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Apple Refusing Service on Hacked iPhones?

PDE said:
My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.
Click to expand...

I guess you are not in business. Your implication is that "open" means free. You also seem to ignore the fact that there are imposed restrictions on Apple to keep some things locked. In any case, Apple has every right to make its products closed. No one has a right to expect otherwise, though you may want to.

Your use of arrogance suggests a strong anti-Apple bias, since you cite no example of that behaviour as you assume we all "know" about Apple's arrogance-- I guess!!!

It's true, consumers want Rolls-Royces for Hyundai prices... but, that is not how it is and Apple is going to do what it has to to remain competitive while not giving away the farm. As a stock-holder, I couldn't be happier with their general direction but I am concerned a little about some of their ham-fisted behaviour- as in the iPhone pricing- but hey, no one is asking me, or anyone else to buy Apple. It is all voluntary and in that regard you, the consumer, are more or less on their terms.

The EU is no paragon of fairness either. They use political bullying of companies to win votes... they are only your friend if you like to see companies thumped so you can have your own "cheap??" way!!!

Pounding Apple is surely the best way to make certain new and better products come out of the company -- it is guaranteed by some bureaucrat in Brussels, fer shure!!!
 
PDE said:
No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.
Click to expand...

That is the biggest amount of bull I have heard in quite some time. Apple even addressed this a week or so ago and said they wouldn't directly go after hackers or the software makers, but if one of their updates happens to effect a hack, then so be it. How exactly is that line of thinking the same as "locking people in a system". They have always been good to the hackers, thats why people love buying their products, because their is freedom.

Their software has always been extremely open to hacks. They even recommend certain hacks. You are way off base on this one.

And if you haven't noticed, their growth is just now starting to pick up steam. They are only going up from here. And if they do fail, it will be from their products, not their "arrogance".
 
I'd say this falls into the category of common sense. Unless the problem was a physical defect, I would not expect Apple to be very interested in servicing my phone, being that it's hacked. That being said, I can flash it back to its original condition in a matter of minutes. If that doesn't fix the problem then I would expect them to service it, since it would be a matter of faulty hardware.
 
bretm said:
That trend is what has made windows a never ending crappier user experience and the Macintosh and iPhone a better and better user experience. It's also the reason Macintosh sales are growing every year. It's no monopoly and extremely far from it. They are far from any sort of world computer domination. They are a small subset that make better more elegant product for exactly the reasons you are specifying. Maybe it will put them out of business someday. I doubt it. But I for one will enjoy their hardware and software designs while they're with us that's for sure.
Click to expand...

Look, I agree that Apple provides the best computer experience and that, in part, it's because they control things the way they do. I've been an Apple user since the early 1990s and have had most of their computers, run all their operating systems and am as loyal a customer as one can find. However, I really don't like the trend I'm seeing in terms of how they are trying to lock people into their 'echo system'.

I'm generally happy with their OS, though I've found their laptop hardware to be subpar in quality control - I only stay with it because I love OS X. But the iphone lock makes me mad because the phone is not subsidised - if it were, I'd say fine and be understanding that Apple/ATT is making sure they get their money back, but it really isn't subsidised and to lock it in like this is bad for the customer. Maybe the reason people don't care so much here is that they're not travellers and don't see why having a local sim would be important (AGAIN, mainly so that people you know abroad don't have to call internationally to reach you!).

Anyway, I'm going to stop here. I have an iphone which I'm happy with. I unlocked it with software and am running it on ATT's network, albeit without the dataplan. I'm quite satisfied, even though I'd like to know that hardware issues would be covered under warranty by Apple if they are not related to the sofware unlock. Other than that, I've never liked a phone so much.
 
PDE said:
...the warranty does not apply if damage is caused by operating the product outside the intended use as described by Apple...

...Can somebody tell me where it says that unlocking will void the warranty?
Click to expand...

You answered your own question. The intended use, as described by Apple, is that you use the phone on AT&T's network.
 
gkarris said:
I was about to say...

Do it this way, just make sure you take your rogue SIM out and reset the iPhone...

I have my old phone handy just in case...
Click to expand...


Thanks, I'll keep that in mind if I ever have to send it in for service...

zombitronic said:
You answered your own question. The intended use, as described by Apple, is that you use the phone on AT&T's network.
Click to expand...

Yes, but it clearly says that the warranty does not cover DAMAGE if it is the result of the item being used wrongly. What if it is not? What if it is the result of Apple's hardware failing?

mrrydogg said:
That is the biggest amount of bull I have heard in quite some time. Apple even addressed this a week or so ago and said they wouldn't directly go after hackers or the software makers, but if one of their updates happens to effect a hack, then so be it. How exactly is that line of thinking the same as "locking people in a system". They have always been good to the hackers, thats why people love buying their products, because their is freedom.

