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Care to give references to scientific publications for that?

Standard physics. If you understand that all sound waves have the capability of interacting with each other you'll understand. All sound is air pressure variations on the ear.

Think two strobe lights blinking at different rates.

All surfers know this phenomenon. They evaluate waves. They call them "sets." Surfers know that waves coming from two different directions cause some waves to be bigger and some to be smaller. Depending on the periodicity of the two sets of waves sets can come every few minutes to 20 minutes or more. Surfers try to catch the larger waves of the sets generally and wait out the smaller waves.
 
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No one claiming stuff like this ever passed a blind-test, no one ever could even tell 256kb/s AAC files and a CD apart. Frequencies you don't hear don't alter the perception of frequencies you hear, that's audiophile mumbo-jambo.

*edit* Also, even higher or lower frequencies are probably not even recorded by a standard studio microphone in the first place, because recording equipment is based on scientific knowledge about acoustics as well.

You are not seeing the FULL picture.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/308mp3cd/index.html

What you are not understanding or hearing is harmonic interaction. Think of this as several out of phase strobe lights together. Now think of thousands of strobe lights which is essentially what you are hearing when you listen to digital files except you are hearing thousands of changes of air pressure.

Your brain is probably not used to hearing and DISCERNING the small differences. But consider this, brains grow new cells when you learn. In other words those of us who listen more intently probably have brains that decipher musical information more discretely.

Personally I can totally hear the difference between a 256 file and a CD. No contest. I don't hear it all the time, in other words just part of the time. I hear it in the imaging harmonics etc.

Listening and comparing short segments of a sound test are not adequate for comparison as the brain cannot remember and compare two segments of sound adequately. In other words if you sat me down and asked me to compare one segment to another I might not remember the first well enough to compare it to the second. This doesn't mean that I don't hear it, in long listening session I do hear it, particularly during certain passages.

I probably listen to different music than you. Everyone listens differently, for example I'm interested in microtonal music so I hear tuning differences more acutely than you do. In fact modern 12 tone music you listen to is "out of tune" but your ear has been trained to hear it in tune. Duke Ellington's trained ear listened to sound differently. Beethoven, who lost his hearing after the 6th symphony didn't hear at all, but he "heard" sound in his brain anyway, and some say "felt" sound through his skull by putting his head against his piano.

Your contention that studio mics don't pick up high and low frequencies is also flawed, depending on the mic. Mics pick up and transmit different frequencies at different rates, the graph isn't flat and it doesn't just abruptly end at either end. Mics also pick up sound from different directions differently, some just sound from the front, other from front and back, others are omni-directional.

In addition much of modern recording is done using synthesizers and software which have nearly unlimited abilities to produce frequencies above and below the threshold of hearing.

So you see your evaluations and others about "what we hear" are not really considering all the factors. Even double blind tests cannot be accurate when we are considering how the brain evaluates sound. One could say that some brains evaluate losslessly while others toss out information they cannot evaluate.
 
Dig it, I always am challenged by the choice of quality, I want the highest quality when I can obviously but am always too lazy to lower it when the streaming start messing up. Addressing this issue is one more first world problem solved :D
 
Why would Apple use FLAC when it already supports ALAC?

Although I'm a long time Apple user I really am distressed Apple is not supporting FLAC. Basically they want to control music sales. FLACs are open.

It would be a terrible shame if the computer business ever standardized on a closed source like Apple's. Fewer machines would be capable of playback.

Archive.org allows free downloads of legal music. Some of it is great. Anyone who likes the Grateful Dead should visit. Trent Reznor put his entire Ghosts I-IV album on archive at 24bit 96khz for anyone to download free of charge. How cool is that.

I'm also going to put in a plug for a talent worthy of more recognition:

http://www.archive.org/details/Transcendissonance

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for me nothing is ever gonna beat vinyl, its just far more epic

I used to think that too. I once had 20,000 records. But you know moving those beasts around... well you know.

I really think that 24bit files will change your attitude someday. Trust me they sound so damn good you won't believe it. I personally can't hear past 24bit 48khz. Some people say they can. But like I mentioned in the previous, Trent Reznors Ghosts I-IV is available at 24/96 right now, free AND legal:

http://www.archive.org/details/NineInchNailsGhostsI-Ivblu-ray24bit96khz

Try it out on your computer using headphones. This is the future for audiophiles IMHO. We are a small portion of the listening public, perhaps 5% or less. Most people are fine with mp3. They listen for different things.
 
Dolby Digital Plus! Its perfect for broadcast and supports 7.1 channels which AC-3 does NOT (thats not really too big of a deal BUT DD+ also has other great features).
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-digital-plus.html

No one claiming stuff like this ever passed a blind-test, no one ever could even tell 256kb/s AAC files and a CD apart. Frequencies you don't hear don't alter the perception of frequencies you hear, that's audiophile mumbo-jambo.

*edit* Also, even higher or lower frequencies are probably not even recorded by a standard studio microphone in the first place, because recording equipment is based on scientific knowledge about acoustics as well.

Hate to say it but even if you barely notice the difference more is better and can't hurt unless we are talking about size and bandwidth. That said I CAN tell the difference between 256kbps AAC and 1411.2 PCM. I can also tell the difference between 320kbps AC-3 and 1510kbps DTS when listening to movies in my home theater...that said I encode almost all my movies in 320kbps AC-3 for size matters and for the most part it sounds just fine...but if I were to get a new BluRay I would be pretty displeased if it didn't have TrueHD or Master Audio (though I don't need anything over 48-96khz sampling rate to be perfectly honest). Audiophiles may be crazy at times but you can't throw it all away.
 
