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Not Happy

Just ordered a MBP really wish I was getting at least the 8x superdrive. A little frustrating as I am not sure what the real differences is (ok I do) but still would like to have the choice, and not have to spend the cash on something very close to consumer based model.
 
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Originally Posted by 2tallyAwesome View Post

The point is; that yes, it is your fault if you can't find a mac that suits your needs

In Soviet Russia computer plays you!

So we should change ourselves and our usage to suit Apples product range? That comment is beyond belief.


..............................................................
I agree that comment is beyond belief

Get real...this isn't the ONLY computer out there, and you aren't required to buy one. They offer products that they want to, and if you want to buy it, you can. They have no obligation to please every subset of the community just because they like to bitch online.

So yes, if you can't find a mac that fits your (cost/usage/spec) needs, then you have no right to bitch...just go buy a different computer.
 
Get real...this isn't the ONLY computer out there, and you aren't required to buy one. They offer products that they want to, and if you want to buy it, you can. They have no obligation to please every subset of the community just because they like to bitch online.

So yes, if you can't find a mac that fits your (cost/usage/spec) needs, then you have no right to bitch...just go buy a different computer.

Sorry, people have the right to bitch about anything. Just as anyone has the right to sue you for absolutely no legitimate reason.

The good question is what good it will do.
 
"Fat" 35% margins? Sarcasm or disbelief? Read the link I posed earlier, that number is directly from the Apple Shareholders meeting. Granted 35.1% margins are gross margins across all business units averaged, and not Macbook specific, but they do act as an indication.

"Fat"? Not exactly. Out of line for industry norms? Absolutely. I wouldn't define them as "fat" though....good on Apple (or any company) for commanding such a premium. I'm quite sure the board rooms of HP/Dell/Acer/Gateway are filled with talk of envy.

Not really, since you can't live much below 20-25% margins when you're a manufacturer. See sites like bizstats and take a look at operating margins. The ones that are consistently below that are retail and wholesalers.

Too, that 35% is a blip upwards, coming at the tail end of a product cycle; it'll go downward when new models and technology come in.

And averaging across business units is a bit misleading in that this includes software units, where margins are 50-70%--that's a business unit certainly not shared by Dell and Acer (who ARE in the 20-25% area) (though its certainly true that Apple makes the greatest amount of gross revenue and profit from hardware).

The point is that people are looking at economic figures out of context, without understanding how diddling with it is going to affect the company.
 
Pretty much commodity-like "Variable" costs.



The general approach will be the same, but not every step.

Where you get into retooling is that every piece of any sort of machinery that touches any aspect of that motherboard is going to have to be checked to see if its actions are EXACTLY the same. Where its not, it needs to (at best) be reprogrammed or (at worst) completely replaced. This means that if a row of components gets shifted over 1mm, all of the 'pic' heads that install those items need to be reprogrammed, etc.

Since motherboards aren't my thing, I'm going to pick something that seems simple: let's say that a new mounting screw has been added, and this screw happens to be a different size than the rest:

  • Change in screw supplier / inventory tracking & control
  • Change in a job description ('keeper the new screws')
  • Add a new station location on the assembly line
  • Add material hander (pull from transporting system into station)
  • New power drop to run the new equipment
  • (+Check building power)
  • A new Vibratory Bowl Feeder (VBF) to supply screw to the line
  • A new VBF bow design for orientating the different screw size
  • A new VBF supply chute design to deliver it down to the picker
  • New power drop to run the new equipment
  • (+Check building power)
  • New (maybe just updated) 'pic' head for the assember machine
  • (+Check to see if the assembler has the free time to add this task)
  • New programming for what the assembler's supposed to do with it
  • (+Check programming if borrowing pic time; free for other tasks)
  • Return material handling (return to transporting system)
  • Document all production line changes
  • Get safety release certifications for all the changes
  • Establish employee training plan
  • Conduct employee training
  • New QA check

This is just off the cuff; the full checklist will probably be twice as long. After you have this checklist, you can then go and price out each item on it. Overall, I'd SWAG this one little item as probably around $300K by the time you're done.



