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Yeah...just like Apple's music player and smart phone were overpriced and thus predicted to fail.

Yeppers... Apple, one of the most successful companies on the globe with 150,000 employees worldwide has no idea what they're doing.
I do not think the situation is analogous.

Cars have been manufactured in large volumes for a century. Almost all modern manufacturing concepts have been created in the car industry (see "Toyota Production System"). The product has been essentially the same for a century, and even its main components (four wheels, engine, steering system) have remained the same. In case someone wants to disagree by saying that EVs are new, please have a look at Detroit Electric.

All development in the car industry has been evolution, not revolution. On the other hand, Apple has been operating in quickly evolving fields where decade-old technology is outdated and where completely new concepts have been developed. A smart phone has very little in common with the old landline.

Consumers are willing to pay a few dollars' or euros' premium for a nice smartphone, the "Apple tax". However, the absolute amount of money compared to typical consumers' income is not that high. (I once calculated that replacing my phone with Apple's top model every two years costs me about one dollar/euro per day. Rich, eh?) But cars are another story, most people just cannot pay 20 % extra for a car with a nicer badge.

Car prices are determined by fierce competition. If you take cars with similar specifications (size, performance, EV range, refinement), you end up having cars with similar price tags. The market for real luxury cars is different but insignificant in the larger scale.

Apple has been able to collect a lot of money with mobile devices because it has a superior infrastructure. But is there any opportunity to do the same with cars? Tesla has tried to create a great charging infrastructure for EVs, but the advantage is melting due to other charging networks and legislators wanting to have as many public chargers as possible.

Apple could make a great UX for a car, no doubt. But that is not the same as car manufacturing. It is possible Apple sees an opportunity there, but there are good arguments against that business model, as well.

If Apple were able to create a functional self-driving car, that would be a real game changer. Many different business models could become possible. But why would Apple be the one to do that? There are dozens of companies working on AVs, and the goal seems to be very far. There are very few level 3 cars in the world, and we should be talking about level 5 or very advanced level 4. There has been little progress during the last few years.

My guess is that from Apple's point of view the car market is just too big to be out of. Apple tries to find possible business models, technologies and collaborators without having a clear target at this point.
 
Deal with it guys.....AppleCar is probably going to be Korean.....


And that’s a good thing.
Another possibility would be China.

Koreans have great car manufacturing technology and they produce well thought-out EVs. Hyundai Ioniq is one of the most energy-efficient EVs, Hyundai Kona follows the suit, and Hyundai Ioniq 5 / Kia EV6 is going to give Tesla Y a run for its money. While it seems that the Hyundai—Apple axis disconnected some time ago (at least for time being), the technology network is there.

The Chinese are very fast learners, and China is a huge EV market. Their technology is improving fast, and the new domestic Chinese EVs start to trickle to western markets. Maxus may not be that familiar a name, but many people recognise Polestar (Geely). There are well-known geopolitical challenges in technological cooperation with the Chinese, but I do not think Apple has excluded that direction, either.

European manufacturers — especially VW group — invest heavily into EVs, but it is quite difficult to see an Apple car manufactured by VW in Darmstadt. Even good ol' GM would be a more probable partner.
 
I do not think the situation is analogous.

Cars have been manufactured in large volumes for a century. Almost all modern manufacturing concepts have been created in the car industry (see "Toyota Production System"). The product has been essentially the same for a century, and even its main components (four wheels, engine, steering system) have remained the same. In case someone wants to disagree by saying that EVs are new, please have a look at Detroit Electric.

All development in the car industry has been evolution, not revolution. On the other hand, Apple has been operating in quickly evolving fields where decade-old technology is outdated and where completely new concepts have been developed. A smart phone has very little in common with the old landline.

Consumers are willing to pay a few dollars' or euros' premium for a nice smartphone, the "Apple tax". However, the absolute amount of money compared to typical consumers' income is not that high. (I once calculated that replacing my phone with Apple's top model every two years costs me about one dollar/euro per day. Rich, eh?) But cars are another story, most people just cannot pay 20 % extra for a car with a nicer badge.

