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The iPod Halo effect excuse is done and gone. Has been for well over a year now since the transition to Intel was complete. Of course iPods still contribute heavily to Apple's bottom line, but not like they did from 2003-2006 where Apple's computer line was gimped.

Fact of the matter is that people have been switching from windows pc's to Macs for over a year now for ONE reason: because they are NOT windows pc's.



Macs are outselling windows pc's by 3:1.

It has EVERYTHING to do with computers at this point in time.



Wow. I haven't heard the "Macs just look pretty" argument for a couple of years now since a large part of the public has figured out that having a computer that looks so much better AND works so much better is the reason that windows users are switching to Macs by the hundreds of thousands year over year.



Exactly. As I've said for years now, "It takes intelligence to focus and streamline processes and in Apple's case, products. However, any idiot can make things that can be easy difficult... microsoft and windows pc manufacturers have proven that."

It's like if I had a choice between buying a refrigerator that I had to constantly tweak according to various factors (how much food is in it, what kind of food is in it, did my removing any of that food "destabilize" the fridge and do I have to "optimize" it to get it back to it's original state, what's the temperature outside, etc.) and choosing one that takes that all into account for me so that all I have to know is that it "just works".

Macs "just work".

Filed under "Wishful thinking".
 
Macs are outselling windows pc's by 3:1.


Uh, what are you smoking? Can I have some as it must be great sh*t if you are seeing such BS numbers....

I think you're confusing growth rate with sales.... macs have a LONG way to go to sell 3x the number of pcs....
 
The Mini is a great computer for email, web, media playing, etc.
As a bonus it has a slick design and is totally unobtrusive.

The Mini is not the answer for those of us (myself included) looking for a mid-range tower / headless iMac. The fact that with a little tweaking it could be is why there are so many negatives responses. It's time to face the facts the mini is a dumping ground for Macbook parts and always will be. As long as the lower end MB has a combo drive so will the lower end Mini.

If all you care about is function the mini is way overpriced, but it scores major points for form. And at least for us that plus the simplicity and security of the OS made it worth picking up a while ago for the family computer in the den.

As to why Apple should make a headless iMac / mid range tower / Cube:
My work/play/digital darkroom Linux/XP box is long in the tooth and I'd like to replace it with a Mac. Yes in the last 5 years I have upgraded /replaced the GPU, RAM, CPU, and added a few PCI cards (TV tuner, Firewire and better network card). The idea that "nobody does this" is rubbish.
While the new iMac looks great and has enough RAM/CPU to spark my interest, I'm still paying for a 24" monitor I don't need(can't get the faster processor in the 20" & I currently have a very nice 20" wide-screen and 19" reg flat pannels), and I'm stuck with a video card I'm not that psyched about. I could go Pro, but then it's bulky, has more processor than I need, and no remote
 
Mac mini more popular than expected?

I ordered an updated mini shortly after the UK store came back up and was given an expected delivery date of the 9th Aug. I've now had a revised ship date email:

"The demand for the product you ordered has been higher than anticipated. We are shipping as quickly as possible, but cannot meet the dispatch date we previously estimated for you. We now expect to dispatch your order by 13.08.2007."

Anyone else got this?
 
well I was hoping for duel link DVI, to drive a 30" panel, other than that I'm not too bothered, but the lack fo thats a deal breaker for me.

it was going to be duel role, firstly running in the loft as a server for itunes folders and other such documents. also allowing the playback of said media in the loft.

second role was running parallels to allow one very specific set of software, to control a lenz DCC system via a USB interface.

the idea was to stick with the mac, backup the config files from the VM, and then if anything nuked it.. just copy it from a backup.

I wanted a mini since its small and runs OSX, the same as my main machine, windows is just for one program.. and that doesn't run on linux under wine so a small 'PC' with linux was out..

pity but I guess I'll have to wait some more. I need the screen res of a 30" panel, a 24" just isn't big enough.

double pity since the metalic box would look good alongside the lenz gear it would be controlling.. not that I'd see it much.. the other huge advantage is its small size means it would fit behind the monitor...
 