Since its the P Socket, the procedure's going to be slightly different. You'll need to make sure that the machine to do this task has the right tool to grab the processor...after verifying that the supply racks are okay...and then go into the specifics as to how the two sockets are different and what the machine needs to do in order to do the assembly correctly. Once its all set up, it should run fine and probably not have a significant change in variable costs...but it does still need to be all checked over to be sure.


In general, the thing to remember is that the way that we drive down costs today is through automation, and that while robots do a very good job in these repetitive tasks, even the smallest things throw a spanner into the works and will screw up a line...checking out and being explicit for every single one of these details is where your tooling & retooling costs come from.


-hh
I knew keeping things grossly simple would let you chime in.

Napa had Robson flash? I don't think so.
Santa Rosa does. :p

You still get the components from Intel.
 
If you've been okay with waiting for 10 months, then it's likely that you don't really NEED a new machine, you just want one. If you really needed a new machine, you probably would've gotten a MBP with the 256mb video card in it.

Nope, I do need one, but I've just kept making do, and making do... I really thought there'd be something by last November.

The Macbook Pro dosen't suit my needs or I probably would have bought one months ago (probobly last year even).

Okay, so the Intel graphics in the MacBook can't play the latest games. But it can handle anything else I can throw at it with ease. That's pretty impressive to me, as a creative person.

I've heard-I don't know if this is true-but I've heard it can't really handle a large external monitor as well as it should (which is my primary configuration I'll be using a notebook in).

And another thing: I would have more respect for your position on the Intel graphics if you were complaining that you couldn't MAKE cool 3D games on the MacBook (but then I'd tell you to throw down for a Mac Pro). Then, at least, you'd be doing something creative with your time! ;)

Hopefully you're joking, but I don't see how that's funny...

I agree with many of the posters here. The MacBook wasn't meant for gamers. It was meant for people who want to use their laptops to make cool things like movies, podcasts, slide shows or even comic books. And guess what? The MacBook does that exceedingly well. Better than any PC with an awesome graphics card. And it has been wildly successful, a HUGE seller. It will continue to be a huge seller despite complaints from gamers.

As others have pointed out, not one person has actually expected the Macbook to turn into a gaming system-we just wanted something decent and low end in there.
 
It is hard for me to imagine anybody thinking of the MB as entry level. As you note it is very expensive for what you get.

I only use the term "entry level" because it is the least costly entrance into the Apple portable line.

This is one of the reasons I run Linux on my PC's. I was hoping that Apples previous releases of Intel hardware where demonstrating that Apple as a company gets it as far as hardware and value goes. Frankly this MB release shows clearly that Apple has regressed to its G4 mentality. That has disappointed me deeply. So I have to think seriously about other hardware and a Linux install.

The problem for me is that with the people I am trying to help, Linux is too technical. They must either stick with Windows or go with a solid OS with a good UI--like OS X.

I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the BFE, where is it?

You will find it in Wikipedia--it is vulgar for Butt F***ing Egypt = no man's land.

As far as future proof I'm not sure much security there is possible out to 5 years. If I was to look for a machine to run Linux I'd go for a completely Intel based machine as the best current bet. A SR based machine with an X3100 would be the best bet there, though you may be on the bleeding edge for X drivers.

Not much is future proof anymore, but I can't suggest buying hardware, the graphics for which are already two years old. Drivers can be updated.


Exactly!! I feel we think pretty much alike here. The lack of anything remotely like a reasonable update of the MB takes it out of the running for many of us.

Dave
 
I actually think this update is VERY reasonable.

Think about it, the Socket P line of Core 2 processors starts at 1.8Ghz, how is Apple going to justify putting in a processor that is 0.03ghz slower in an update to Joe Average (aka the average Mac user).

