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Apple 'Questioning' the Future of its Mac Pro Line?
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I don't care if the MacPro gets EOL'd if Apple releases an alternative Mac without a screen and desktop class CPU and GPU.
If they kill off the Mac Pro, what will Ive and his team use then?
Or have they already switched?
Or have they already switched?
This could go in a number of directions. Yes it has been perceived that Apple have been going down the "Dumbed Down" route for the last number of years with the advent of the iPhone/IOS. Then again it has always been a bit like that with Apple. When OS X first appeared it also seemed a bit of a dumbing down of the classic OS. By 2005 OS X was cutting edge.
The Mac Pro as we know it is a great piece of kit and if you think of it, it is exactly the opposite of all other Apple products made by Apple; it is easy to open and change out parts. Even non-tech users can do this. In fact the Mac Pro, as far as I can see is, in this aspect of ease of use and design, is far superior to any other PC box out there.
On the other end off the spectrum the rest of Apple's products are designed by Apple, never to be opened except by dexterous technicians trained by Apple, often with specialist tools supplied by Apple. The last sentence is not exactly accurate but the point is that this is the way Apple wants the world to be when servicing their products.
Although I said that the Mac Pro is great piece of kit the downside is the price leaving the entry level model, that a lot of people would like, inaccessible. Even the RAM is unnecessarily expensive because of the fact that in some models it is not regular memory. On Crucial 8GB of RAM for the original Mac Pro was quite expensive at €250 (The RAM for the current Mac Pro is significantly less pricey €68). 8 GB of RAM for the current iMac is €47.
If Apple does anything in moving away from the pro desktop as we know it perhaps they are going to do something radical. Perhaps something based on the mac mini design where the configuration is based on stackable units that expand that configuration to the needs of the user. Thunderbolt would facilitate this and such an approach would make the pro desktop more accessible to more users who want or need such set ups. Think of it this way if one were adding hard drives, you wouldn't even have to open a box.
To get this right Apple would have to get away from the premium prices they charge for components that are far cheaper from other vendors. They want to play in the consumer electronics arena so they need to stop operating like Bang & Olufsen. If pro windows based configurations can be built for a lot less then Apple needs to get inline.
Even by keeping the core modules made by Apple and allowing third party vendors make the other modules like expansion modules for Ram and Graphics cards would get over this hurdle but I think Apple can do this, do it really well and do it by not making people pay through the nose, just for the sake design and Apple branding.
The modular concept would not cannibalise the iMac because most consumers would still prefer the neat package of the iMac over the stack of component modules that the pro would be happy with.
The Mac Pro as we know it is a great piece of kit and if you think of it, it is exactly the opposite of all other Apple products made by Apple; it is easy to open and change out parts. Even non-tech users can do this. In fact the Mac Pro, as far as I can see is, in this aspect of ease of use and design, is far superior to any other PC box out there.
On the other end off the spectrum the rest of Apple's products are designed by Apple, never to be opened except by dexterous technicians trained by Apple, often with specialist tools supplied by Apple. The last sentence is not exactly accurate but the point is that this is the way Apple wants the world to be when servicing their products.
Although I said that the Mac Pro is great piece of kit the downside is the price leaving the entry level model, that a lot of people would like, inaccessible. Even the RAM is unnecessarily expensive because of the fact that in some models it is not regular memory. On Crucial 8GB of RAM for the original Mac Pro was quite expensive at €250 (The RAM for the current Mac Pro is significantly less pricey €68). 8 GB of RAM for the current iMac is €47.
If Apple does anything in moving away from the pro desktop as we know it perhaps they are going to do something radical. Perhaps something based on the mac mini design where the configuration is based on stackable units that expand that configuration to the needs of the user. Thunderbolt would facilitate this and such an approach would make the pro desktop more accessible to more users who want or need such set ups. Think of it this way if one were adding hard drives, you wouldn't even have to open a box.
To get this right Apple would have to get away from the premium prices they charge for components that are far cheaper from other vendors. They want to play in the consumer electronics arena so they need to stop operating like Bang & Olufsen. If pro windows based configurations can be built for a lot less then Apple needs to get inline.
Even by keeping the core modules made by Apple and allowing third party vendors make the other modules like expansion modules for Ram and Graphics cards would get over this hurdle but I think Apple can do this, do it really well and do it by not making people pay through the nose, just for the sake design and Apple branding.
