Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

MrGimper

macrumors G3
Sep 22, 2012
8,445
11,689
Andover, UK
Does this mean that a batch of phones have a better quality FaceID system than others?

Can see it now.... how can I tell if I have the good TrueDepth camera system, or the gimped/compromise one

Samsung/TSMC SoC, Qualcomm/Intel Modems, all over again....
 

Piggie

macrumors G3
Feb 23, 2010
9,109
3,974
A company reduces the accuracy of their key feature just to be able to up their production? I don't believe this for a second. It would be utterly stupid if they did this.

The point is, internally when it comes to manufacturing and company secret decisions internally, 99.9% of the time the public will never know.

It's like how do the public know Face ID is more accurate than touch ID ?
Because the company promoting/wishing to sell the product tell us so ?

Would you believe this in general for products, or would you wish to read independent information?

"Good Enough" is what things always are with physical product.
Companies don't wish to over spec items beyond what's needed as it's a waste of their time.

I've been in enough meeting over this, with GOOD working being moaned at by the Boss Man.

Customer says they want wood cut between 11.5 and 12.5 inches long.
A caring person, tried his best all day to keep the machine adjusted to produce wood length as near to 12.0 inches.
But he takes a little longer than someone who is cutting wood next to him, with it varying an inch between the 11.5 to 12.5 the customer wants/needs.

It''s good enough for the customer is all that matters to the Boss Man.
You, being a caring worker who wishes to product the best you can, are in the wrong.
 

SwissGuy93

macrumors 6502
Sep 16, 2016
371
355
Here is the deal guys: Yes the specs might have been lowered. We do not know that, and probably never will. What we know is: Apple claimed 1:1'000'000 in terms of false positives. So there is no way that Apple has change the number significantly. That would be so easily indictable as they use the same statement on the website. That is why I don't the point of this clickbait article. Yes, companies reduce the specs. But you have to see that most companies work with 110% specs so that they are sure that they get the quality they want. So reducing it is a normal procedure.
So, calm down, clutch your pearls and get ready for a crazy pre-order rush on Friday.
 

shaunp

Cancelled
Nov 5, 2010
1,811
1,395
How times have changed. Not just Apple, but the whole industry. Apple was the only company that avoided the race to the bottom - producing lots of cheap stuff rather than quality. Now it appears to be trying to produce a load of expensive stuff but too quickly, and sacrificing quality as a result. This theme is the same across the whole industry, everyone wants everything NOW. It doesn't matter if you are wanting the cheapest or the most expensive on the market, it must be NOW. We have no patience for anything and as a result, quality is going down.
 

SwissGuy93

macrumors 6502
Sep 16, 2016
371
355
Does this mean that a batch of phones have a better quality FaceID system than others?

Can see it now.... how can I tell if I have the good TrueDepth camera system, or the gimped/compromise one

Samsung/TSMC SoC, Qualcomm/Intel Modems, all over again....
That is why I hate reports like that. IT is unfounded gossip. Bloomberg themselves said that it is very possible that the user will never experience a difference.
[doublepost=1508928999][/doublepost]
How times have changed. Not just Apple, but the whole industry. Apple was the only company that avoided the race to the bottom - producing lots of cheap stuff rather than quality. Now it appears to be trying to produce a load of expensive stuff but too quickly, and sacrificing quality as a result. This theme is the same across the whole industry, everyone wants everything NOW. It doesn't matter if you are wanting the cheapest or the most expensive on the market, it must be NOW. We have no patience for anything and as a result, quality is going down.
I am pretty sure that Apple didn't say: Oh let's deliver the worst quality ever. Loosening the specs does not mean that the quality will be inherently worse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5105973

Kabeyun

macrumors 68040
Mar 27, 2004
3,410
6,347
Eastern USA
Good grief this thing sounds delicate. Wait for the show when the YouTubers starts poking and picking at it and, finally, dropping it. All glass with all of these delicate little sensors and projectors. :confused:
Truth. With its RhinoShield bumper on, I can confidently drop my iPhone 8 six feet onto concrete. I wonder what that’d do to the micrometer tolerances of the iPhone X’s FaceID module.
 