Upping the line up a notch is out of the question, because that bumps it to 2.0 and 2.2 ghz, which leaves no head room for the MBPs.

You guys are just too greedy and are expecting too much from Apple. They have their own precious market segmentation to protect you know. Not happy with it? Go Dell!
 
....

The 3100 would give "acceptable" graphics capabilities, and I would feel assured that Leopard would run adaquately. I am not assured with 950, and wont be buying a MB until I see how Leopard runs on it (if it runs fine, I'll buy a MB with 950)

I would have tended to agree except for (the conclusion of) this article which discusses problem with video playback and 3D performance. If this is true, then there may be future MB problems if Apple decided to depend on Intel for its integrated graphics, specifically, Apple may be waiting for Intel to correct the driver problems and/or Apple may be looking for another graphics solution for the MB. Whichever, Apple is certain to use more 3D graphics and emphasize video playback, especially with Leopard, which is why I concur with your caution about buying the GMA 950 when it is unknown how well it will handle Leopard.
 
I actually think this update is VERY reasonable.

Think about it, the Socket P line of Core 2 processors starts at 1.8Ghz, how is Apple going to justify putting in a processor that is 0.03ghz slower in an update to Joe Average (aka the average Mac user).

I was figuring they'd just drop in 1.8 and 2GHz CPUs-basically the same clock speed (but actually better performance). I doubt anyone is going to care about that slightly slower lower-end chip. If they even notice, someone can just point out the faster FSB.

The more I think about it though, the more I think just using a Geforce 7400 would make more sense all around. I just didn't want to get my hopes up for a low end non-integrated GPU, and figured the newest Intel graphics were a sure thing for this upgrade.
 
Care to expound on that?

The biggest problem is the non user replaceable hard drive (at least not without taking the whole thing apart and voiding the warranty). When I get a notebook, first thing I'll do is swap out the hard drive, so I can swap back in the original if the system has a problem that needs to get sent out for a warranty repair. Can't really do that with the Macbook Pro.

Second issue is the GPU. The x1600 was low end when it showed up last year, and I'd really like something that would run today's games great, and have some future potential. Even still, I probably would have made do with it if not for the hard drive issue (though it is kind of an insult for a $2000-2800 laptop!)

I'll probably order the same day it comes out if the Macbook Pro fixes those issues (hopefully soon, so I can get it while I'm on vacation).
 
I haven't read all of the replies, but I've read more than enough to figure out that Apple may have been netter off not upgrading the MB. They were able to sweeten it a bit and the howls and screaming starts.

Sort of like giving your girlfriend or wife a dozen roses and getting yelled at because it wasn't two dozen roses. Then throws a bucket of cold water on you.

There will be some that believe that the MB should get SR before the MBP, but that's not going to happen. That left Apple in a position where they figured they could give the MB a bit of a bump, effectively lowering the prices of "last weeks" version. A nice gesture - just like the roses - but all most people can do is bitch.

Personally I'm impressed with the MB. A new one arrived from Apple on Tuesday - it's a warranty replacement - and even though it is "last weeks" version I like it better than my AL PB, both in terms of its design and performance. Unfortunately it is my wife's computer!

For those that are mad about the current version, wait until you'll be happy, or buy a PC.
 
Whats the HE discount? My educational store is showing £656.83 for the base model...

I'm happy with a CDRW builtin as I have an external DVDRW to use when required. So now i can max it out with the HDD and memory and have my first mac!! hoorayy!! i'm so excited!!

you can get the HE discount by accessing apple's website from your uni's computers or buy paying £10 for the student nus card which will give you access to it from home. i know the base macbook is about £600 with the HE discount (UK), so can someone please post the HE prices for all of the new macbooks?

also, you may not be able to use external DVDRW with macs i think... just find out more before you buy the base model.
 
I was figuring they'd just drop in 1.8 and 2GHz CPUs-basically the same clock speed (but actually better performance). I doubt anyone is going to care about that slightly slower lower-end chip. If they even notice, someone can just point out the faster FSB.