Car prices are determined by fierce competition. If you take cars with similar specifications (size, performance, EV range, refinement), you end up having cars with similar price tags. The market for real luxury cars is different but insignificant in the larger scale.

Apple has been able to collect a lot of money with mobile devices because it has a superior infrastructure. But is there any opportunity to do the same with cars? Tesla has tried to create a great charging infrastructure for EVs, but the advantage is melting due to other charging networks and legislators wanting to have as many public chargers as possible.

Apple could make a great UX for a car, no doubt. But that is not the same as car manufacturing. It is possible Apple sees an opportunity there, but there are good arguments against that business model, as well.

If Apple were able to create a functional self-driving car, that would be a real game changer. Many different business models could become possible. But why would Apple be the one to do that? There are dozens of companies working on AVs, and the goal seems to be very far. There are very few level 3 cars in the world, and we should be talking about level 5 or very advanced level 4. There has been little progress during the last few years.

My guess is that from Apple's point of view the car market is just too big to be out of. Apple tries to find possible business models, technologies and collaborators without having a clear target at this point.
Apple has been stepping away from Pro-Consumer for a few years. A car is straight back into Pro-Consumer territory so it only makes sense for Apple to make a car that everyone can afford. And i don't think their business model can accommodate that at present. If they can get a car out for £150 a month rental with an upgrade path then maybe but that's a long way off. All or nothing with Apple doesn't seem to be much in-between.
 
And I think that Apple can come in under the price of the Teslas and snipe them. There is room for a well engineered all electric car that would be at a price below the mid/high Tesla models IMO. Heck, Apple could come out with a car double the price of a Tesla, and it will sell...
A cheap Apple product? That would be the first.
 
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Aren't they kind of doing that already with CarPlay? If Apple decided not to build its own car, I would think a "self-driving" addition to CarPlay would be the next-best way for Apple to push into that space. Not saying that Apple is headed that way - at least the major car manufacturers won't outsource such an essential component in their bread & butter business - but smaller car makers that don't have the expertise or resources to pursue self-driving capabilities just might.

I think Apple will try to build a whole car. The alternatives smack of Apple's TV box "failure". Apple should have built an entire TV set rather than an overpriced add-on box that simply duplicates what other streaming boxes do (in some cases better) and new TVs have built-in. If Apple had built a whole TV set, it could have differentiated itself on the whole TV UI experience and integrated with other Apple hardware (e.g. built-in HomePod or even an AirPort router) and services (e.g. Music & Photos). Most people in Apple's target demographic want less wires and boxes under their show-piece TVs, not more. The same holds for an Apple Car: simply providing CarPlay - even with autopilot added - isn't allowing Apple's integration prowess to shine.
I agree. I do not think Apple wants to become the generic Car OS, like Windows to PC’s or Android to Smartphones.
So my humble thoughts on your question “Aren’t they already doing that with CarPlay?” Is that CarPlay exists solely to bolster Apple Music and Siri adoption. I don’t think Apple “enjoys” creating CarPlay for other companies vehicles but they feel if they didn’t they would be dooming these Services.

Another example that I believe backs this up is them creating the Apple TV app for other streaming devices. Surely it kills them to do that but they know Apple TV+ has no chance of survival without it.
 
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Its never going to happen and if it does it will be a complete failure. Ive been a huge Apple fan for 30 years but the drip feed of intentional gimped hardware over that time has worm me down to the point that I now actually dispise modern Apple.

I could definitely see them pulling off an Apple car on every street that you share ownership of and is upgraded every few years...but not a one-off consumer purchase model. As its fine paying a bit more for a phone but scale that premium up into a car and it makes no sense.
One man's 'intentionally gimped hardware' is another man's focused and usable hardware. Maybe you're more of a Windows or Linux man and ought to look there rather than make yourself miserable over 30 years?