Their software has always been extremely open to hacks. They even recommend certain hacks. You are way off base on this one.

And if you haven't noticed, their growth is just now starting to pick up steam. They are only going up from here. And if they do fail, it will be from their products, not their "arrogance".
Click to expand...

Maybe I am off base. I do realise that many other companies are much worse, but Apple is becoming more and more like MS and that worries me.
 
PDE said:
Maybe I am off base. I do realise that many other companies are much worse, but Apple is becoming more and more like MS and that worries me.
Click to expand...

I understand...but I think they are just very much in the public eye right now and have had a couple decisions backfire that have been magnified.

If we know Jobs at all, its that he definitely will not go the MS way. At least in terms of how his business is perceived. That being said, Apple's goal is to dominate your electronic and computer world.

The Apple doesn't fall far from the tree sometimes! :)
 
To everybody:

I'm sorry if I got carried away here. I really love the iphone, but believe it should be unlocked and that Apple has chosen the wrong path here with locking it down. At the end of the day, it's just a ****ing phone and it really doesn't matter either way. The discussions has brought up lots of emotions that have little to do with the phone, and more to do with views of business, society and the relationship between individuals and large corporations. I think it's all an interesting discussion, but I'm going to stop here because I don't really want to keep leading the discussion astray with my political views.

Let's all enjoy apple products and the iphone!
 
PDE said:
Yes, but it clearly says that the warranty does not cover DAMAGE if it is the result of the item being used wrongly. What if it is not? What if it is the result of Apple's hardware failing?
Click to expand...

Try again.

This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (b) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire,
earthquake or other external causes; (c) to damage caused by operating the product outside the permitted or intended uses described by Apple; (d)
to damage caused by service (including upgrades and expansions) performed by anyone who is not a representative of Apple or an Apple Authorized
Service Provider (“AASP”); (e) to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple; (f)
to consumable parts, such as batteries, unless damage has occurred due to a defect in materials or workmanship; (g) to cosmetic damage, including but
not limited to scratches, dents and broken plastic on ports; or (h) if any Apple serial number has been removed or defaced.
Click to expand...
There's no ambiguity there.

If you hack your iPhone at all, you void your warranty. Period.

Whether or not you find a benevolent Apple Store employee is another matter.
 
Twinkie said:
Try again.

There's no ambiguity there.

If you hack your iPhone at all, you void your warranty. Period.

Whether or not you find a benevolent Apple Store employee is another matter.
Click to expand...

Yes, you're right. It is clear. Thanks.
 
Wow!

I am constantly amazed at the way the people on this forum are so strongly (even angrily?) against things like hacking the iPhone! It almost sounds like many of you have gone beyond making a personal judgement call to not unlock your phone, and now you actually are mad at the immorality of people who make the alternative choice.

I agree that you would have to be pretty dumb to take a tmobile sim into an apple store and expect them to help you, but come on! Don't say "Good for Apple for catching him!" Is the problem that you are jealous of the benefits you aren't getting by following the rules? For God's sake who cares?

My iPhone has an eBook reader, a full NES emulator, flashcards I study with, Tetris, pseudo-GPS, and an upgraded calculator --and I've only been using it a week! Is it so wrong that I wanted to add a few more programs? Do I deserve to be blacklisted? I paid for my phone, I own it, and I'm simply using it in the way I want.

I'll be sad to have to wipe the memory before I take it in for service if that ever becomes necessary... In my experience most cell phones don't last forever, and highly complex ones are even more delicate, so it's probably just matter of time for us all.
 
All new ground...

Well, Apple wanted to get into the mobile phone business...

So many questions, so little answers...

What about laws saying you must unlock the phone? Steve is going against this.

Also, what about, say, a German user on T-Mobile moves to the UK and just does a change of address, where there is T-Mobile but the iPhone provider is O2? His iTunes account sees him as now a UK customer, but his iPhone is on T-Mobile, not O2. I guess it'll see that it was legally activated, but what's to stop Germans to selling to T-Mobile users in the UK?

Apple will have to figure all this out. I guess they're too busy right now with the newer iPhone and Touch screen issues...
 
KindredMAC said:
If the turd brought it in thinking he was going to be thought of as "cool" for unlocking his iPhone, he is beyond retarded.
Click to expand...