The Mac mini is not dead

The Mac mini is neither dead nor an unwanted stepchild, but is a valued member of the Mac family. It is due to circumstances beyond Apple's control that the mini went without an update for so long and I will tell you why. When Apple moved to Intel processors the Mac mini, iBook, and PowerBook already existed so there wasn't much they could do so they did what they could.

Initially the MacBook Pro got the Core Duo, the Mac mini got a Core Solo and a Core Duo, and the MacBook got the Core Duo making all three lines 32-bit. The Mac mini got the first update which eliminated the Core Solo, but kept it at 32-bit. The MacBook Pro got the next update with the Core 2 Duo and the MacBook followed a month later getting the Core 2 Duo making Apple's portables 64-bit, leaving the Mac mini as the only Mac with a 32-bit processor.

Apple was now free to work on differentiating the MacBook and MacBook Pro even more than it already was in their next update by putting Santa Rosa in the MacBook Pro, but not the MacBook. Both lines got 802.11n, making the Mac mini fall even further behind the portables, the MacBook got faster processors, and the 15" MacBook Pro got LED. Now that the three lines have a clear separation of features the Mac mini will get regular updates. Let us recap where we were, are, and are going:

Previously:
MacBook Pro - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11g
MacBook - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11g
Mac mini - 65nm Core Duo, 802.11g

Currently:
MacBook Pro - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n, Santa Rosa
MacBook - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n
Mac mini - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11g

Next update:
MacBook Pro - 45nm "Penryn", 802.11n, Santa Rosa
MacBook - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n, Santa Rosa
Mac mini - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n

Update after next:
MacBook Pro - 45nm "Penryn", 802.11n, next chipset version (quad-core CTO)
MacBook - 45nm "Penryn", 802.11n, Santa Rosa
Mac mini - 65nm Core 2 Duo, 802.11n, Santa Rosa
 
Now that the three lines have a clear separation of features the Mac mini will get regular updates.

Now, this is the kind of logic I that I said was confusing me earlier: putting the mini, MB, and MBP in the same line up. One's a desktop the other two are notebooks, why is it necessary to do a separation of features between the mini and the MacBooks when there is already the built-in differentiation of having to plug a keyboard, a mouse, a power source, and a monitor into the mini? Why not discuss the need to differentiate the Mac Pro with the MBP, while we're at it...

Now that being said, perhaps there could be some argument that a desktop could cannibalize notebook sales, but I'm not sure it would amount to much. Hmm, actually I don't know, maybe Apple just wants to sell laptops and all-in-ones... better margins for them, perhaps? Since Apple hasn't innovated on its displays for some time, and there's no more external iSight, there could be some truth to that.

Oh well.
 
I was previously fretting over whether to get a Mini or go the whole hog and get an iMac. Here's why.

Currently living with parents. No plans to move out. (Don't judge - anyone who knows about housing in the UK will sympathise.)

This leaves me with the 2 locations I can inhabit:
* A corner of our "computer room" where I can just fit a desk and my PC (dumping it for a Mac is out of the question, I use it for online gaming) and a superb 1440x900 LCD. There's not really room for anything else.

* My bedroom. 10ft x 6ft with a massive chunk taken up by the hot water boiler (aka airing cupboard). There's room for a bed, a very small wardrobe, and a very small desk, which can accommodate a multi-purpose LCD (TV and monitor), mini hifi, PS2, Xbox, and I've somehow crammed the second PC tower underneath it. (There is definitely NOT room for a Mac Pro there, mini tower at best).

I currently use an old G4 1.33 12" Powerbook for my Mac needs.

There's no way in hell I can fit an iMac in either of those places without sacrificing things, and I don't want to sacrifice any of the above (basically the two screens - I need one for TV, and the other for the PC). A Mini is literally the only option, other than a new portable... and I prefer a portable to stay, y'know, portable. I want a desktop Mac to complement the Powerbook, not something to replace it. This thing will go anywhere.