The phrase 'but scale that premium up into a car and it makes no sense' sounds nice, but without explanation has zero meaning. Apple's 'bit of a premium' isn't exactly a premium when compared to other top-end phones from Samsung and others - they all charge around $1k. If you look at top-end EVs, they're around $70-90k. It would make perfect sense for Apple to sell an iCar in that range.
 
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One man's 'intentionally gimped hardware' is another man's focused and usable hardware. Maybe you're more of a Windows or Linux man and ought to look there rather than make yourself miserable over 30 years?

The phrase 'but scale that premium up into a car and it makes no sense' sounds nice, but without explanation has zero meaning. Apple's 'bit of a premium' isn't exactly a premium when compared to other top-end phones from Samsung and others - they all charge around $1k. If you look at top-end EVs, they're around $70-90k. It would make perfect sense for Apple to sell an iCar in that range.
The world doesn't need another overpriced EV. In fact, that space is overly saturated. The world needs an affordable EV that everyone can afford in a world of rampant inflation and Fossil Fuel Tax. Tesla looks like the only company that can do this. Maybe VW but neither seem to want to enter the super affordable end of the spectrum and most affordable EVs (renault Zoe as an example) have no desirability. Price will be key for the masses as Diesels and Petrols will be heavily taxed going forward.
 
The world doesn't need another overpriced EV. In fact, that space is overly saturated. The world needs an affordable EV that everyone can afford in a world of rampant inflation and Fossil Fuel Tax. Tesla looks like the only company that can do this. Maybe VW but neither seem to want to enter the super affordable end of the spectrum and most affordable EVs (renault Zoe as an example) have no desirability. Price will be key for the masses as Diesels and Petrols will be heavily taxed going forward.

Come on, give me a break. Apple doesn't care what you think the world needs nor is it trying to serve the world's needs - never has been. Like any business, it's out to make money - and the profit margins are higher, the higher up one goes into the 'luxury' space. The way Apple probably sees it, VW, Toyota, etc. can be the "Android" of the EV world and sell to the masses - there are plenty of cars to be sold in the $60k+ range.

The space you think is saturated is growing at a high percentage - just look at Tesla: most of its sales are for cars above $50k. It's got over a million buyers lined up for the Cybertruck - mostly for the 4wd and tri-motor versions, which are $60-70k.
 
A cheap Apple product? That would be the first.

HAH! No kidding, but I'm sure Tesla is making bank on each car. Apple could go one of two ways, lower, or higher, obviously, and if they went lower, they would push Tesla to cut their prices, and would set a price point for the electric car that could drive further adoption of them. *Could*...

But there is the other side: Apple could 'do electric cars right',or maybe 'righter', like they did with the MP3 player market, where they were not the cheapest, but the best. So they really rock the design, and nail it to the wall, and then even if they are higher priced, people buy them. Would you buy a car-b-que that could light up your garage, and also flame up because you hit something on the road, or were rear ended, or buy an Apple Car (insert loud empowering music) and have The Car that we all should be driving?

There is room for improvement. I had a Prius. It was surprisingly roomy, which was a good thing. The models out that year couldn't take a trailer hitch, so no bike rack, but my bike actually fit in the back well. (If someone notices a Barcelona Red that has black tread shapped scuff marks on the back of the passenger seat, it could be mine) I finally traded it in on a *cough* FJ Cruiser. And boy do I miss the gas mileage of that Prius.

IF Apple can design and engineer, and their OEM manufacture it well, Apple *could* own the electric car market.

But there will always be people that won't buy 'any Apple product', like a friend that refused to buy one, and suffer with a really crappy MP3 player, only to bite it and end up buying one eventually. Some teased him, but I just welcomed him to the family. 'We have cookies!'😆😆😆😆:cool:
 
Come on, give me a break. Apple doesn't care what you think the world needs nor is it trying to serve the world's needs - never has been. Like any business, it's out to make money - and the profit margins are higher, the higher up one goes into the 'luxury' space. The way Apple probably sees it, VW, Toyota, etc. can be the "Android" of the EV world and sell to the masses - there are plenty of cars to be sold in the $60k+ range.