The modular concept would not cannibalise the iMac because most consumers would still prefer the neat package of the iMac over the stack of component modules that the pro would be happy with.
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I echo the people in this thread that aren't surprised by the possibility that the Mac Pro's days are numbered, but I also echo the sentiment that...well...it sucks.
On the one hand, Apple has been grooming the iMac, particularly the 27" models, to do more of the work previously done by the Mac Pro. Toward this end, if you wanted a quad-core Mac, you've had the option of a 27" iMac for two years now. Previously those customers were Mac Pro customers; at the same cost with the inclusion of a 27" Apple display, those customers are now 27" iMac customers; no brainer. On the other hand, the 27" iMac has Apple's bizarre anorexia and is way thinner than any stationary "desktop" computer NEEDS to be. Given that:
On the other hand, the iMac is the single most user-unfriendly machine to service and/or swap components with. Couple that with the needlessly thin thermal envelope and the fact that, save for the video card and optical drive, the iMacs use all desktop components, you can't easily swap out your iMac's hard drive, and even if you could, you'd need a drive from Apple. The iMac, at its best, uses the best AMD Radeon GPU you can possibly get on a GAMING LAPTOP?! While the Mac Pro doesn't even employ the best video cards you can get on a desktop, they at least trump anything the iMac has ever had. I don't care how cool the iMacs are, until these two things are remedied, the iMac will never be a viable Mac Pro replacement.
The truly sad thing is that, with the current designs of the iMac and Mac mini being what they are, the Mac Pro is the best Mac desktop from both an internal design standpoint and a bang for buck standpoint. Once they kill that, then Apple has left their desktop segment with true crap. Then the options become crap, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air (which is also crap for the same reasons that the iMac and Mac mini are crap). So, MacBook Pro or...? Hackintosh? I'll definitely buy that Thunderbolt has potential, but what if I want a ton of internal storage? Oh wait, I guess with the Mac Pro gone, I HAVE to get a Hackintosh, unless I'm to switch to Windows or Linux. Awesome.
With Apple's notebook computers making up more and more of their Mac sales and their desktop computers making up less and less of it, it only makes sense that we will see their Mac desktop lines slowly die out. It's a shame that the first one to get the axe is the most useful one. Were it my call, I'd kill the freakin' iMac and never look back. My target thereafter being the Mac mini, which I would consider just as egregious if, it too, also had a glass panel that needed to be removed with suction cups or an exposed power supply that will shock the crap out of you if you are careless with it.
On the one hand, Apple has been grooming the iMac, particularly the 27" models, to do more of the work previously done by the Mac Pro. Toward this end, if you wanted a quad-core Mac, you've had the option of a 27" iMac for two years now. Previously those customers were Mac Pro customers; at the same cost with the inclusion of a 27" Apple display, those customers are now 27" iMac customers; no brainer. On the other hand, the 27" iMac has Apple's bizarre anorexia and is way thinner than any stationary "desktop" computer NEEDS to be. Given that:
On the other hand, the iMac is the single most user-unfriendly machine to service and/or swap components with. Couple that with the needlessly thin thermal envelope and the fact that, save for the video card and optical drive, the iMacs use all desktop components, you can't easily swap out your iMac's hard drive, and even if you could, you'd need a drive from Apple. The iMac, at its best, uses the best AMD Radeon GPU you can possibly get on a GAMING LAPTOP?! While the Mac Pro doesn't even employ the best video cards you can get on a desktop, they at least trump anything the iMac has ever had. I don't care how cool the iMacs are, until these two things are remedied, the iMac will never be a viable Mac Pro replacement.
The truly sad thing is that, with the current designs of the iMac and Mac mini being what they are, the Mac Pro is the best Mac desktop from both an internal design standpoint and a bang for buck standpoint. Once they kill that, then Apple has left their desktop segment with true crap. Then the options become crap, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air (which is also crap for the same reasons that the iMac and Mac mini are crap). So, MacBook Pro or...? Hackintosh? I'll definitely buy that Thunderbolt has potential, but what if I want a ton of internal storage? Oh wait, I guess with the Mac Pro gone, I HAVE to get a Hackintosh, unless I'm to switch to Windows or Linux. Awesome.