However my parents recently offered to swap over the "computer" room and my bedroom, so I'd basically have twice the space, at the least. However IF this happens (and it's a big IF with my folks) it'd take at least 6 months to organise, shift junk, decorate, and do the move. There's like 20 years of accumilated junk in that comp room. But when it's all done, you can be damn sure I'd want a *decent* mac in there as well as the PC, and would be kicking myself for getting the Mac Mini.

And then I remembered that Macs hardly depreciate at all. I could get a Mac Mini now (well, at the end of the month) and if the move goes ahead or it turns out to be junk? No problem! EBay, probably lose £100 max, no problemo at all!

But I probably won't regret it. You rarely get a computer that small, other than a laptop, and it'll have many many uses.
 
Now, this is the kind of logic I that I said was confusing me earlier: putting the mini, MB, and MBP in the same line up. One's a desktop the other two are notebooks, why is it necessary to do a separation of features between the mini and the MacBooks when there is already the built-in differentiation of having to plug a keyboard, a mouse, a power source, and a monitor into the mini? Why not discuss the need to differentiate the Mac Pro with the MBP, while we're at it...

Now that being said, perhaps there could be some argument that a desktop could cannibalize notebook sales, but I'm not sure it would amount to much. Hmm, actually I don't know, maybe Apple just wants to sell laptops and all-in-ones... better margins for them, perhaps? Since Apple hasn't innovated on its displays for some time, and there's no more external iSight, there could be some truth to that.

Oh well.
When the Mac mini first came out the high-end model cost $699 and the high-end iBook cost $1299. Both used the same processor speed, had a SuperDrive, came with 512MB RAM, but the Mac mini had an 80GB hard drive while the iBook had a 60GB hard drive. Because the specs were so close people were saying the mini was just an iBook without the monitor and keyboard, but with a $600 difference. I believe the major argument was the iBooks should have been a lot cheaper because it shouldn't cost $600 for a 14" monitor and keyboard, "the only difference" between the two. Keeping the Mac mini a feature or two behind the MacBook drives home the point it is an entry-level Mac and doesn't have the latest and greatest components.
 
Let us know how it performs in comparison - I'm looking to do exactly the same thing (I have a 1.33 G4 12" Powerbook too, and I think it's pitifully slow), I'm curious how much faster it feels if any, when it comes to day-to-day stuff.

Is the Intel graphics chip actually worse than the NVidia Go5200 that's in the Powerbook? I do very very little gaming on a Mac (got a PC for that), but I've been known to run World of Warcraft (amazingly operates quite smoothly on that old PB) and Second Life (slideshow, but it runs)

Will do (when it arrives). A little surprised to hear you think the 1.33 12" is that slow. I have 1.25GB RAM and a 7200rpm drive in mine and while it's not a speed demon (obviously), it does a good job keeping up with what I use it for in the lab (web, e-mail, Word, Excel, Papers, a few Java microscopy apps, various random Perl scripts and MySQL stuff). Maybe I've just got low expectations. You develop those after working in research for a while :rolleyes:

If someone else doesn't do a WoW benchmark on the mini before I get it, I'll install it and give it a run. I think your allusion is probably correct, ie: as wretched as the GMA950 is, could it *really* be any worse than the FX5200 in the 12" PowerBook? I guess at least the FX5200 has 64MB of dedicated VRAM and the GMA950 steals some of the main system RAM. Anyway. We shall see.
 
Will do (when it arrives). A little surprised to hear you think the 1.33 12" is that slow. I have 1.25GB RAM and a 7200rpm drive in mine and while it's not a speed demon (obviously), it does a good job keeping up with what I use it for in the lab (web, e-mail, Word, Excel, Papers, a few Java microscopy apps, various random Perl scripts and MySQL stuff). Maybe I've just got low expectations. You develop those after working in research for a while :rolleyes:

If someone else doesn't do a WoW benchmark on the mini before I get it, I'll install it and give it a run. I think your allusion is probably correct, ie: as wretched as the GMA950 is, could it *really* be any worse than the FX5200 in the 12" PowerBook? I guess at least the FX5200 has 64MB of dedicated VRAM and the GMA950 steals some of the main system RAM. Anyway. We shall see.
The FX5200 does have dedicated T&L and shader hardware though.