Last edited:

MartialEagle

macrumors newbie
Aug 2, 2016
21
10
Someone needs to email Craig. Though he is software I’m curious if he responds. Doesn’t seem like Apple, but who knows?
 

iPhysicist

macrumors 65816
Nov 9, 2009
1,343
1,004
Dresden
This is the same company that couldn't figure out touch ID under the screen but just went ahead with it anyway.
[doublepost=1508927749][/doublepost]

Just like every article about the design and notch of the iPhone X has no basis right.

Maybe they scrapped the idea in favor of Face ID! Why having both if the latter-one is way faster and more secure?
 

SwissGuy93

macrumors 6502
Sep 16, 2016
371
355
Wow, if true, that's a bummer.
First if the sensor is so fragile, will it go out of spec during normal wear and tear of the phone?

Secondly, Apple seems to keep making questionable choices, like adding FaceID when no one asked for it, there was no need and its inferior to TouchID. It may be superior in time, but it seems the technology is not ready for primetime yet.
How would you know now? Oh, based on some glorified rumours and gossip? Sure, seems reasonable. There is a difference between producing a fragile component and wear and tear. A display panel, motherboard etc. is also VERY fragile while not assembled or during the production phase. It's not like a phone is made out of marble and now has chinese porcelain components. Everything is fragile in a phone.
 

Ntombi

macrumors 68040
Jul 1, 2008
3,789
1,601
Bostonian exiled in SoCal
... And we still do not have an answer as to how the iPhone will handle glasses etc.

Yes we do. We’ve had answers to that question since the keynote, and it’s been discussed ad nauseam here.

Glasses and sunglasses will be fine, as long as they don’t specifically block infrared light. Polarized lenses are fine. The vast majority of glasses do not block infrared rays, so almost all will be fine.
 

SwissGuy93

macrumors 6502
Sep 16, 2016
371
355
If this was real, wouldn't that void the accuracy with Apple Pay? I mean the banks would want the sensors to be 100% accurate for the transactions. Doesn't make sense in doing some compromises to increase the production of your flagship device.

Dunno but I find this thread as a click bait.
There is never a 100% accuracy with anything. The false positiv rate of Touch ID was 1:50'000 which is still industry leading. But Face ID has a false positiv rate of 1:1'000'000. And Apple would never compromise on the security of Face ID. A spec change doesn't inherently mean that it's less secure.
 

shaunp

Cancelled
Nov 5, 2010
1,811
1,395
That is why I hate reports like that. IT is unfounded gossip. Bloomberg themselves said that it is very possible that the user will never experience a difference.
[doublepost=1508928999][/doublepost]
I am pretty sure that Apple didn't say: Oh let's deliver the worst quality ever. Loosening the specs does not mean that the quality will be inherently worse.
They don't, but compromises are often made to get stuff out of the door when in the past they wouldn't have been because there was a time when Apple wasn't just about profit. The quality of the product came first.
 
  • Like
Reactions: maurom

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,415
43,304
How would you know now? Oh, based on some glorified rumours and gossip?
I don't, I'm just posting a concern, that's all.

There is a difference between producing a fragile component and wear and tear
In some cases, yes, in other cases perhaps not. Just consider how the new butterfly keyboard is failing in the MBPs, as a prime example.

I'm not saying it will, if you re-read my post, I asked if it would go out of spec due to usage. I think given this news story, its a fair question, though I admit there's no way to answer such a query.
 

Bacillus

Suspended
Jun 25, 2009
2,681
2,200
Do you really think that Apple would announce something and than not hold the promise? IF there are it is less acurate, which is not proven yet, as it is only a report, Apple would have made the decision before the presentation. They can not put up a flashy keynote slide that says 1:1'000'000 and not deliver that. That would be a liability which users could sue over.
That would make for an awesome courtcase (testing that many faces...) that they may want to avoid.
So I'm certainly looking forward to their updated security claims...
 