With Apple's notebook computers making up more and more of their Mac sales and their desktop computers making up less and less of it, it only makes sense that we will see their Mac desktop lines slowly die out. It's a shame that the first one to get the axe is the most useful one. Were it my call, I'd kill the freakin' iMac and never look back. My target thereafter being the Mac mini, which I would consider just as egregious if, it too, also had a glass panel that needed to be removed with suction cups or an exposed power supply that will shock the crap out of you if you are careless with it.
Apple knows this, it's a strategic decision to keep it that way, which is why the Mac Pro won't disappear.
Not sure if you were being serious or not, but thats not how it works. At the point of dicing, the original object has already been split into many smaller sub-objects based on what parts of the mesh are visible to the render camera. These sub-objects are individual patches (called grids) that the engine subdivides independently from each other to arrive at the properly sized micro polygons (the density of which is based on the 'Shading Rate). This is all done to minimize memory consumption and speed up shading operations.
This. I never understood this argument too. Why worry about Mac X "cannibalising" Mac Y when it's more important that Mac X/Y "cannibalise" PC Z?
An entry level Mac Pro would also appeal to a new target audience: gamers. Many of them have an iPhone but would never buy a Mac due to the lack of an affordable model with a desktop gpu.
Apart from Adobe CS5 and Cinema 4D I also use my Mac Pro for gaming. With more and more games installing DRM stuff deep into Windows and even spying on peoples data (EA origin) it's really nice to have all my important stuff on another hd that can't even be read by Windows leaving my Windows hd with only the games and nothing to be lost or spied on. Reading gaming forums many people are concerned about this.
How am I wrong when I'm arguing exactly what you've just restated for our friend ? If I'm wrong, you're also wrong.
I've been using the word SOME since the beginning. I'm meaning exactly what you're saying. High-end workstations are not required anymore for every tasks in content creation. Some of it can be done on lower end systems without any problem, and depending on the platform you're targetting, you could even do all of it competently.
And again, I never denied that there was a need for high-end workstations in certain workflows. I never said they weren't required anymore, I don't know why people insist on viewing my posts in such a black and white way. I'm just saying that as technology advances, there are lessened needs for these. There is and always will be a need for Mac Pro level hardware and beyond even (the Mac Pro isn't that impressive to begin with).
However, the point is Apple is not a "niche" company anymore like they were in the 90s and early 00s. They won't stick to a "niche" that is past its high margin profitability. If 1$ invested in the Mac Pro brings in 1.40$ and 1$ invested in iPhone brings in 1.80$, guess where they will focus their ressources ...
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What overpriced monitor does Apple sell exactly ?
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Wait, did you just call moving from a cooperative multi-tasking system with a GUI front-end that required clicking to get anything accomplished to a full-blown Unix system with a complex display PDF UI sub-system "dumbing down" ?
If anything OS X was a huge step forward over the Classic Mac OS which was really outdated.
I think you need to look up what "dumbing down" means.
No surprises here. The lifespan of the model was getting longer and longer between refreshes, just like....Final Cut Pro and we all know what happened to that.
Apple historically was born out of the creative industries, and yet fails to understand the demands of what was its core market. Great news for consumers = bad news for professionals.
Expecting professionals and industry to 'work around' the limited functionality of their software/hardware is a joke. They should squarely state that these aren't the customers they're after, and focus purely on the consumer market.
Apple historically was born out of the creative industries, and yet fails to understand the demands of what was its core market. Great news for consumers = bad news for professionals.
Expecting professionals and industry to 'work around' the limited functionality of their software/hardware is a joke. They should squarely state that these aren't the customers they're after, and focus purely on the consumer market.
If this happens...rather than go to windows. I would like a OS and platform dedicated to audio. Then the different DAWs would not need to surf on the mainstream computer marked...
Then iKids, fanbois and consumers could have Apple for them self until iThings went out of fashion and....there would be no creative marked comming back or forgiving Apple ;S
Then iKids, fanbois and consumers could have Apple for them self until iThings went out of fashion and....there would be no creative marked comming back or forgiving Apple ;S
Apple isn't a person. If Apple's Desktop/Laptop product line became unpopular and it had to reposition in order to win the creative industry back it could simply offer the best package. When these industries need to replace their hardware surely they look for the best option, not refuse to purchase something out of a nostalgic disappointed spite.
Apple is a corporation like any other designed to add value, maximise efficiency and generate profits for shareholders and capital incentivised management. There is no argument the other way because all the control they have over their hardware, software and add-ons is designed to concentrate revenue lines in accordance to Apple's operational strategy.