As opposed to someone who bought an iPhone thinking he was going to be cool? How retarded are those people? :rolleyes:

KindredMAC said:
That's why I do not hack OS X or anyother Mac product. Hacking something to think that you are actually making it better is such a PC mindset.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
 
Fast Shadow said:
That's why I said "not exactly" :)
Click to expand...
Oh, I know.

I was just saying that in car terms, bringing the Magnusson-Moss Act is kind of like demanding that Ford fixes your car after you've been using Everclear instead of gasoline :)


alexbo said:
I am constantly amazed at the way the people on this forum are so strongly (even angrily?) against things like hacking the iPhone!
Click to expand...
I think people are railing more against the whining than anything else.

"I took a pee on Apple's warranty terms, and they had the cajones to tell me I'm not covered under their warranty!!1! WELL GUYS, LOOKS LIKE APPLE'S SCREWING US AGAIN! I'm getting on the phone with my lawyer, and the BBB, and the Attorney General's office, and I'm sending a very harshly-worded e-mail to steve@mac.com :mad:"
 
severe said:
Makes sense to me.
Click to expand...

If you've got a bunch of dead pixels, or the backlight's gone sour, it doesn't make sense at all. That is obviously a hardware issue, and it shouldn't matter if it's hacked or if you're running Linux or even Windows 3.1 on the friggin thing, they should fix it.

Would you be OK if Apple refused to service your $3000 Mac Pro because you were running Linux on it? I see no difference..
 
alexbo said:
I am constantly amazed at the way the people on this forum are so strongly (even angrily?) against things like hacking the iPhone! It almost sounds like many of you have gone beyond making a personal judgement call to not unlock your phone, and now you actually are mad at the immorality of people who make the alternative choice.

I agree that you would have to be pretty dumb to take a tmobile sim into an apple store and expect them to help you, but come on! Don't say "Good for Apple for catching him!" Is the problem that you are jealous of the benefits you aren't getting by following the rules? For God's sake who cares?

My iPhone has an eBook reader, a full NES emulator, flashcards I study with, Tetris, pseudo-GPS, and an upgraded calculator --and I've only been using it a week! Is it so wrong that I wanted to add a few more programs? Do I deserve to be blacklisted? I paid for my phone, I own it, and I'm simply using it in the way I want.

I'll be sad to have to wipe the memory before I take it in for service if that ever becomes necessary... In my experience most cell phones don't last forever, and highly complex ones are even more delicate, so it's probably just matter of time for us all.
Click to expand...
I'm not against hacking at all... I'm just tired of all the whining and sense of "entitlement" that people seem to have. Bottom line, if you use the iPhone (or any product for that matter) outside of manufacturer specs, you shouldn't get upset if it breaks and they won't help you.
 
PDE said:
No, I don't care to invest money in this prediction. My point is that while the world as a whole is moving toward more open systems that allow consumers choice and freedom, Apple is moving toward an ever-more closed system that dictates how people should use their products. They want to completely lock people up in the system and people don't want to be locked up. This is not only related to the iphone, but also other products Apple makes (ipods, some of its software etc). When going against the overwhelming trend of consumers throughout the world, I do think Apple will have to pay a price. I do think that Apple's general arrogance is detrimental to its growth and while they may get away with it for a while in the U.S., I don't think other markets will be as easy.
Click to expand...

I think the argument overstates things quite a bit. One doesn't need an iPhone to have cellphone service. There are plenty of other competitive products on the market at all of the major providers. There also are "exclusive" agreements between the device makers and the service providers, so this deal is anything but unique. If you like a certain device, at some point, you need to go with the carrier who offers it.
 
alexbo said:
I am constantly amazed at the way the people on this forum are so strongly (even angrily?) against things like hacking the iPhone! It almost sounds like many of you have gone beyond making a personal judgement call to not unlock your phone, and now you actually are mad at the immorality of people who make the alternative choice.
Click to expand...

Yeah i don't get it either.
 
If you hack your iPhone and Apple blacklists your phone I say good for Apple because you need a reality check. The world does not revolve around you and thinking companies should suck up the cost of you doing what you want is absurd. You can claim "oh but its just a software hack!" all you want. The point is you modified a piece of equipment out of its original specs. The iPhone is not just a physical device, its a software and hardware item. Changing one part of it is just as risky as another. Take a look at Sony's PSP. People mod the @#!@ out of it. If it bricks because they put the wrong software on it, Sony won't fix it, why should they? You bought something that had a very specific advertised function and decided you wanted to use it for something else. That means you do not deserve to have it fixed. Its the chance you take by modding it. You don't like those chances, sign yourself up for AT&T and shut up already.