Jsameds

Suspended
Apr 22, 2008
3,525
7,987
They don't, but compromises are often made to get stuff out of the door when in the past they wouldn't have been because there was a time when Apple wasn't just about profit. The quality of the product came first.

And that mantra very nearly drove them into the ground.
 

BootsWalking

macrumors 68020
Feb 1, 2014
2,267
14,181
This is just clickbait on Bloomberg's part IMO. Unnamed source said Apple reduces quality.

Baseless accusations I think. Just trying to get a few ad views from the hype/rumours.

This is Bloomberg, not some published-in-the-home-basement online rag. They have very high journalistic standards for sourcing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: arkitect

Wowereit

macrumors 6502a
Feb 1, 2016
963
1,483
Germany
If this was real, wouldn't that void the accuracy with Apple Pay? I mean the banks would want the sensors to be 100% accurate for the transactions. Doesn't make sense in doing some compromises to increase the production of your flagship device.

Haha, the banks have been so hilarious with their arguments for trying to block payment systems like Apple Pay.
They were "worried" about the security of Touch ID, they were "worried" about the security of Android fingerprint scanners and they are probably "worried" about Face ID as well - while their own system is based on a 4 digit code or a signature no one is going to look at.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RickInHouston

WatchFromAfar

Suspended
Jan 26, 2017
1,588
1,583
If this was real, wouldn't that void the accuracy with Apple Pay? I mean the banks would want the sensors to be 100% accurate for the transactions.
No, you can use Apple Pay with a passcode and I can tell anyone my passcode so banks don't care about accuracy for transactions.
 

roeiz

macrumors 65816
Sep 13, 2010
1,107
635
this is bad. i wonder how secure the first shipment buyers will feel...
 

BootsWalking

macrumors 68020
Feb 1, 2014
2,267
14,181
This article does not, at all, explain its own headline. It does go into new detail about the problem of low yields. It does not explain anything about Apple’s alleged reduced accuracy demands of FaceID nor how that would/could boost yields. Neither does the Bloomberg piece. It may be true. It may not. But the article doesn’t explain its own title. Basic premise of journalism, unless your goal is to fan flames or get clicks.

Also, the Bloomberg article concludes with the statement, “Signs of weakness in iPhone 8 sales means Apple could sell fewer handsets than last year—despite all the fanfare surrounding the iPhone X.” The reason iPhone 8 sales are relatively weak is because customers are waiting for the X, according to analysts. More bad journalism.

From the article:

"The dot projector is at the heart of Apple’s production problems. In September, the Wall Street Journal reported that Apple was having trouble producing the modules that combine to make the dot projector, causing shortages. The dot projector uses something called a vertical cavity surface-emitting laser, or VCSEL. The laser beams light through a lens known as a wafer-level optic, which focuses it into the 30,000 points of infra-red light projected onto the user’s face. The laser is made of gallium arsenide, a semiconductor material, and the lens is constructed of glass; both are fragile and easily broken. Precision is key. If the microscopic components are off by even several microns, a fraction of a hair’s breadth, the technology might not work properly, according to people with knowledge of the situation."

...

"The fragility of the components created problems for LG Innotek Co. and Sharp Corp., both of which struggled to combine the laser and lens to make dot projectors. At one point only about 20 percent of the dot projectors the two companies produced were usable, according to a person familiar with the manufacturing process. LG Innotek and Sharp slowed the production process down in an effort to prevent breakages and ensure the components were assembled with the required level of precision. "

...

"To boost the number of usable dot projectors and accelerate production, Apple relaxed some of the specifications for Face ID, according to a different person with knowledge of the process. As a result, it took less time to test completed modules, one of the major sticking points, the person said."
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.