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Not Going To Happen
At least not yet. Apple depends on their High Tech image for their total package and having a high-end desktop ultimate computing machine is essential for this image, even if they don't expect a huge profit from sales. The overall image is worth more than the profits.
It's similar to many of the car companies. They make their profit from their mid-level cars, but they all have their high-end model for bragging rights.
I think this is just a distraction to lower expectations until they get their Xeon E5 order from Intel.
At least not yet. Apple depends on their High Tech image for their total package and having a high-end desktop ultimate computing machine is essential for this image, even if they don't expect a huge profit from sales. The overall image is worth more than the profits.
It's similar to many of the car companies. They make their profit from their mid-level cars, but they all have their high-end model for bragging rights.
I think this is just a distraction to lower expectations until they get their Xeon E5 order from Intel.
His point wasn't that you can find a workstation exactly that will give you exactly the same experience for 25% of the cost (exaggerated), but that you could build your own and put on OS X. This obviously isn't a solution for professional use, but when you see that the W3680 is now a $600 processor (not sure why you think it is hard to find at is is a current processor) and there are better graphics cards (some that work on the Mac) for $150-$200 and that the other components can be had for under $500 then a Mac Pro can seem very expensive even for someone working with hardware and software that has cost tens of thousands.
You can buy a retail W3680 for $600!? I'm almost tempted to jump all over that and import it to the UK where it's still £500+ ($800).
And besides, you can't compare now of self-build vs current MP spec, it's basically three year old tech, of course it's going to be cheap to build yourself now.
When the LGA2011 stuff comes out, then we can go along the route of what the self build price is.
[But FYI, when i bought my 2009 MP, the self build price was about £1200, and my MP cost £1900]
Newegg said out of stock yesterday, but I see that it indeed does have the W3680 for $600. I cannot find it in stock in the UK though.
I am still curious, even with this info, how you would build me the machine for a 1/4 of the price and how you would handle the 3 year repair / replacement and support? Hmmm?
Is that $600 inclusive or exclusive of sales tax?
Cheapest price in Holland 590 (inc. VAT) = $812US.
Yeah, that sounds like something I have yet to even begin to approach. If it has anything to do with simplifying complex scenes during render time, I'm still pretty well ignorant.
I was taking the picture literally, as in "I just created a sphere primitive, grabbed two faces, and subdivided them for extra detail in those subsections". That's something you obviously never want to do, because when you subsurf or subdivide the entire model, you'll get pinching in those faces surrounding the bits with the denser mesh.
Case in point (because we all love pretty pictures):
Let's face it, if you need more than a lower end iMac for any kind of processing power you are either running a poorly coded program or have very flimsy data to encode. Either way it means there are more things to worry about than what a couple of hobbyists think about the end of the Mac Pro.
I'm not sure what Apple will do in the end, however Apple is a for profit corporation. If the Mac Pro isn't adding anything to the bottom line then it is hard to make a case to continue it. The reason why we haven't seen much investment in this product line is because they sell so few. The real money is in the iDevices and that is where Apple needs to focus most of their resources in the future. The portables, Mac Mini and iMac offer 95% of computer shoppers what they need. The very very few that still need to purchase a Mac Pro are not going to be a focus going forward. Even if Apple lost those few customers it would make little difference on the bottom line. Possibly it might even benefit them not to be wasting engineering resources on a very slow selling product line and shift those resources to things that are selling like hot cakes.
Wait, did you just call moving from a cooperative multi-tasking system with a GUI front-end that required clicking to get anything accomplished to a full-blown Unix system with a complex display PDF UI sub-system "dumbing down" ?
If anything OS X was a huge step forward over the Classic Mac OS which was really outdated.
I think you need to look up what "dumbing down" means.
OS 9 had some features which were not in the first release of OS X. Dumbing down certainly is the incorrect word but it had missing stuff at first and in upcoming releases those holes were plugged hastily.
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I always wondered if Apple actually sold any of the single socket Mac Pro's beginning with 2009. The 2500$ Mac Pro I bought in 2008 performs better than the current single socket low end model, which sells for approximately the same price. So in 3 years the Mac Pro 2500$ can buy actually lost performance.
And that's just game creation. I bet most of the iOS apps are developed on white MacBooks atm. I know at least 4 developer friends who purchased the cheapest mac just to develop for iOS in the last 2 years.