The space you think is saturated is growing at a high percentage - just look at Tesla: most of its sales are for cars above $50k. It's got over a million buyers lined up for the Cybertruck - mostly for the 4wd and tri-motor versions, which are $60-70k.
Im saying the world needs a cheap EV it doesn't need another expensive EV that only the 1% can afford. If Apple wants to get into the same space as Tesla & Audi then so be it, but it's not what the world needs, and under Steve Jobs Apple used to be a visionary company and not just another pillar of unnecessary capitalism.
 
Im saying the world needs a cheap EV it doesn't need another expensive EV that only the 1% can afford. If Apple wants to get into the same space as Tesla & Audi then so be it, but it's not what the world needs, and under Steve Jobs Apple used to be a visionary company and not just another pillar of unnecessary capitalism.

Well, it's interesting. At the same time this electric car thang is playing out, the electric bike thang is too. Specialized has chomped down on the 'e-bike' pretty hard, and makes a whole bunch of them. In the higher price points. Their least expensive road bike seems to be $7,000! Their least expensive MTB is $5,500, and their 'active' bikes start at $3250.

Not exactly inexpensive. They are selling well, if people can find them.

People will pay more for an Apple car, I'd wager than they would for a Tesla. Tesla has acquired a rather checkered past, with fires, crashes, shorts, famous comments from their CEO, etc.

Apple, if they get to market quickly, could have a chance at taking some/most of the market. I'd like to see what Apple brings out, and would consider it. Time will tell. Who knows, Apple may just whiff it, and end up not doing anything in the vehicle market. (They could do an e-bike! That would be awesome! A portable MP3 playing, display equipped bike)
 
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look at Tesla: most of its sales are for cars above $50k. It's got over a million buyers lined up for the Cybertruck - mostly for the 4wd and tri-motor versions, which are $60-70k.

And Aztec owners are probably saying 'DON'T DO IT!' The Tesla truck is the ugliest thing I've ever seen on four wheels, and I remember the Aztec, VW's 'The Thing', the majority of the AMC products, plus the Chevette, the Yugo, the Arrow...
 
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That would be quite unlike the rest of their business though. Everything else is high margin consumer goods whereas becoming an OEM to other car manufacturers is the complete opposite.
Subscriptions are high margin products. That will be the future transportation model.
 
Other than wasting a lot of money, Apple Car is not going to make any splash. It doesn’t have anything new to offer, but is just trying to catch up with Google. Apple is never good at catching up.
 
Subscriptions are high margin products. That will be the future transportation model.

I could definitely see them pulling off an Apple car on every street that you share ownership of and is upgraded every few years...but not a one-off consumer purchase model. As its fine paying a bit more for a phone but scale that premium up into a car and it makes no sense.

You mean what Canoo ($GOEV) is doing? Apple tried to acquire Canoo last year. They even recently poached Canoo's CEO.

 
Im saying the world needs a cheap EV it doesn't need another expensive EV that only the 1% can afford. If Apple wants to get into the same space as Tesla & Audi then so be it, but it's not what the world needs, and under Steve Jobs Apple used to be a visionary company and not just another pillar of unnecessary capitalism.
I'm saying that the world doesn't need Apple to provide cheap EVs. It's already getting them.

Here in the US, the average ICE car sells for $41k. There are already several EVs below that - the Nissan Leaf Plus I own is one, but Kia, Hyundai, and Chevy also have EVs below that average price. Not sure if the VW ID.3 is out yet, but that will be as well.

Steve Jobs may have headed a visionary company, but its products have *never* been cheap. That strategy has worked for Apple - and there's no reason it should change with EVs, should they choose to build one. One thing that is under appreciated is how Apple's premium products help to drive the price down for other products in the same market - simply because the scale at which Apple orders parts causes parts manufacturers to be able to scale up as well. So in the EV space, Apple selling a million expensive cars to 1%ers could actually make EVs overall cheaper.
 
The world does need self driving cars. I believe Apple will do a fantastic job at that.