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/games/mac_wow_performance.html
 
This makes no sense, did Apple raise the price on the Mini refurbs? This was $479 on Tuesday... now it is back to the price before Apple released C2D mini??

Refurbished Mac mini 1.66GHz Intel Core Duo
512MB memory
80GB hard drive
SuperDrive (DVD+R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel GMA 950 graphics processor with 64MB of DDR2 memory
Learn More
• Save 19% off the original price
Original price: $799.00
Your price: $649.00

Estimated Ship:
3-5 business days
Free Shipping
 
Because the specs were so close people were saying the mini was just an iBook without the monitor and keyboard, but with a $600 difference. I believe the major argument was the iBooks should have been a lot cheaper because it shouldn't cost $600 for a 14" monitor and keyboard, "the only difference" between the two. Keeping the Mac mini a feature or two behind the MacBook drives home the point it is an entry-level Mac and doesn't have the latest and greatest components.

I see what you're saying, but still disagree with your basic argument... hopefully in a nice way! :) Two major points:

One, costs are more than the sum of component costs. For example, in general notebooks are harder to design than desktops, even ones like the mini, because their operating conditions are more demanding and there are more components requiring tighter integration. So despite the "same" hardware components, Apple needs to invest more fixed cost in designing, testing, and manufacturing a notebook than it does a desktop.

Two, despite the fact that the hardware components might be the same, the mini and macbook are still in different market segments. You can charge $$$ more for a notebook because the market has proven that people will pay for the portability, built in-screen, etc of a laptop... this is true for both PCs and Macs. Successful companies don't price based just on cost, they price based on perceived value, and consumers will set their own limits for that.... which is why Macs in general are more expensive than PCs, black macbooks are more expensive than white, etc.

People looking to buy a macbook have a different set of criteria than people looking to buy a mini. Could there be some overlap? Sure, but I doubt it's anywhere near 100%. And if the difference in those segments is non-trivial, then there's not such a need for an engineered differentiation between a mini and a MacBook like you're suggesting: no matter what their components are, they're already differentiated. If anything, it would be the MacBook that could cannibalize mini sales, as it could do everything the mini can do and more! With the exception of size of course, which is no small value so to speak....

My guess is that Apple's decisions for the mini were along the lines of, "Look, we need to update the mini to run Leopard, we don't want to charge more than $799, we want to keep our profit margin at X%, we don't want to increase fixed cost via design of new motherboards, etc. so what features can we sell?"

And out came what we have now! Which has probably already cost me significant $$$ in lost productivity by writing about it so much :p
 
I don't think that this latest revision will run leopard any better than the last version of the mini, except for the modest speed bump of the processor upgrade. Still, nothing has really changed in the architecture that will allow it to take advantage of the memory addressing capabilities of a true 64 bit system.
 
I don't think that this latest revision will run leopard any better than the last version of the mini, except for the modest speed bump of the processor upgrade. Still, nothing has really changed in the architecture that will allow it to take advantage of the memory addressing capabilities of a true 64 bit system.

Well, if true then that corrects a misunderstood assumption on my part: that the 64bitness of Leopard would lead to performance improvements on 64bit machines. :)

But what does this page mean then, http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/technology/64bit.html

64-Bit. Advanced precision in one OS.

Leopard delivers 64-bit power in one, universal OS. Now the Cocoa application frameworks, as well as graphics, scripting, and the UNIX foundations of the Mac, are all 64-bit. And since you get full performance and compatibility for your 32-bit applications and drivers, you don’t need to update everything on your system just to run a single 64-bit application.

Admittedly, I may have already passed the point of not knowing what I'm talking about, but I thought 64 bit meant more than just addressing advantages too... 64 bit arithmetic for one. Perhaps a greater number of speedy core registers to hold data in (rather than swap out to cache)?

That's it, I've definitely passed my point of ignorance.
 