The trouble is for the kind of market they are targetting, it is much easier to get the buyer to ignore the faster FSB than to actually educate them about it.

Making a sale is not about education, it is simply making a sale.
 
you can get the HE discount by accessing apple's website from your uni's computers or buy paying £10 for the student nus card which will give you access to it from home. i know the base macbook is about £600 with the HE discount (UK), so can someone please post the HE prices for all of the new macbooks?

also, you may not be able to use external DVDRW with macs i think... just find out more before you buy the base model.

The prices quoted via the NUS link to the Apple UK site are:

13" 2.0GHz model - £601.60
13" 2.16GHz model - £713.23
13" 2.16GHz model (Black) - £816.63

I was looking at upgrading the hard drive to 160Gb and the RAM to 2Gb, which comes in at £850.70, but might do the hard drive myself and keep the stock drive as a spare for external use (Bootcamp?). Would love a MacBook Pro in all reality, but not sure I can justify spending over £1300 on, admitedly a better all round machine spec wise. Then again, the MacBook does what I need, and anything more can be left for my Imac at home. That said, would like to see better graphics hardware in the MacBook in the short term.
 
The prices quoted via the NUS link to the Apple UK site are:

13" 2.0GHz model - £601.60
13" 2.16GHz model - £713.23
13" 2.16GHz model (Black) - £816.63

I was looking at upgrading the hard drive to 160Gb and the RAM to 2Gb, which comes in at £850.70, but might do the hard drive myself and keep the stock drive as a spare for external use (Bootcamp?). Would love a MacBook Pro in all reality, but not sure I can justify spending over £1300 on, admitedly a better all round machine spec wise. Then again, the MacBook does what I need, and anything more can be left for my Imac at home. That said, would like to see better graphics hardware in the MacBook in the short term.

thanks for the prices :)
 
The trouble is for the kind of market they are targetting, it is much easier to get the buyer to ignore the faster FSB than to actually educate them about it.

Making a sale is not about education, it is simply making a sale.

Since when is it Apple's responsibility or any other companies for that matter, to educate the consumer?
 
I guess we Germans are quite happy with the updated Macbooks because each model now costs EUR 50 ($67) less than before. Prizing and specs are really competitive when compared to other 13" consumer laptops presently available in Germany. Most 13" laptops for EUR 1000 are even worse than the new 2Ghz Macbook (1.6 or 1.8 Ghz Core 2 Duo, 1 GB RAM, 80GB HD, Intel GMA 950). So the updated Macbooks don't look bad at all. Oh, but there's one thing I dislike: No superdrive in the 2Ghz model -- that's ridiculous IMHO.
 
MacBooks to be updated again soon?

I read:

<<“MacBook already offers some of the technologies available in Santa Rosa,” said Benjamin. “We decided with this update that we would add more value with processor speeds, RAM and hard drive space. We feel this is the prefect line-up for the Spring.”>>

Does this "for the Spring" comment imply that Apple are already planning to change the MacBook in the Summer... which is just around the corner?
 
I knew keeping things grossly simple would let you chime in.

As I said, motherboards aren't my thing. The point was that even something that appears to be very simple still requires a lot of steps to alter its mass production setup.

Now this page has an introduction on how a modern motherboard is made. It isn't complete, since they receive the etched/drilled circuit boad as a subcomponent. This means that someone else has already done "Step 0" redesign of its layout, built all the new etching masks, new drilling paths, etc, for each side/layer of the board. Similarly, they're receiving a lot of subcomponents on tape, which means that someone else has already incurred the expense of figuring out how to orientate each of these parts.

With the insight as to the level of detail that applies to any change in automation equipment, you can walk through this website's 20 pages of high-level discussion and identify a lot of the stuff that would have to be retooled. As a general rule of thumb, anytime you see any machine on any of these pages, there's going to be retooling change expenses that you'll have to capture to document the total production line change-over costs.


-hh
 
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