It would be like buying a kite and deciding to use it as a hang glider and then suing the manufacturer because it wouldn't support your weight and it ripped and they told you to take a hike when you asked them to fix it. I mean after all you bought it, you should be able to do what you want with it.
How about software mods that allow you to overclock your CPU in a windows PC. You did not change the hardware but you made it operate in a way thats different. Is the CPU vendor not entitled to tell you where to shove your useless processor?

Those examples sound stupid you say? They are no different than people who have hacked their iPhone and complain if Apple says too bad when it comes time to fixing it. Even the hacking guides will say "we take no responsibility if this kills your product, you have been warned.". Why then is it a surprise that the company that makes it has the same response?

Oh and for doubters: (following from the iPhone Software end user license agreement, the bolded parts are to point the important areas out.)

IMPORTANT: BY USING YOUR iPHONE, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY THE FOLLOWING APPLE AND THIRD PARTY TERMS:-
A. APPLE iPHONE SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
B. APPLE iTUNES STORE TERMS OF SERVICE
C. GOOGLE MAPS TERMS AND CONDITIONS
D. YOUTUBE TERMS AND CONDITIONS
E. NOTICES FROM APPLE

1. General The software (including Boot ROM code and other embedded software), documentation and any fonts that came with your iPhone, whether in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the "iPhone Software") are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License, and Apple
reserves all rights not expressly granted to you. The rights granted herein are limited to Apple's intellectual property rights in the iPhone Software and do not include any other patents or intellectual property rights. You own the media on which the iPhone Software is recorded but Apple and/or Apple's licensor(s) retain ownership of the iPhone Software itself.

2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions
(a) This License allows you to use the iPhone Software on a single Apple-labeled iPhone. This License does not allow the iPhone Software to exist on more than one Apple-labeled iPhone at a time, and you may not make the iPhone Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple devices at the same time. This License does not grant you any rights to use Apple proprietary interfaces and other intellectual property in the design, development, manufacture, licensing or distribution of third party devices and accessories for use with the iPhone. Some of those rights are available under a separate license from Apple. For more information, please email madeforipod@apple.com.
(b) With respect to updates to the iPhone Software that Apple may make available for download (“iPhone Software Updates”), this License allows you to download the iPhone Software Updates to update the software on any iPhone that you own or control. This License does not allow you to update iPhones that you do not control or own, and you may not make the iPhone Software Updates available over a network where it could be used by multiple devices or multiple computers at the same time. You may make one copy of the iPhone Software Updates stored on your computer in machine-readable form for backup purposes only; provided that the backup copy must include all copyright or other proprietary notices contained on the original.
(c) Except as and only to the extent permitted by applicable law, or by licensing terms governing use of open-sourced components included with the iPhone Software, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to derive the source code of, modify, or create derivative works of the iPhone Software, iPhone Software Updates, or any part thereof. Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the iPhone Software and iPhone Software Updates. If you breach this restriction, you may be subject to prosecution and damages. By storing content on your iPhone you are making a digital copy. In some jurisdictions, it is unlawful to make digital copies without prior permission from the rightholder. The iPhone Software and iPhone Software Updates may be used to reproduce materials so long as such use is limited to reproduction of noncopyrighted materials, materials in which you own the copyright, or materials you are authorized or legally permitted to reproduce. THE iPHONE SOFTWARE AND iPHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES ARE NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS, LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES OR OTHER EQUIPMENT IN WHICH THE FAILURE OF THE iPHONE SOFTWARE OR iPHONE SOFTWARE UPDATES COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.

And why is it people are upset with iPhone hackers? Because instead of working towards making better products, developing new software and hardware for people to use. Apple has to spend time trying to protect its products from people that think they should be changing it. A lot of people are tired of seeing companies like Apple have to waste resources and money trying to fix problems or covering the costs of peoples own stupidity and their refusal to take responsibility for their own actions. Instead of saying "I took the chance and modded my iPhone and it broke, oh well lesson learned" these modders are saying " I modded my phone and it broke it, Apple should fix it because they didn't design it to handle the software I forced onto it"

Hacking a product is a personal choice. I myself have hacked my PSP for personal reasons. If you want to, and it makes you enjoy your item more thats great. Just do not expect it fixed or complain that the company won't fix it. You make the choice to mod it, have the guts to stand by your choice. And from a troubleshooting standpoint saying but I restored it and so it must be Apple's product, thats not true in that no one knows what operating different software on a product may due to its hardware. Just like changing a setting in the bios of a PC to change the way the processor reads, may cause the processor to wear out faster.
 
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