Cache difference?

1.83GHz Mac mini (MB138LL/A) 2.0GHz Mac mini (MB139LL/A)
Processor 1.83GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
L2 cache 2MB shared 4MB shared

How much difference (now, and with the next OSX) will the cache make?

If I missed this in discussion, sorry, pointer please to any comments.
 
Let me see if I can help on the 64-bit aspect. My understanding is that 64-bit only allows the OS to address more than 4-gb of ram. that's it. If you don't have more than 4gb of ram in your computer, 64-bit will not make any difference in performance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64-bit#Memory_limitations

Actually, I don't think that's entirely accurate, 64 bit computing means more than just increasing your address space.

Your CPU instructions are now 64 bit rather than 32 bit, which could offer some advantages. Your registers (the fastest memory storage in a computer) are also 64 bit, which means if you need to do calculations with really large numbers (larger than 2^32, perhaps for some heavy video encoding) then you can do it directly in the registers without having to use multiple registers for overflow (to carry lots of 1's) or to swap out to cache, which both hurt performance. There's also supposedly double the number of registers in the Core 2 Duo too, which should give performance enhancements in both 32bit or 64bit applications. Finally, I imagine addressing large amounts of virtual memory (HD based) becomes easier with a 64bit processor, but I'm not sure.

The question is whether or not all that really matters to the day to day operation of Leopard. The increased number of registers would, but if you're not using Leopard for heavy video encoding or the like (and hey, this is the mini we're talking about) then maybe the rest doesn't matter much in typical usage.

I did study 64 bit computing years ago, but it's all mixed up in my head!
 
1.83GHz Mac mini (MB138LL/A) 2.0GHz Mac mini (MB139LL/A)
Processor 1.83GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
L2 cache 2MB shared 4MB shared

How much difference (now, and with the next OSX) will the cache make?

If I missed this in discussion, sorry, pointer please to any comments.
It'll be much faster in addition to the clock speed. More data can be stored on the CPU instead of moving to the slower RAM.
 
Cache

Thanks. That's what I thought. I wondered why I hadn't seen the 2 vs 4meg cache mentioned anywhere, and I don't know if there's always been a difference in cache size between the two price levels.

Does it vary with the chip CPU?

I just happened on the difference in cache described here:
http://support.apple.com/specs/macmini/Mac_mini_Mid_2007.html

Another question -- are there cooler, as well as faster, CPUs that can drop into the new Mini models? I gather development on that line has stopped, is a best-of-the-litter model out? Might just go ahead and buy it if so.

I know the mini's not the _best_ box to upgrade. But short of Apple's pricey boxcar-sized models, well, the mini's looking okay.

To frame the upgrade/cpu question: My 2000 "Pismo" has an aftermarket G3 900mhz CPU, better hard drives, and better RAM (turned out the original Apple-installed RAM caused crashes for three years! I dumped it after AppleCare ended, and my problems ended --- after five AppleCare Vacations that never found the problem).
 
Thanks. That's what I thought. I wondered why I hadn't seen the 2 vs 4meg cache mentioned anywhere, and I don't know if there's always been a difference in cache size between the two price levels.

Does it vary with the chip CPU?

I just happened on the difference in cache described here:
http://support.apple.com/specs/macmini/Mac_mini_Mid_2007.html

Another question -- are there cooler, as well as faster, CPUs that can drop into the new Mini models? I gather development on that line has stopped, is a best-of-the-litter model out? Might just go ahead and buy it if so.

I know the mini's not the _best_ box to upgrade. But short of Apple's pricey boxcar-sized models, well, the mini's looking okay.

To frame the upgrade/cpu question: My 2000 "Pismo" has an aftermarket G3 900mhz CPU, better hard drives, and better RAM (turned out the original Apple-installed RAM caused crashes for three years! I dumped it after AppleCare ended, and my problems ended --- after five AppleCare Vacations that never found the problem).
The T7600 2.33 GHz (I posted this in this thread yesterday!)

It's $600 of painful warranty voiding goodness.
 
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