Too soon. I've heard people talking about self flying planes! WAY WAY WAY TOO SOON!

One of the vendors I use has a huge warehouse with 'self driving' forklifts. They had to put wires in the floor, and connect each one to a special controller that apparently pulses them, and these 'self driving' things center on the pulse.

So, who pays to put wires in the millions of miles of asphalt to make sure that a 'sef driving' car doesn't drive the occupants into a bridge abutment, or off a cliff, etc... And what insures that those aren't turned into a self-guided weapon?

So many questions. So many issues.
 
And Aztec owners are probably saying 'DON'T DO IT!' The Tesla truck is the ugliest thing I've ever seen on four wheels, and I remember the Aztec, VW's 'The Thing', the majority of the AMC products, plus the Chevette, the Yugo, the Arrow...
To each their own - My wife and I had our $100 deposit in since the day ordering started :) (the only car, other than Mercedes G-class SUVs she has ever been enthusiastic over.)
BTW, I hated the look of all those other cars you mentioned....except maybe AMC - didn't they produce the DeLorean?...never mind - that was DMC :)
 
It is no where comparable situation. People can say “Well I will spent a couple of hundred dollars more to get the best of the best smartphone out there” but they cant say “I will defintey spent a few tens of thousand of dollars more for this most premium Apple vehicle”. Buying a car is one of the most significant expenditures people usually face in their lifes (after housing and colleage). People wont morgage their lifes for Apple product, unless the Apple’s car can fly, and even then it will be a hard sell. Apple is building premium products. I really cant see how they can pull a reasonable priced car thats worth having Apple logo on it, unless they have an out of this world battery technology in their sleevs.
 
It is no where comparable situation. People can say “Well I will spent a couple of hundred dollars more to get the best of the best smartphone out there” but they cant say “I will defintey spent a few tens of thousand of dollars more for this most premium Apple vehicle”. Buying a car is one of the most significant expenditures people usually face in their lifes (after housing and colleage). People wont morgage their lifes for Apple product, unless the Apple’s car can fly, and even then it will be a hard sell. Apple is building premium products. I really cant see how they can pull a reasonable priced car thats worth having Apple logo on it, unless they have an out of this world battery technology in their sleevs.

A premium Apple car won't have to cost tens of thousands of dollars more for it to be premium - but even if it were, people do pay tens of thousands more for this 'most significant expenditure after housing and college' all the time. You can buy a Kia or Hyundai for under $20k - yet the most popular car on American roads in 2020 was the F-series truck from Ford, costing at least twice that. Heck, the *average* American car now costs twice that. If people are willing to say, "Well, I will spend $20k more on this F-150 than this Kia", why wouldn't they be able to say, "Well, I will spend $30k more for this Apple EV"? Premium does not mean most expensive either. Apple's iPhones aren't the most expensive smart phones you can buy. Their watches aren't the most expensive ones you can buy. Their EV won't be the most expensive car you can buy either. I bet Apple sold their car in the $50-70k range, they would attract a lot of buyers that would normally buy an Audi, Mercedes, and Tesla. And it would attract a lot of new buyers that would normally not spring for a $70k car, given how well it'll integrate with all their other iDevices.

Yes, $70k is a big buy. But money is cheap these days - I had the money to buy the new Leaf Plus when it came out in 2018, but Nissan had this 3-year 0% financing plan that made it a no-brainer. That car, incidentally, at $43k, was more expensive than my parents' house when they bought it in 1980. Interest rates, back then, were 10% and their mortgage payment would have been higher than my car payment (had they spread it over 3 years instead of 30).
 
To each their own - My wife and I had our $100 deposit in since the day ordering started :) (the only car, other than Mercedes G-class SUVs she has ever been enthusiastic over.)
BTW, I hated the look of all those other cars you mentioned....except maybe AMC - didn't they produce the DeLorean?...never mind - that was DMC :)

But ugly is so subjective. My car makes some people nauseous. *shrug*

I was excited about the Tesla cars, and seeing the truck too.
 
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