Hmm, now we're getting into "streaming high def sound"? Isn't that the equivalent of a radio station pushing out the master signal from a cd? If I put the original cd in my car it would sound much better then the same original master over radio frequencies.

To the person that said they use their iPod for their home music...are you using the headphone jack for the output or the dock connector? You're not going to get that great of sound from it unless you bypass the DAC and send the digital signal over an appropriate medium. See the Wadia on crutchfield.

-Lawrence
 
Hmm, now we're getting into "streaming high def sound"? Isn't that the equivalent of a radio station pushing out the master signal from a cd? If I put the original cd in my car it would sound much better then the same original master over radio frequencies.


-Lawrence

Well considering this will be streaming the digital version of a lossless format - what your streamer receives will be an identical copy of what was sent. Any errors would simply be resent resulting in a perfect copy every time. At worst you would get skipping due to bandwidth issues - but that's what buffering is for.

The radio relation is not even close to being the same - maybe if the radio station was HD but then you'd have to worry about the codec they stream.

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Will my freshly minted ALAC copies be obsolete? legit, I just start the process last October. :/

It's fairly easy to convert from one lossless format to another - plenty of programs offer this and even transfer tags etc. There is no loss in quality - it would be like unzipping a file and using a different compression method like gzip, 7zip etc.
 
I really think that 24bit files will change your attitude someday. Trust me they sound so damn good you won't believe it. I personally can't hear past 24bit 48khz. Some people say they can. But like I mentioned in the previous, Trent Reznors Ghosts I-IV is available at 24/96 right now, free AND legal:

Thanks for posting that. Really digging it so far.
 
It's fairly easy to convert from one lossless format to another - plenty of programs offer this and even transfer tags etc. There is no loss in quality - it would be like unzipping a file and using a different compression method like gzip, 7zip etc.

Yeah, I know that, but won't I be missing out? aren't these gonna be 24 bit? or is it simply a codec change, but still comperable to ALAC?
 
Yeah, I know that, but won't I be missing out? aren't these gonna be 24 bit? or is it simply a codec change, but still comperable to ALAC?

Ah good point - but ALAC (and iTunes) supports 24bit in it's current format so if your source was 24bit you should still be good to go. If not - you could get a head start :p

The only catch being AirPlay will down sample ALAC to 16bit/44khz - but hopefully this will change when / if they introduce this.
 
Yay, there hasn't been too many lossy vs lossless arguments in this thread! I'm not sure why people who don't use lossless files would argue so vehemently against a new or higher bitrate lossless type, especially since they don't use it...

I like the idea of a 3-part file that could send the more lossy base, extended quality, or even lossless based on network conditions. However, I do believe it's a temporary fix. In a relatively short amount of time, we're not going to care how big the files are (at least for 16/44.1). Networks will be faster and storage will be bigger. The reason for "lossless" files (for non-audiophiles or people who claim to not hear a difference) is simply to preserve the integrity of the original sound file. It makes a lot of sense to distribute the audio as recorded - even if it 48/192 or higher.
 
So now we ll have to buy again from the AAC compressed crap they VE been selling so far?
 
Although I'm a long time Apple user I really am distressed Apple is not supporting FLAC. Basically they want to control music sales. FLACs are open.

It would be a terrible shame if the computer business ever standardized on a closed source like Apple's. Fewer machines would be capable of playback.

ALAC has been open source now for a few months, although I believe there have been compatible implementations of it for years anyway.

http://alac.macosforge.org/
 
ALAC supports 16 AND 24 bit, with up to 8 channels, and it's lossless, I don't really know how they could do better by creating a NEW codec, instead of retrofitting DTS-HD style core and lossless layers.
 
Very cool! Let's see some lossless compression, please! That is, at "full quality" mode.
 
Good news: high quality audio streaming.

Bad news: Apple will fail to spread it and make it a standard because it will once again be restricted to few Apple devices
 
I'm excited for this! I'm on Windows 7 (PC) and I use iTunes as my main audio player with WASAPI enabled. I have been waiting to have this happen for a while. :D
 
Theoretically, what's better: If "Mastered for iTunes" files for us to buy on iTunes will be 24bit/96kHz but lossy VERSUS Apple Lossless (from a CD) that's 16bit/44kHz and lossless? Apple Lossless (ALAC) would sound like a CD. "Mastered for iTunes" has a better bit depth of 24 bit and a better sample rate of 96kHz than a CD, but "Mastered for iTunes" is lossy.

Ideally, the best would be 24/96 and lossless, which I believe is the same as the studio digital master, correct?

BTW, if Apple were to offer in the future 24/96 lossless, would that, could that also be called Apple Lossless (ALAC)? Or would another name for the format be needed? Can I now rip a SACD that's 24bit/96kHz into ALAC format into iTunes?

Thanks!
 
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I happen to agree with Apple's choices of closed, efficient, simple and stable standards, over open standards.

LOL what. Hate to burst your monopolistic bubble, but AAC is an open standard. I'm not even sure that Apple was part of the original standards group. And guess what, even your evil Flash Player can play AAC files too.

Open standards are good things. If Apple developed a truly-closed music format, you'd only be able to play them on (some) Apple products. Maybe that's all you care about, but compatibility with other services and products is important for most people.
 
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