x, there is no point in introducing a more expensive slot and more expensive card at the beginning of the intro curve. You're just now seeing the first of the PCI-E 16x Video cards. And they're the top end, monster screamer $1000 + video cards and a few $599+ cards. You're not going to see the ATI Radeon 9600, 9700, or 9800 released in a PCI-E formfactor anytime soon. AGP is around for at least another year or two before 'low end' cards are put into that form factor.

That's why I had it slated for Revision B (late spring-summer '05). By they way, the low end Radeon X300 (based on 9200) and medium range (based on 9600 XT) are already shipping to Dell and HP.

 

[MacinDoc]

What I'd like to see from the G5 iMac

Minitower Case
White Plastic Exterior
2 5.25" Bays
2 3.5" Bays
1.8, 2.0ghz G5
2 DIMM Slots PC2700 single channel
1 8x AGP (replaced by PCI-E x16 Rev. B)
3 PCI slots (replaced by PCI-E x1 Rev. B)
A new 52x combo drive that finally replaces the obsolete 32x model
1299 for 1.8ghz
1599 for 2.0ghz
matching 15 and 17 inch consumer displays also introduced.

With the exception of the memory, these sound like Power Mac specs. Apple may introduce a new headless consumer Mac with these specs, but don't expect any future iMac to be this expandable. Also, I agree with Shard that these prices are too high for this configuration unless displays are not included.

 

[blakemsf]

Funny, never once is the educational value of a system mentioned. How will the PC be used? What will it be used to teach? What kind of skills will students end up with?

The Apple site is full of stories about how Macs are being used in creative, educationally valuable ways. For example, check out the story on the iLife Educator Awards. Kids are doing some AMAZING things with Macs and integrated learning. Apple has always been about how Macs can be used to truly enhance learning and involve students' minds. Where is a similar package of software on the PC's list of features? What are the kids in Windows-dominated schools doing with their PCs once Dell drops the shipment at the door?

Compare this to Gateway or Dell's education pitch, which mostly consists of misleading upfront cost, followed by the singular argument, "Windows is what is used in the real world so it's better for kids." It's funny how the 4 years of support doesn't cover the cost of anti-virus software, or the time needed to regularly scan and remove spyware, nor the downtime experienced whenever Windows needs to be reinstalled due to the said spyware and virus infections.

There almost seems to be a pathological obsession with listing features and price with Windows advocates, but very rarely do I ever see the answer to the question, "How will the thing be used?" It's almost like the school administrators who buy the PCs just want to sign the purchase order just so they won't have to think about it anymore, as if the PCs will magically turn students into inquisitive learning machines simply by sitting in the classroom.

"Ooh! These Windows machines come with Microsoft Office! That will really teach our kids critical thinking skills necessary so they can find highly desirable jobs as executive assistants and data entry specialists! I know I could use an executive assistant who knew how to use Word better. Forget all the looney integrated, multimedia approach that's possible with all the software Macs come with! Everyone knows only commie hippie artists use Macs, and I just happen to know artists are always starving. Who wants to spend money on THAT? Why, that means we'll have to redesign our lesson plans instead of simply making the student memorize passages out of our textbooks and throwing them into mind-expanding classes so they can learn how to format text in Word! Maybe after they graduate from high school, one of them can apply for a job as my executive assistant! Word processing totally rules, I wish we had this instead of typewriters when I went to school, because then I'd be the president of a major university instead of a mere principal of an elemenary school, teaching our kids to use Word will really prepare them for a bright future. Excel? I guess a lot of scientists use that for calculations, but, uh, it seems kinda complicated. I know! We'll teach kids how to use Excel to make really useful things like shopping lists and calendars! Kids hate math anyway, just like I did, and who needs algebra anyway? I love Dell, because the make the BEST educational PCs because Dells come with Word PRE-INSTALLED! How can you compete with that? Note to self: give pat on back for buying those education-enhancing Dells."

I really wasn't saying PC are better than MACs just pointing out that for around 1500 dollars you can get a 17in flat panel and all the stuff that I would like to see in the new iMac. The "old" iMac 17 in was priced about $200 more so it was somewhat high for the market but I think they can come down in price with the new one say $200. As for anti-virus we have a deal with McAfee through the main campus so we don't directly have any cost for that. It supports Anti-virus for PCs and MACs(Virex). And for the spyware which is a pain for PCs we do lock down the computers with Active Directory's Group policy which prevents the majority of those. Also have a deal with Microsoft which allows us to get Office for PC and Macs. They were talking with Apple about getting a deal in which they could get OS upgrades for free for 3 years.

Sorry if you thought I was saying PC are better than Macs, I was just trying to show everyone a "similar" price point with a PC similar to the iMac. I have to work with both PC and Macs so I see what both are good with and what both are bad at.

As for how the PCs will be used, we have Office of course along with Macromedia Studio MX, SPSS, M$ Visual Studio .NET, along with many many PC applications for classes. One thing I would like to see is more software for MACs but I know how that goes.